Daddywarcrimes Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I'd posit that the Wolves aren't that different in 40,000 versus what they were in 30000. The thing that has changed is the Imperium. Their loyalty was always to the Emperor as a man, with Russ as the conduit to that. The Imperium has abandoned what it once was and now expects the Chapters to bend their knee to the High Lords and their new plan rather than adhere to their Legionary oaths to the Emperor and his original vision. That's why the same legion that slew a world who refused to come to compliance could wind up in open war with both the Ecclisiarchy and the Inquisition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3162316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
elithren Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 Building off of the Alpha male mentality, it is possible that Horus left them asside in with the intent of them joining him later on and be his trump card over the other legions. Since the Allfather beat Russ, the Allfather was the BadA of the galaxy and the wolves followed him. It's possible that Horus thought that if he beat the Allfather, he would take his place as BadA of the galaxy and thus earn Russ' allegiance out of the concept of the alpha is replaced by a new alpha and the pack follows him without question (common wolf culture). That may explain why Horus rushed the confrontation with the Allfather, as the wolves were coming. He had to have a higher motive to it cause if he had succeeded in killing the Allfather and the Wolves and DA showed up, that's alot of pissed off marines going against Horus unless he knew that he would have held sway over at least one of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3162418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Building off of the Alpha male mentality, it is possible that Horus left them asside in with the intent of them joining him later on and be his trump card over the other legions. Since the Allfather beat Russ, the Allfather was the BadA of the galaxy and the wolves followed him. It's possible that Horus thought that if he beat the Allfather, he would take his place as BadA of the galaxy and thus earn Russ' allegiance out of the concept of the alpha is replaced by a new alpha and the pack follows him without question (common wolf culture). That may explain why Horus rushed the confrontation with the Allfather, as the wolves were coming. He had to have a higher motive to it cause if he had succeeded in killing the Allfather and the Wolves and DA showed up, that's alot of pissed off marines going against Horus unless he knew that he would have held sway over at least one of them. while i've had that tossed back at me when i mention the pack mentality, i think the stink of Chaos on Horus would prevent Russ from allying with him under any circumstances post-Davin. Russ's culture has a healthy fear/hatred of the malifarcum (or however its spelt) and shunned/killed those touched by it. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3162450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
truesonofruss Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Really reading through it all and what I know from fluff, it seems to me that Horus might just have been terrified of the repercussions of trying and failing at bringing the woves to him. We are the Emperor's executioners after all and it would seem to me that treason(high treason at that) would be a really good reason to have to wolves on your trail. I mean seriously after hearing about the Burning of Prospero who would want to face the wolves wrath? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3162465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Really reading through it all and what I know from fluff, it seems to me that Horus might just have been terrified of the repercussions of trying and failing at bringing the woves to him. We are the Emperor's executioners after all and it would seem to me that treason(high treason at that) would be a really good reason to have to wolves on your trail. I mean seriously after hearing about the Burning of Prospero who would want to face the wolves wrath? to be the devil's advocate, nobody outside of the Wolves called us the Emperor's executioners. so that may be a popular belief from within the Legion, but i have yet to see outside the legion refer to us as that. and Prospero was NOT a curb stomp of epic proportions it used to be painted as, but rather a tooth and nail battle that could have gone either way, and deservedly so. the T-Sons were fighting for their homes, and a cornered animal is the most dangerous. I would even go as far as saying that without the Sisters of Silence we may have been severly crippled after Prospero. now the Wolves were used to watch over Legions post Nikea (shown in "Fear to Tread"), but Swallows has already responding by saying that is more because Malcador knows of the Wolves anti-psyker bias and their relative ease of sacrifice (instead of using the Custodes for example) WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3162495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 triple post WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3162500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 triple post WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3162504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elazar The Glorified Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 In regards to the difference between 30k wolves and 40k wolves and doing the dirty jobs that the others don't work I think the major difference is outlined in the Space Wolves codex... It says that they don't respect power that is inherited or bestowed without having been earnt. So, if the Allfather who bested Russ orders that they must destroy a human world then so be it that's what they'll do. If the High Lords of Terra, or the Inquisition etc give the same order then they don't follow without question as they don't see these bodies as having gained their power on their own strength. So when you have situations such as after the first war for Armageddon and the population of Armageddon and the troops that fought there are ordered to be killed for what they witnessed all the Wolves see is a group of upstarts who were given their power because of who they know ordering the deaths of thousands of brave men and women that had fought alongside them for their freedom. I think if the Emperor had given the order then they'd have gone about it with the same grim determination that they had to go after Magnus and co. but instead it wasn't an order from the Allfather or Russ - somebody who had gained their position through their own might and merit - so they resisted as their respect went to those they'd seen demonstrate their own courage and strength in battle. As for the Heresy I don't think that Horus had to plan on how to deal with the Wolves or the Thousand Sons, I always got the impression that he was concerned about the might of both legions if they opposed him so them battering each other and removing themselves as an instant threat in the conflict was the perfect outcome for him but the seed of that were already in place before he fell to Chaos thanks to the machinations of the dark gods themselves. As it turned out the Thousand Sons came over to his side as they had nowhere else to go and the Wolves were kept out of the conflict by their distance from Terra and the intervention of the Alpha Legion but I'm sure if the final battle had gone differently Horus would have tried to convert Russ to his cause or would have had to have destroyed him - a challenge I'm sure nobody would have relished, not even Horus! ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3162540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
elithren Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 Important thing to remember is that the burning of Prospuro is technically before the Heresy so Horus would have known full well the status of the Space Wolves in the aftermath and would have had to have made a plan for them (he was a freaking good general) before he openly revolted against the Allfather. From Fear to tread, we know that the Burning happened before Sanguinious' run in with daemons, so alot of time would have passed before the Istvan drop massacre and the Burning that the legion would have had plenty of time to recover from losses sustained against the Sons. The main reason Prospuro happened was to drive the Sons to Tseentch, not so much to eliminate either of the two. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3162563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Volsung- Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Also note that the argument that the Wolves will still unquestioningly obey an order to wipe out human colonies in 40th millennium hinges on the assumption that they have not changed since the 30th millennium. If they have, then the possibility nevertheless exist that they might refuse an order even now, even if the one who gave the order earned their respect or not. If they have not, then it can be argued that they will obey any orders no matter how much they don't like it from a deserved leader, if this unquestioning loyalty is actually true of their 30th millennium identity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3162589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 As for the Heresy I don't think that Horus had to plan on how to deal with the Wolves or the Thousand Sons, I always got the impression that he was concerned about the might of both legions if they opposed him so them battering each other and removing themselves as an instant threat in the conflict was the perfect outcome for him but the seed of that were already in place before he fell to Chaos thanks to the machinations of the dark gods themselves. As it turned out the Thousand Sons came over to his side as they had nowhere else to go and the Wolves were kept out of the conflict by their distance from Terra and the intervention of the Alpha Legion but I'm sure if the final battle had gone differently Horus would have tried to convert Russ to his cause or would have had to have destroyed him - a challenge I'm sure nobody would have relished, not even Horus! :confused: Remember, Horus gave Russ to Kill Prospero vs Apprehend in one of the earlier books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3162621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nrthstar Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 And it's LemAn Russ...not lemon...our primarch is not named after a fruit... http://seemslegit.com/_images/3f4ce82cebfe36f3b864a09bb636c817/887%20-%20blood%20khorne%20lemons%20war%20warhammer-40k.jpg Couldn't help myself... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3162731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 just a quick note about those humans that got bushwacked by the wolves during the Heresy: they were not part of the emperium. the SW fight to defend the humans of the emperium. Those guys on Armageddon were part of the empire of men, and thus under the SW's protection. Them others weren't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3162825 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satanislav Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Why chaos didnt corrupt them ? Well, i always imagine the daemons looking through a warp hole at space wolves, thinking... Hmm, look at them, we dont have to even try to corrupt this ones, they are corrupted already ! lets move on... ( if you look at all the artworks, SW looks waaaay more corrupted/deformed then anybody else at that time( BOO, burn the heretic ! :) ) ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3163005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki-LaughingDeath Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 I think that you really need to look at the planets where the primarchs landed and grew up for that to be answered. Fenris is one of the most deadly worlds where humanity took root and it seems that technology wasn't able to keep up with what the planet handed the colonists. After a long period of decline yeah the humans fell into another dark age and the joke goes humanity is two hot meals away from barbarism.... Russ landed on Fenris and was shaped by the society's strengths and weaknesses. Kinda makes you wonder what would have happened if he had landed on McCragge or Caliban or Nocturne or Planus Mundi. Aside from all of that I think that it's fun to be looked down on by other players who are fluff driven and call me a barbarian, then slap the smack talk out of them on the table. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3163191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Volsung- Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Aside from all of that I think that it's fun to be looked down on by other players who are fluff driven and call me a barbarian, then slap the smack talk out of them on the table. Blood-suckers (or better yet, Mosquito), Cross-dressers, Smurfs, generics, "Who-Are-You-Again?", or "I-Never-Even-Heard-of-Your-Chapter" Any of the above should be suitable come-backs and should settle matters adequately! ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3163254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arez Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Aside from all of that I think that it's fun to be looked down on by other players who are fluff driven and call me a barbarian, then slap the smack talk out of them on the table. Blood-suckers (or better yet, Mosquito), Cross-dressers, Smurfs, generics, "Who-Are-You-Again?", or "I-Never-Even-Heard-of-Your-Chapter" Any of the above should be suitable come-backs and should settle matters adequately! which chapters are you talking about for the "who are you" and the "I never even" ones? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3163348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Volsung- Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Aside from all of that I think that it's fun to be looked down on by other players who are fluff driven and call me a barbarian, then slap the smack talk out of them on the table. Blood-suckers (or better yet, Mosquito), Cross-dressers, Smurfs, generics, "Who-Are-You-Again?", or "I-Never-Even-Heard-of-Your-Chapter" Any of the above should be suitable come-backs and should settle matters adequately! :P which chapters are you talking about for the "who are you" and the "I never even" ones? I dunno, I've never even heard of them... <__< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3163381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 While I would love to expand in the forum I don't think that it would be fair to those who have not read the book. Let's just say that to my perspective the traitor spit on all the traditions of the Wolves over greed. Hell even Bjorn stated that if he had found out the Tempering was finished along with Wyrdmake. Thanks Volsung that is about what I wanted to say. And your ideas on the conversion process are spot on. I know my memory is bad, but I don't recall the Tempering mentioned in Prospero Burns much, Now it was heavily focused on in The Fang I believe. But I'll admit my memory is bad and I need to go back and read them again to be sure. Wyrdmake was a hypocrite, whether consciously or not, but I didn't see him as a villain. ~BtW Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3163555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Brother 92 Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 I know my memory is bad, but I don't recall the Tempering mentioned in Prospero Burns much, Now it was heavily focused on in The Fang I believe. But I'll admit my memory is bad and I need to go back and read them again to be sure. Wyrdmake was a hypocrite, whether consciously or not, but I didn't see him as a villain. ~BtW The Tempering is a post-heresy thing, it's in 36M, Battle of The Fang only, it's not mentioned in either Prospero Burns or 1k Sons as Russ was still about - c'mon who would think that their view of the Wolves is better than that of their primarch - whilst he's still around?? It would've been interesting had the Tempering succeeded and not been obliterated by Magnus . Imagine what the wolves could do had we an empire like Ultramar... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3163696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 I know my memory is bad, but I don't recall the Tempering mentioned in Prospero Burns much, Now it was heavily focused on in The Fang I believe. But I'll admit my memory is bad and I need to go back and read them again to be sure. Wyrdmake was a hypocrite, whether consciously or not, but I didn't see him as a villain. ~BtW The Tempering is a post-heresy thing, it's in 36M, Battle of The Fang only, it's not mentioned in either Prospero Burns or 1k Sons as Russ was still about - c'mon who would think that their view of the Wolves is better than that of their primarch - whilst he's still around?? It would've been interesting had the Tempering succeeded and not been obliterated by Magnus . Imagine what the wolves could do had we an empire like Ultramar... That's what I had thought and why I was confused about Loki-Laughing Deaths response..... Did anyone else perceive Wyrdmake as a "villain"? I only ask because I didn't have that perception... What I did find interesting was that during Horus' delerium he saw the Thousand Sons who were trying to warn him as wolves. Any thoughts on this? ~BtW Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3164184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 I think there are some Legions that just couldn't be turned, I can't imagine Dorn turning for any reason nor Guilliman and neither would Russ. Horus and Lorgar used weaknesses and flaws within the primarchs to turn them. Angron's bitterness and anger at being taken from the battlefield while his fellow slaves where wiped out, Petuarbo's sense of betrayal and feelings of being used etc. What weakness and flaw does Russ have? He's loyal and he's happy to be loyal, he serves the Emperor because he loves and respects his father. The wulfen curse of the Wolves is not a weakness to be exploited and turned against him in the same way as Sanguinius' rage. Horus didn't try to turn Russ because Russ, like Guilliman and Dorn, simply couldn't be turned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3164841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki-LaughingDeath Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 The tempering was an affront to the heritage and traditions of the space wolves. It would have irrevocably changed the nature of the wolves by removing what makes them to begin with. Then to make things worse there are the platitudes on how it will make things better and change things to ensure the future of the wolves. Those little phrases don't sound familiar or dangerous do they? To me that is treason of the highest magnitude. I know that Russ would have never allowed it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3164879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Building off of the Alpha male mentality, it is possible that Horus left them asside in with the intent of them joining him later on and be his trump card over the other legions. Since the Allfather beat Russ, the Allfather was the BadA of the galaxy and the wolves followed him. It's possible that Horus thought that if he beat the Allfather, he would take his place as BadA of the galaxy and thus earn Russ' allegiance out of the concept of the alpha is replaced by a new alpha and the pack follows him without question (common wolf culture). I dont agree with this, Maybe its Wolf pack mentality in nature but Russ was not an animal. His loyalty was to the EMP, it was not just because the EMP beat him but because he saw the EMP for who he was, the leader/uniter of mankind. The Alpha theory is rubbish because according to that theory anybody who beat Russ or his wolves could then lead them, Oh look that demon prince of Corn (I know) just beat our wolf lord so now we will follow him because he is our new alpha, I think somebody has been watcing to much Teen Wolf with all this talk of Alphas, (probably me as thats what I am reminded of when i hear the term ALpha) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259788-space-wolves-during-the-hh/page/2/#findComment-3164955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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