Will the Alpha Legion ever fail?

[EdT]

I can't help but think that people are missing the central irony that stories involving the Alpha Legion hint at- that while they have incredible potential to manipulate the whole galaxy to their own ends, their methods are so secretive and conspiratorial that their plans always manage to precisely cancel each other out, and so actually their scheming is entirely futile and changes nothing.

 

The Serpent Beneath implied to me that the Legion is eventually going to collapse into a complicated and self-defeating mess of false flags and triple/quadruple agents, if it hasn't done so already- and that fits in perfectly with the tragic decline of the other traitor legions into self-indulgent parodies of their former selves.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Ok, so initially I had typed up a long post that, upon reflection, was somewhat inflammatory. So I'm starting over.

 

Stop hating on the Alpha Legion. They're not as ridiculous as you think.

 

Let me put it to you this way. Imagine the response of the community if I created a thread about how the Space Wolves were all Mary Sue-ish. Folks would coming crawling out of the woodwork to verbally berate me for insulting the Wolves. But when was the last time the Wolves didn't look cool doing something? Personally, I don't like the Wolves -- I feel the underlying concepts of the Chapter are moronic, given the setting we're working in -- but lots of people DO like them and will defend them to their dying breath despite the fact that they. Never. Lose.

 

- Ragnar Blackmane, a Blood Claw, has the quickest rise through the ranks in the history of any Space Marine unit, ever. In fact, he is so awesome, that he personally banished a Daemon Primarch with a single spear-throw.

 

- Logan Grimnar not only commanded the combined Space Marine Chapters during the 13th Black Crusade, but he also killed a Grey Knight Grand Master and got away with it! The Inquisition actually abides by the decree to stay away from Fenris? Really? Since when did the Inquisition do anything someone else told them to do?

 

- What else? Oh, there's the fact that despite having only a single Great Company defending the Fang, the entire massed strength of the Thousand Sons fail to take the fortress. Hmmm.

 

- Which leads us to another, recently debated topic: the Wolves did not abide by the Edict of Nikaea. . . and again, apparently got away with it. (By the way, I don't want to spawn that argument again, but you know and I know that that whole "poer of Fenris" thing is hokum.)

 

In fact, the only time I can remember that Space Wolves actually losing a battle were against the Red Corsairs (the Wolf of Fenris incident) and. . . . the Alpha Legion! (during the Heresy, at. . . Yarrant? Chondax? One of the two). Compared to the litany of defeats RapatoR posted, these two pale in comparison. So the next time you want to :D about a Legion never losing, don't look at the Alpha Legion. Just because they fight smart doesn't make them worthy of your scorn.

[Wade Garrett]

AL Lord IC gains THEY ARE ALL AROUND US ----500 PTS

Roll a d6. On the turn indicated by the number rolled ALL REMAINING ENEMY MODELS reveal they are actually Alpha Legion operatives. AL wins, Every 40K player present must shout "I am Alpharius" and cackle diabolically. Ensure you have alternative way of getting home.

so..HYDRA DOMINATUS!

 

Hmm...but what if both players are running Alpha Legion armies? WHAT THEN?!

No discusion of the Alpha Legion being overpowered is complete without mention of the short story (The Long Game at Carcharus?) where they infiltrated multiple generations worth of sleeper agents (everything from serfs and Scouts to Devastators) into the Red Consuls chapter and completely wiped them out.

[Bewlay]

I think people fail to see the bigger picture, the AL are good at what they are do (subterfuge, infiltration), they are as violent as the World Eaters or as tough as the Death Guard, but because of their specialty they don't allow themselves to get into those situations. And due to their meticulous planning every loss has a back up plan, small victory or alternative motive to justify it.

 

It doesn't mean they can't lose, it just means they are more flexible with failure.

[Brother Ambroz]

I think Deus summed it up pretty well. You can't really talk about how Mary Sue like the AL are without others bringing up several loyalist chapters.

[Mantras]

Surely, due to the majority of the clandestine nature of the Alpha Legion, you will never hear about the majority of their operations, and therefore of their failures.

 

PLUS, remember this: At this point in the books, we know the AL are trying to facilitate Horus winning. Seems like a pretty big failure right there...

[A D-B]

- Logan Grimnar not only commanded the combined Space Marine Chapters during the 13th Black Crusade, but he also killed a Grey Knight Grand Master and got away with it! The Inquisition actually abides by the decree to stay away from Fenris? Really? Since when did the Inquisition do anything someone else told them to do?

 

"The Inquisition" doesn't really exist, especially not in those unified terms. And in the example you're using, they make it very clear that one day there'll be a reckoning. The Wolves don't just get away with it, beyond the fact the Inquisition forces are in an untenable position at the time, and just pimp-slapping a First Founding Chapter is a bit like threatening to dig up and pee all over a saint's bones.

 

So the reckoning may well come. It just hasn't come yet. There's no time frame on irrational revenge.

 

(Sorry. It's just anyone comparing my writing to Ragnar Blackmane made me throw up acid and sever my own hands. I'm typing with my nose right now.)

[Captain Juan Juarez]

"The Inquisition" doesn't really exist, especially not in those unified terms.

 

Tto expand on the point you've made, if you don't mind; there is no unified Inquisition until the Inquisition is threatened.

 

Irrational revenge is lso the best kind because no one expects the slighted to pop up a century later at their enemies demise and go "Hah! Told you I'd get you..."

[RapatoR]

"The Inquisition" doesn't really exist, especially not in those unified terms. And in the example you're using, they make it very clear that one day there'll be a reckoning. The Wolves don't just get away with it, beyond the fact the Inquisition forces are in an untenable position at the time, and just pimp-slapping a First Founding Chapter is a bit like threatening to dig up and pee all over a saint's bones.

 

So the reckoning may well come. It just hasn't come yet. There's no time frame on irrational revenge.

 

(Sorry. It's just anyone comparing my writing to Ragnar Blackmane made me throw up acid and sever my own hands. I'm typing with my nose right now.)

Aaron I think he was not accusing you of any such thing. His point is elsewhere. You know, it is the same thing as people claiming that Curze had soundly beaten Curse in TFH, or AL easily infiltrating everything and so on.

 

I would like to ask you one thing: Could share more detailed thoughts of yours on this matter? I would really like to know what person "from background" thinks (no irony here).

 

Deux ex Ferrum: +1 I tried, but could not put it better.

EDIT: But to be fair and honest I like wolves and I am sure there were more defeats than you named, but Wolves were never picked as punching bags or exceptionally moronic antagonists (MEWTAL BAWKSES!!!! still hurts my brain...) and again I think there is problem with community exaggerating and making them Marry-Suish (I still remember outcry after story of Wolf of Fenris was released....).

[Warsmith Aznable]

We may have already seen the start of Alpha Legions problems in the HH with the last short story:

 

 

Is Omegon working against Alpharius? Is the Legion secretly at war with itself???

 

 

That would certainly be a nice foil for the "secrets everywhere" and "nobody is really sure who is in charge at any given moment" plot armor they seem to have.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Dues Ex: howabout being played off by a daemon entity during Propero Burns? thats pretty bad.

 

or the complete tool nature of the Wolf in Battle for the Abyss? or the fact we Wolves only "won" on Prospero due to the Sisters of Silence

 

and yea, try reading the Wolf codex. alot of the time table of the Wolves has us losing quite a bit (dark eldar poaching recruits from a nearby moon, losing a entire company to unknown creatures beyond the galaxy, peace talks gone wrong with the eldar against the orks turning into all out 3 way war) or Lukas getting trolled by the dark eldar again and having a heart removed.

 

i guess if you ignore those, and probably more if i out effort into this, then it would appear the Wolves always win.

 

WLK

[Pavement Artist]

I cannot stress enough for the umpteenth time, there is every possibility that the alpha legion "agreed" with the cabal, for their own ends. The book is full of disembling, you can't simply accept things at face value. On my third read through of legion, I only just noticed it wasn't alpharius that kills the lord commander at the end.

 

I do agree though that they need to be shown to lose sometime soon. My main complaint is that whilst their unconventional doctrine makes them absolutely awesome, not everyone really nails the portrayal of it. Dan Abnett and Rob sanders got it very much right, where as Gav Thorpes attempt in deliverance lost felt a bit by the numbers.

 

At the moment I'm prediciting a split between alpharius and omegon, as well as one of the two going down at eskrador.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

- Logan Grimnar not only commanded the combined Space Marine Chapters during the 13th Black Crusade, but he also killed a Grey Knight Grand Master and got away with it! The Inquisition actually abides by the decree to stay away from Fenris? Really? Since when did the Inquisition do anything someone else told them to do?

 

"The Inquisition" doesn't really exist, especially not in those unified terms. And in the example you're using, they make it very clear that one day there'll be a reckoning. The Wolves don't just get away with it, beyond the fact the Inquisition forces are in an untenable position at the time, and just pimp-slapping a First Founding Chapter is a bit like threatening to dig up and pee all over a saint's bones.

 

So the reckoning may well come. It just hasn't come yet. There's no time frame on irrational revenge.

 

(Sorry. It's just anyone comparing my writing to Ragnar Blackmane made me throw up acid and sever my own hands. I'm typing with my nose right now.)

 

 

Regarding "the" Inquisition, that's a fair point. But that doesn't change the fact that Grimnar killed a Grand Master of the Grey Knights and was never brought to justice. I suppose I should add a "Yet" on there.

 

I'd also like to apologize for the acidic vomit and loss of hands. I was using examples from multiple sources, but I wasn't comparing yours and his. In fact, I'd say there is no comparison; I respect King's work -- his new High Elf books are enjoyable -- but I couldn't stand the Blackmane books.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

@Dues Ex: howabout being played off by a daemon entity during Propero Burns? thats pretty bad.

 

or the complete tool nature of the Wolf in Battle for the Abyss? or the fact we Wolves only "won" on Prospero due to the Sisters of Silence

 

and yea, try reading the Wolf codex. alot of the time table of the Wolves has us losing quite a bit (dark eldar poaching recruits from a nearby moon, losing a entire company to unknown creatures beyond the galaxy, peace talks gone wrong with the eldar against the orks turning into all out 3 way war) or Lukas getting trolled by the dark eldar again and having a heart removed.

 

i guess if you ignore those, and probably more if i out effort into this, then it would appear the Wolves always win.

 

WLK

3 examples against everything else? No thanks ;) Even Lukas getting his heart cut out made him even more awesome, because his response was 'lolz I'll just put a grenade there instead'. The peace talks gone wrong didn't really make the Wolves look bad either - it was a tragic misunderstanding rather than the Space Wolves making a mistake.

 

And that's the problem that has to be addressed when writing chapters or legions like the Alpha Legion and the Space Wolves. The problem isn't that they never fail. It's that it looks like they have no real weakness.

 

Because really, what weakness does the Alpha Legion have? The enemy is going to attack them? No problem, we'll just give them ten sets of all false coordinates despite their being strong evidence to suggest we were there (because we were... planting evidence). Same goes for Space Wolves. They're going to attack us? No problem, our Long Fangs are veterans so they're awesometacular and our primarch was a close combat beast so should the enemy get close enough we need to actually hit them with our wolf weapons we'll just roflstomp them.

 

 

I'm not saying that all depictions of the Space Wolves or the Alpha Legion or any other chapter/legion/warband/whatever is bad. But if there are no problems with that faction, then you have problems with that faction.

 

I used to like the Space Wolves once... but then I took writing to the knee :)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Eh, thats how you see it, i see it differently. thats pretty evident.

 

WLK

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Eh, thats how you see it, i see it differently. thats pretty evident.

 

WLK

Name one weakness of the Space Wolves. Just one legitimate weakness.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Eh, thats how you see it, i see it differently. thats pretty evident.

 

WLK

Name one weakness of the Space Wolves. Just one legitimate weakness.

 

Arrogance.

Pride.

Stubborness.

 

thats without really trying, off the top of my head.

 

WLK

[Brother Ambroz]

Three personality flaws, not necessarily weaknesses.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Arrogance.

Pride.

Stubborness.

The first is so well displayed in how humanitarian they are and how they constantly fight for the good of everyone they have ever allied with. The second I'll give you - they did ignore the Nikea Edict because they were so proud of how their psykers were different. Stubborness just lets them talk off Inquisitors and shoot down anyone who tries to go to Fenris without their permission.

 

I don't want the Space Wolves to be like this, truly I wish they had real character. Like I said, they were one of my favorite chapters when I first got into the hobby. But how they are portrayed now does them little justice and gives them no potential for true depth of character. Trying to defend them as they are now is ... futile? Too strong a word and not what I'm trying to say, misguided perhaps? Instead of trying to justify the Space Wolves as they are would it not be better to forge them into something new?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Tanith Ghost: Fair enough.

 

Weakness. the inherent genetic instability of the Canis Helix prevents them from having the numbers of other Imperial Space Marines.

 

@DAT: when i first got into the hobby, back in 2002, the Wolves were the drunken barbarian from D&D in power armor.

people mocked them for being 1 dimensional jokes.

 

now they got character, flaws and such.

and people have them for it not being realistic enough.

 

WLK

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

when i first got into the hobby, back in 2002, the Wolves were the drunken barbarian from D&D in power armor.

people mocked them for being 1 dimensional jokes.

 

now they got character, flaws and such.

and people have them for it not being realistic enough.

Ok, so we still need to take a few steps down the road. That's ok. So do some of the other chapters and what not. I don't think that they will continually be stuck in the 'not enough character' phase either, you yourself said that they've been developed a lot more than before already - so why doubt that they will eventually be something that isn't mary sue-ish? :P

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

when i first got into the hobby, back in 2002, the Wolves were the drunken barbarian from D&D in power armor.

people mocked them for being 1 dimensional jokes.

 

now they got character, flaws and such.

and people have them for it not being realistic enough.

Ok, so we still need to take a few steps down the road. That's ok. So do some of the other chapters and what not. I don't think that they will continually be stuck in the 'not enough character' phase either, you yourself said that they've been developed a lot more than before already - so why doubt that they will eventually be something that isn't mary sue-ish? :P

 

well, as i dont see them as being mary sue-ish at the moment, i'm good.

 

WLK

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Weakness. the inherent genetic instability of the Canis Helix prevents them from having the numbers of other Imperial Space Marines.

 

Yeah, the weakness of the Canis Helix which turns them into Wulfen, which gives them Rending. Yeah. Rending is a weakness.

[Hyaenidae]

And, apparently, keeps them from falling to Chaos.

[Wade Garrett]

Well, the Wolves very humanitarian nature could be considered a flaw.

After all, in their last (non Heresy) appearance in print, it got them into a small scale war with the Grey Knights and Red Hunters. Which wrecked their fleet, damaged Fenris itself, burned a lot of bridges within the Inquisition, and Vulkan only knows what the Orks, Dark Eldar, etc. got up to while the Wolves, Knights, various Inquisitors, and Hunters were all busy chasing one another around the Imperium. Plus if just one of those Guardsmen the Route smuggled to safety was Chaos tainted, it could lead to the kind of whacky hijinks that end in whole systems being eaten by Bloodthirsters.