Will the Alpha Legion ever fail?

[Wade Garrett]

Well, the Wolves very humanitarian nature could be considered a flaw.

After all, in their last (non Heresy) appearance in print, it got them into a small scale war with the Grey Knights and Red Hunters. Which wrecked their fleet, damaged Fenris itself, burned a lot of bridges within the Inquisition, and Vulkan only knows what the Orks, Dark Eldar, etc. got up to while the Wolves, Knights, various Inquisitors, and Hunters were all busy chasing one another around the Imperium. Plus if just one of those Guardsmen the Route smuggled to safety was Chaos tainted, it could lead to the kind of whacky hijinks that end in whole systems being eaten by Bloodthirsters.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@DeF: we're discussing fluff here, not game rules. alot of game rules make no sense.

 

@1000heathens: thats a widely held belief, that did utterly nothing to help the mutation of the Wolf Brothers who appeared in Battle for the Fang.

and considering that the wulfen curse can have you kill your brethen, (thunder from fenris, Rag series, possibly other as well) then you can bet your behind i see it as a flaw fluff-wise.

 

WLK

[Hyaenidae]

The whole 'gene-seed failsafe' thing is honestly the only thing that irks me about the Wolves. Other than that, I'm fine.

 

EDIT: Oops, back on topic before this sucker de-rails....

 

I've always perfered the thought that the Alpha Legion are more similar a Asymmetrical Warfare group, less like 'CIA wetops'. They're definetley a favorite legion of mine, but the whole "everyone is Alpharius", or "I need a loophole....Alpha Legion!" thing is getting really old. Mr. Sanders seems like he's getting a bit closer to the mark at least, hopefully he'll get the next Alpha book.

[jeremy1391]

I see the Alpha Legion in a similar light to the OSS/CIA at first they were top notch at infiltrating and spying generally causing a mess, and as time wears on things become convoluted agents become double agents become triple agents. Spies within rings of spies, paranoia inter agency politics, burn notices and the like. No one trusts anyone. Basically full blown spy novel shenanigans.

 

AL are not james bond, they are expendable assets who are as likely to get burned by their legion as they are by their enemies.

[NemFX]

I see the Alpha Legion headed directly for civil war in the books.

 

I admit, I haven't managed to find many of their stories, but just..

 

The concept of leading an army that you yourself has taught to function, thrive, and be pretty much entirely independent of your influence.. As effective as it is for their short term goals, I think once the question is finally brought up about where their loyalties lie beyond the Alpha Legion itself, that's when everything is going to go bad.

 

Imagine, if you will, Alpharius decides to be Chaos aligned, and Omegon decides to be Imperium aligned.

 

Instant recipe for disaster, and great storytelling. Covert wars between the two factions, while trying to help out their political agendas, or at least disrupting the other sides.

 

I think if that happens, it'll be one of the bigger tragedies of the Horus Heresy series. Seeing such an effective chapter tear itself apart.

[dustermaker]

I see the Alpha Legion headed directly for civil war in the books.

 

I admit, I haven't managed to find many of their stories, but just..

 

The concept of leading an army that you yourself has taught to function, thrive, and be pretty much entirely independent of your influence.. As effective as it is for their short term goals, I think once the question is finally brought up about where their loyalties lie beyond the Alpha Legion itself, that's when everything is going to go bad.

 

Imagine, if you will, Alpharius decides to be Chaos aligned, and Omegon decides to be Imperium aligned.

 

Instant recipe for disaster, and great storytelling. Covert wars between the two factions, while trying to help out their political agendas, or at least disrupting the other sides.

 

I think if that happens, it'll be one of the bigger tragedies of the Horus Heresy series. Seeing such an effective chapter tear itself apart.

 

An Alpha Legion civil war!! Now that would be epic, and have the best ending in all of history. Omegon kills Alpharius, then turns to face the camera... pulls his mask off and is Alpharius all along!!! DUN DUN DUN!!!

[sponsra]

It´s weird how I always complain about the books I like the most :lol:. Fear to Tread is great so far, and as I agree that AL and SW seem a bit overpowered at times (in the HH-novels) Legion and Prospero Burns are two of my fav HH-books. Nice to see all the replies with examples of AL failing (not that I want them to fail, I think they´re a cool Legion, but just for the balance of the story). They "win the battles but loose the war" - thats´s really true.

 

What's a bugbear?

 

"A bugbear is a legendary creature or type of hobgoblin comparable to the bogeyman, bogey, bugaboo, and other creatures of folklore, all of which were historically used in some cultures to frighten disobedient children.[1] Its name is derived from a Middle English word "bugge" (a frightening thing), or perhaps the old Welsh word bwg (evil spirit or goblin), [2] or old Scots "bogill" (goblin), and has cognates in German "bögge" or "böggel-mann" (goblin), and most probably also English "bugaboo" and "bogey-man". In medieval England, the Bugbear was depicted as a creepy bear that lurked in the woods to scare children; it was described in this manner in an English translation of a 1565 Italian play The Buggbear.[2]

In a modern context, the term bugbear serves as a metaphor for something which is annoying or irritating.[1] It may also mean "pet peeve".[3]" -- Wikipedia.

 

So, is Alpha Legion never failing annoying, or is people talking about it annoying?

[Israfel]

I for one am a little fed up with how AL are super duper conspirators who infiltrate all and make all the right moves and anticipate all the moves of others. Before the HH series they had no character at all. Legion made them a SM legion that I would really consider playing (If I ever turn to chaos and after TS), but after that it started to get a little out of hand... Hopefully at some point the Hydra will start feeding upon its own heads, as it is the way of all "cloak and dagger" organizations. An Omegon vs Alpharius clash and division of the legion would also be very interesting to read :lol:

[amaze07]

I would just like to see em get a little beat down by a legion geared towards the black-ops aspect,like maybe the raven guard getting there own back not by sneaking in operatives as the AL do but maybe going on a assassination rampage of there operatives!!

[RapatoR]

I would just like to see em get a little beat down by a legion geared towards the black-ops aspect,like maybe the raven guard getting there own back not by sneaking in operatives as the AL do but maybe going on a assassination rampage of there operatives!!

Well there was battle against Kernax Volodorius, where he lost to combined WS and RG force.

[Pavement Artist]

Anyyyyywayyyyy let's stop talking about the space wolves. They aren't nearly as fun as the alpha legion :blink:

 

I wonder how much the new chaos book will go Into talking about the 40k era alpha legion. It'd be interesting to seem them portrayed as a more splintered force.

[Noserenda]

The Alpha Legion do well because they are playing a different game to the other Legions, Infiltrating another legion was inconceivable before Corax discovered it which is half the reason it went so well. Of course once word gets around I imagine things will be considerably harder, at least on the Loyalist side...

[Gree]

I would just like to see em get a little beat down by a legion geared towards the black-ops aspect,like maybe the raven guard getting there own back not by sneaking in operatives as the AL do but maybe going on a assassination rampage of there operatives!!

Well there was battle against Kernax Volodorius, where he lost to combined WS and RG force.

 

That was not exactly an ''assassination rampage'' of Alpha Legion hidden operatives now was it? In fact the Alpha Legion in that book were Alpha Legion in name only compared to the ones this topic is actually talking about. Voldorious's Alpha Legion acted nothing like the Alpha Legion described in Legion or Deliverance Lost.

[Brother Ambroz]

That was not exactly an ''assassination rampage'' of Alpha Legion hidden operatives now was it? In fact the Alpha Legion in that book were Alpha Legion in name only compared to the ones this topic is actually talking about. Voldorious's Alpha Legion acted nothing like the Alpha Legion described in Legion or Deliverance Lost.

 

First off, for an "assasination rampage" they'd need to know exactly who the AL operatives were. Second off this is the heresy, this is the time where (for the most part anyway) the loyalists are getting a beatdown. The period after is where the legions that side with Horus start to get beatdown themselves.

 

Nearly all of the 40k era descriptions of AL are nothing like the 30k. Most of them are corrupt and mutated but then again most were written before the AL took a new direction.

 

Weakness. the inherent genetic instability of the Canis Helix prevents them from having the numbers of other Imperial Space Marines.

 

Kind of a double edged sword though, it also makes them more resistant to chaos/psychic stuff. In turn though you have the wulfen and the genetic instability. Fair enough though, that is a weakness.

[RapatoR]

I would just like to see em get a little beat down by a legion geared towards the black-ops aspect,like maybe the raven guard getting there own back not by sneaking in operatives as the AL do but maybe going on a assassination rampage of there operatives!!

Well there was battle against Kernax Volodorius, where he lost to combined WS and RG force.

 

That was not exactly an ''assassination rampage'' of Alpha Legion hidden operatives now was it? In fact the Alpha Legion in that book were Alpha Legion in name only compared to the ones this topic is actually talking about. Voldorious's Alpha Legion acted nothing like the Alpha Legion described in Legion or Deliverance Lost.

Well in Codex Space Marines was this battle described as using their mondus operandi, I have not read actual novel but I heard some people claim that Volodorius used sneaky tactics (ambushing, setting traps using cannon fodder f'ex). Anyway in Codex it is described as AL using their usual tactics and loosing, maybe author just did not comprehended it enough.

In addition I do not understand what drives people to think that AL won in Deliverance Lost. They failed at their primary objective and one thing that saved them from utter failure was survival and escape of their primarch.

 

If it is incorrect point still stands: If some other (loyalist) Legion would be used as stupid cartoonish evil villains (ehm... punching bags), retaliation from fans would be MASSIVE. (Can you imagine what would happen if there was Wolf Lord maniacally ranting about METAL SQUIRRELS!! after seeing a unit of Assault Marines?) Now after several such treatments (some of them were especially humiliating) AL finally gets some victories and people start to exaggerate and call them Marry Sues. Really? I call out to all 40k fans: Post a name of any loyalist legion with worse battle record (and stupider leaders) than AL and I will happily concede.

[Brother Ambroz]

They failed at their primary objective and one thing that saved them from utter failure was survival and escape of their primarch.

 

Ummm wasn't their primary objective to capture the primarch project?

[E.G.J.]

Aren't some of you exaggerating the clandestine nature of the Alpha Legion? Sure, they specialize in subterfuge, but where did this whole "the Alpha Legion did it with their super duper cleverness" come from? Where is it? Is it in their infiltrating of the Raven Guard? Because didn't that work out really well? I'm sorry to say, but I don't see this whole sneaky Alpha Legion conspiracy that everyone seems to be talking about. Other than on forums that is, but it really isn't all that apparent from the fluff.

 

There are a couple of other things I'd like to point out for those who think the Alpha Legion appears "too winning".

 

1) I've never seen another primarch talked down to by astartes from other legions the way Alpharius was in Deliverance Lost.

 

2) Omegon and Alpharius are all-in-all portrayed as much smaller and weaker than the other primarchs and are quite buddy-buddy with their subordinates. Kinda have to be sneaky wouldn't they? Cough cough.

 

3) Their plans haven't turned out that great have they? Infiltrating the RG can only be seen as snatching a draw from the jaws of defeat. The plan in Serpent Beneath? How did that turn out? Was that a stunning success? For who? Omegon? Alpharius? The Alpha Legion?

 

4) Killing three White Scars by surprising them can hardly be considered a giant victory. Especially when one almost got away.

 

5) How sneaky are these guys really? I mean really? Infiltrating another legion (and getting caught), giving false co-ordinates of their whereabouts, and blowing up a pylon array? That's uber clandestine, yeah? I think my girlfriend engages in more subterfuge when she tries to sneak a fart.

 

Finally, I want us to think back a little bit. Remember in the first few HH books it seemed as though Erebus was behind the whole thing. At every juncture that guy would show up as though the whole Heresy had been orchestrated by this one Word Bearer. Then we got some more perspective in The First Heretic and Erebus no longer appeared quite the clever jester he had earlier. It's likely we'll get similar nuance when it comes to the Alpha Legion.

[Legatus]

Sure, they specialize in subterfuge, but where did this whole "the Alpha Legion did it with their super duper cleverness" come from?

Perhaps from how the Alpha Legion infiltrated the World Eaters Legion and then orchestrated the Raven Guard's retreat from Istvaan V. And how they infiltrated the Raven Guard and stole the Marine technology. And how they do that kind of stuff not just in the Horus Heresy series, but in other stories to other Chapters. We have two examples of a Chapter being infiltrated or their members being brainwashed by the Alpha Legion, which then proceeds to destroy said Chapter. One example is given in the Codex Space Marines, where the Alpha Legion destroys the Emperor's Swords Chapter from within. The other example is from the short story 'The Long Games at Carcharias', where a single Alpha Legion commander destroys the Crimson Consuls Chapter by sending of half of their Companies to far off locations where they are destroyed in peacemeal while the other half of the Chapter has been brainwashed since their indoctrination and is completely under the AL's command.

Yeah, I guess that is where that comes from.

[E.G.J.]

Sure, they specialize in subterfuge, but where did this whole "the Alpha Legion did it with their super duper cleverness" come from?

Perhaps from how the Alpha Legion infiltrated the World Eaters Legion and then orchestrated the Raven Guard's retreat from Istvaan V. And how they infiltrated the Raven Guard and stole the Marine technology. And how they do that kind of stuff not just in the Horus Heresy series, but in other stories to other Chapters. We have two examples of a Chapter being infiltrated or their members being brainwashed by the Alpha Legion, which then proceeds to destroy said Chapter. One example is given in the Codex Space Marines, where the Alpha Legion destroys the Emperor's Swords Chapter from within. The other example is from the short story 'The Long Games at Carcharias', where a single Alpha Legion commander destroys the Crimson Consuls Chapter by sending of half of their Companies to far off locations where they are destroyed in peacemeal while the other half of the Chapter has been brainwashed since their indoctrination and is completely under the AL's command.

Yeah, I guess that is where that comes from.

 

 

I think you're missing the point. These victories against other (and admittedly smaller) successor chapters don't mount up to some giant "The Alpha Legion did it" conspiracy. It would instead fall as successful engagements using tactics the legion has been known to use. It hardly makes them superior. It doesn't make them some deus ex machina explanation for everything that others seem to imply.

 

Now, also if you're going to be completely honest, how many other chapters have been nearly or completely wiped out by other astartes? By the inquisition? By xenos? That the Alpha Legion managed something similar shouldn't really irk you all that much. Would you have preferred it was the wolves that did these other chapters in? Would that be acceptable? I mean aren't they "the Emperor's executioners"? According to some fans responsible for the demise of the two lost legions and the Thousand Sons. C'mon! You should hardly be outraged about the Alpha Legion here.

[Legatus]

I thought you were wondering why poeple might be put off by the super secret skillz of the Alpha Legion. That was one possible explanation.

[Billuriye]

I thought you were wondering why poeple might be put off by the super secret skillz of the Alpha Legion. That was one possible explanation.

 

So Guilliman can get away with being a walking Deus Ex Machina in Collected Visions while Alpha Legion can't be super sneaky. Okay.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I just HATE the Alpha Legion, TOO much elite....erm.....ism to their fluff, Gets on my nerves to think that they can subdue other legions and what not with the tactics they use but this is mainly because they use their tactics too well they're like an elite sniper on counter strike (THE NONE RELATED PC GAME) in an amazing camping position with an AWP, admirable, but only to their own kind!

[Legatus]

So Guilliman can get away with being a walking Deus Ex Machina in Collected Visions while Alpha Legion can't be super sneaky. Okay.

One, when a Primarch is shown being good at what he is supposed to be good at he is not a "deus ex machina", two, he is not shown in such a role all the time in several novels and during several different campaigns, again and again. So for one, that was not a very good comparison. And neither was it a good comparison.

[Billuriye]

One, when a Primarch is shown being good at what he is supposed to be good at he is not a "deus ex machina", two, he is not shown in such a role all the time in several novels and during several different campaigns, again and again.

 

Getting ambushed by another large legion with your belly presented yet despite that coming on top with sheer Primarch magic without suffering major losses is quite Deus Ex Machina.

[E.G.J.]

So Guilliman can get away with being a walking Deus Ex Machina in Collected Visions while Alpha Legion can't be super sneaky. Okay.

One, when a Primarch is shown being good at what he is supposed to be good at he is not a "deus ex machina", two, he is not shown in such a role all the time in several novels and during several different campaigns, again and again.

 

1) So Alpharius can't be shown being good at what he's supposedly good at?

 

2) I seem to recall a certain primarch being portrayed as a snarling, canine-baring, bad-ass who couldn't possibly lose in quite a few novels again and again and again. One might even say he's a cliche it happens so often.

 

 

I'll say it again....if you're going to be upset about the current portrayal of the Alpha Legion then you should also be upset about other legions/primarchs "winningness" in the same series. One would also think you'd be having a cow each time Erebus showed up in the first couple of HH novels as the mustache-twirling puppet-master of primarchs.

 

Or you could also acknowledge that the Alpha Legion hasn't really been winning any more or less than anybody else. There's plenty of evidence in this thread for that.....but to each his own I guess. Maybe you don't like subterfuge of any kind.....full throttle Angron berserkerness or Russ' dog barking for you then? Whatever floats your boat.