Will the Alpha Legion ever fail?

[Ubermensch Commander]

I find it to be utter shenanigans the newest Legion, set with only recently getting their Primarch, can infiltrate so many organizations, Legion related and non Astartes groups. Their fingers in every pie certainly raises eyebrows. Even in the novels they make nods to "Well this really shouldn't work even according to our fictional rules but HEY! Who cares?" As a result, my suspension of disbelief tanks very very fast.

 

What is also tiring is seeing this literally galaxy spanning infiltration plots actually bloody work. Alpharius skills be damned, human nature and problems of communication inherently mentioned in 40k would make these operations laughable, particularly when such operations are not dependent on the mind of the Primarch, but on the skills of the operatives.

This is not engineering a large scale battle, where orders are given, received, and obeyed. This is independent wet working reliant on empathy and individual intelligence.

Thus it is more believable that Horus, Angron, the Lion, Guilliman and all other Primarchs have an astute grasp of battle tactics/strategy and maneuver their troops like chess pieces than having a Primarch sitting back and stating "Just as planned" every 5 minutes because his nigh Ogryn sized super beings snuck about the place and adapted to the disparate societies and groups they were forced to interact with.

 

8 foot tall, genetically pre disposed to look like the Primarch, super children killers are held as epitome of sneaky gits and can emphasize and read humans well enough to infiltrate various societies, even though a reoccurring theme through the Heresy series is how removed from humanity most marines are? Sure, there is some nice beach front property on Terra too.

 

In addition, now Alpha Legion are being shoehorned into situations they had nothing and nadda to do with and need not be there. The Raven Guard example again because it is so egregious and marks both criteria. Even allowing for issues of HOW they Alpha Legion are there in the first place, the WHY they are being written there starts to grate. There is no need to have so many Alpha Legion running plots. There are enough actors on stage that they are not needed to explain why certain events of the Heresy took place. It also steps on the toes of other Legions efforts in the process.

 

It is not a matter of "not getting it" as it is a matter of "not buying it."

 

The "winningness" is poorly portrayed, IMHO. I myself don't mind them "winning," it is the manner in which it is portrayed, the "how" they win and "why" they are there in the first place that bothers me.

[Gree]

One, when a Primarch is shown being good at what he is supposed to be good at he is not a "deus ex machina", two, he is not shown in such a role all the time in several novels and during several different campaigns, again and again.

 

Getting ambushed by another large legion with your belly presented yet despite that coming on top with sheer Primarch magic without suffering major losses is quite Deus Ex Machina.

 

Except he did suffer major losses in the Collected Visions account.

[Pavement Artist]

In the novel, their fleet was gutted and they suffered plenty of losses. That's why i liked their victory, because it felt deserved, it felt as if they came back from the odds.

 

We are in the shallow waters of the Heresy as a long war at the moment. I feel part of the Alpha Legion's "I'm Bi-Winning" reputation is largely down to the fact that chronologically speaking, we're at the point where the loyalist legions are being jumped on from all quarters. Once we get into the meat of things, we are most likely going to see team naughty take a kicking.

[RapatoR]

They failed at their primary objective and one thing that saved them from utter failure was survival and escape of their primarch.

 

Ummm wasn't their primary objective to capture the primarch project?

I might be wrong but my take on it it was primary objective of Cabal, not AL.

 

Perhaps from how the Alpha Legion infiltrated the World Eaters Legion and then orchestrated the Raven Guard's retreat from Istvaan V. And how they infiltrated the Raven Guard and stole the Marine technology. And how they do that kind of stuff not just in the Horus Heresy series, but in other stories to other Chapters.

 

All this comes from a single novel and single short story which were intentionally tied together and were written by single author. And even then he mentions that this could be realised because of improbability of such feat and it was very risky business that almost utterly failed.

 

 

We have two examples of a Chapter being infiltrated or their members being brainwashed by the Alpha Legion, which then proceeds to destroy said Chapter. One example is given in the Codex Space Marines, where the Alpha Legion destroys the Emperor's Swords Chapter from within.

Yes Alpha Legion devises plan that takes more than a dozen generations and destroys one chapter that was previously not mentioned even once. Doombreed destroyed two such chapters in one crusade. I don't think this is exceptionally whopping success.

 

The other example is from the short story 'The Long Games at Carcharias', where a single Alpha Legion commander

With huge chunk of marines and resources from Abaddon himself devised a plan that took centuries to realise

 

destroys the Crimson Consuls Chapter by sending of half of their Companies to far off locations where they are destroyed in peacemeal

by devising administrative error in imperial records, that led to demise of second and fourth company (two, not half of the companies), sending large Black Legion warband against eight company, sabotaging warp drives on a space hulk that was boarded by first company, sending false reports after third and fifth company was destroyed in a fight against tau, while sixth company and seventh companies are destroyed in assault by Black Legion/brainwashed Crimson consuls.

 

while the other half of the Chapter has been brainwashed since their indoctrination and is completely under the AL's command.

Tenth and Ninth companies. Again I want to emphasise that it took many years.

 

THIS IS NOT MEANT AS AN INSULT TO LEGATUS, it is just: "Dude it is bit exaggerated here and there, just as E.G.J. pointed out."

 

Again I would like to ask, if there is a loyalist legion, whose battle records consists of half of defeats, was used as punching bags more than several times

and at least one leader whose (dis)abilities would be match for some of AL commanders (or at least Firaeveus Carron).

[Alkana]

Before the HH series they had no character at all.

 

*puts on AL fanboy hat*

 

Their character pre-HH novels was that they were the youngest sons. They were proud of their accomplishments, even though other Legions looked down on them, and they worked to be seen as equals by their older brothers. They planned things, to the point that their campaigns tended to take longer than some of the other Legions', but they made up for it by taking fewer casualties. It says in their old IA that they always had back up plans, infiltrators, and flanking forces ready to strike at the perfect moment. That isn't new, it's kinda been their thing since the beginning.

 

By the time a battle started, the Alpha Legion would have so many elements to its advantage that it was virtually impossible for them to lose.

 

Complaining about the AL winning a battle is like whining that Sanguinius had wings. Yes, he did. That was his thing. He also broke Bloodthirsters and isn't afraid of anything. The way to beat the Legion is to take them by surprise. But to do that, another Legion would have to NOT run into them like buffoons. They'd have to think, and plan, and do all those crazy "strategic" things the Primarchs were famous for doing.

 

The AL is "winning" right now because they're being a smart military organisation. They aren't blindly loyal or angry or depressed or bitter. They're focused on doing what needs to be done for them to be victorious.

 

/AL fanboy hat

 

Btw, I'm 99% sure the only reason they were in Deliverance Lost is so there would be an actual conflict. Otherwise it's just be, "Corax gets recipe for super-SM. Something goes wrong. Fin."

[jeremy1391]

I did like how in deliverance lost it gave an explanation as to why the marines corax created got messed up.

[Billuriye]

Except he did suffer major losses in the Collected Visions account.

 

One third isn't that much compared to other mauled legions. Nothing major. Especially considering Word Bearers had time to prep while Ultras got none.

[Marshal Rohr]

So if the Ultramarines got off light that pretty much means the Space Wolves didn't do much either since they lost less than 1/3 at Prospero. Maybe it was because they were the Emperora executioners and got special powers?

 

But I mean, they missed Terra too so if they got off even lighter than the Ultras then their excuse is even less credible than the Ultras!

 

 

 

Do you see how stupid leaps of logic can be?

[Billuriye]

Do you see how stupid leaps of logic can be?

 

Yep especially yours since i never said they got off lightly. I just said they didn't suffer major losses compared to other legions who got ambushed due to RG's sheer brilliance.

[Captain Idaho]

Let's not have a thread about the Alpha Legion turn into a discussion as to why the Ultramarines weren't at Terra because of Know No Fear, or how Collected Visions differs from that book.

 

Stay on topic guys.

[Yogi]

What Deus Ex Ferrum said.

 

The Alpha Legion has been altered quite a bit from its 2nd ed days, which while sparse was coherent and characterful, and honestly my preference. I can see why people get all riled up about them now. But loyalists have been depicted as invincible champions far more then the Alpha Legion. Grey Knights anyone?

 

I think its about time the a chaos legion pissed some people off. With ridiculous over the top exploits, unrealistic plot armor and undeserved victories.

 

The shoe is on the other foot and your rage pleases me and the Chaos Gods.

[Arachnid99]

Yogi has a point, while I dislike the way the Alpha Legion are being portrayed, it lacks depth, relies way to heavily on implausible deus ex machina coming out of nowhere and generally trashes one of the most interesting Index Astartes era back stories, yet I feel forced to defend them. One of the reasons I like Black Templars is we're depicted as flawed, we're zealots whose fanaticism frequently backfires, we have character. In contrast forces like the Space Wolfs or Ultramarines both in 40k but especially in 30k are one dimensional, they are arrogant and proud but considering how they always win and those characteristics clearly never hurt them so they can't be counted as flaws. Name one incident where the Space Wolves nature causes them a set back in the Heresy so far?

 

So as much as I dislike the way the AL are depicted I am glad we have a force who has a hope of punching through the Ultrawolf plot armour.

[Legatus]

Like they did ten years ago in their Index Astartes article?

[Gree]

EDIT: Never mind.

[Arachnid99]

Like they did ten years ago in their Index Astartes article?

 

Eskrador and that Index Astartes article were written in the era before the Ultramarines got boosted out of all recognition into being the Chapter that every single Marine wishes they were a part of and the holy geneseed of Guiliman causes envy from all non descendants because of it's awesomeness. That was in the era when I and many others liked the Ultramarines.

[Legatus]

Weell, no, technically the Ultramarines already got that position in 2nd Edition. It just was not emphasized that much during 3rd and 4th.

[Ubermensch Commander]

I did like how in deliverance lost it gave an explanation as to why the marines corax created got messed up.

 

Already had that. As with the Cursed Founding and the accelerated recruitment needs of the Great Crusade fiddling with the Adeptus Astartes geneseed leads to problems. The inherent flaws of the super human material exponential increase in frequency and magnitude.

Corax trying to force his Legion into fighting form, utilizing forbidden cloning methods and otherwise doing shady, dangerous, and frowned upon methods to circumvent the usual safeguards in Legion recruitment.

 

 

@Aikana

The conflict would have been largely internal, as we see in most of Prospero Burns, the Horus Trilogy (1st 3 books), The First Heretic, Legion, and A Thousand Sons. Of course there are battles and conflicts, but many of the pivotal events are the characters dealing with their own trials and tribulations in a changing universe. The whole POINT of the Deliverance Lost period is the desperation of the Primarch, taking questionable actions to try to get back in the fight and then dealing with them. It gives character and depth to the Legion and Primarch to see them tested and witness their actions/reactions.

 

It cheapens the Raven Guard by having the Alpha Legion there: It removes the focus from their own struggle and was poorly implemented. Ignoring the base trooper problems, how would one have a commander with no knowledge of basic command lingo, tactics, and organization of the Legion go unnoticed?

Heck, having the Raven Guard escape the Dropsite Massacres due to Alpha Legion interference is eyebrow raising to boot.

If it took enemy handiwork to "allow" them to escape the Dropsite Massacres, that would warrant some grand plan of the Sigillite or the Emperor "allow" the traitor marines not be hammer/anviled at the Siege of Terra.

[Azekai]

Already had that. As with the Cursed Founding and the accelerated recruitment needs of the Great Crusade fiddling with the Adeptus Astartes geneseed leads to problems. The inherent flaws of the super human material exponential increase in frequency and magnitude.

Corax trying to force his Legion into fighting form, utilizing forbidden cloning methods and otherwise doing shady, dangerous, and frowned upon methods to circumvent the usual safeguards in Legion recruitment.

 

Except didn't the first batch of astartes created from this forbidden tech turn out just fine? I am pretty sure the new reason for the existence of the weregeld is due to that crazy daemon blood concoction the AL used to sabotage the Raven Guard . . . because they always win . . . unless metal bawkses are involved.

[esinhorn]

Here is my take on it.

AL is like the Space Wolves they work for the emperor in a special way.

Where the SW are the Emps "executioners" the AL are his spies.

 

I think the Emp knew for some time he was going into the webway,says as much in Thousand Sons.

He knew he was going to put Horus in charge and that Horus's defining trait was his ambition.

I think AL was put in place as a watchdog for the Primarchs and thier legions.

I think the AL homeworld is Terra.

The Emp has " Premenition to start creating AL just 20 years before Alpharuis was found.

20 years is how long it takes to whip a batch of initiates into scouts and full Marines.

Alpharuis was found as part of a ragtag fleet " discovered by Horus"

Horus does not present Alpharuis to the Emp right away,he keeps him by his side for 5 years,why?

Was it Alpharuis asked him not to perhaps to test his loyalty to the Emp.

Just how did AL in a short time have a galaxy wide intelligence network,could it be because it is the Emps network of ordinary joe spies.

Remember in 40k when Gods walk the earth the lowly serf is invisible,all legions have them all legions use them.

 

And then there is Omegon,no one saw there was two in the pod?

I think Omegon is the watchdog to His brother Alpharuis put in place by design and handled by Malcador himself.

Alpharuis is a sneaky bastard by nature,it was how he was designed it would be a no brainer to watch someone who is a little too smart for his own good.

In the Serpent beneath Omegon at the end goes in his chamber and there are three sets of armor.

His ceremonial ,his standard suit,and one that is plain and unadorned.

Most think this is a standard suit but they make a point to mention the second suit was a no frills AL suit.

So Plain and unadorned where have I heard that description before.

The Garro series of audio novels,they where plain ceramics with no markings,except for an almost invisible eye of Malcador.

Could Omegon be a Knight Lord Errant?

Possibly Janus(in mythology Janus is twins)

[Gaius Atticus]

It's hard to beat AL because they don't fight like most Legions. In GrimDark tactics appear to be of alower standard than current time. Forces charge head first at each other and use WWI like tactics. However AL fight like a modern day guerilla force. As such they are hard to defeat as they cant be beaten in a pitched battle due to them avoiding such encounters. The only example of a AL loss that I can think of was Guilliman going against his own codex and suprise attacking the AL HQ. Even then the unorthadox tactics ofvAL forced UM to fall back and regroup to their fleet.

[Alkana]

The conflict would have been largely internal, as we see in most of Prospero Burns, the Horus Trilogy (1st 3 books), The First Heretic, Legion, and A Thousand Sons. Of course there are battles and conflicts, but many of the pivotal events are the characters dealing with their own trials and tribulations in a changing universe. The whole POINT of the Deliverance Lost period is the desperation of the Primarch, taking questionable actions to try to get back in the fight and then dealing with them. It gives character and depth to the Legion and Primarch to see them tested and witness their actions/reactions.

 

It cheapens the Raven Guard by having the Alpha Legion there: It removes the focus from their own struggle and was poorly implemented. Ignoring the base trooper problems, how would one have a commander with no knowledge of basic command lingo, tactics, and organization of the Legion go unnoticed?

Heck, having the Raven Guard escape the Dropsite Massacres due to Alpha Legion interference is eyebrow raising to boot.

If it took enemy handiwork to "allow" them to escape the Dropsite Massacres, that would warrant some grand plan of the Sigillite or the Emperor "allow" the traitor marines not be hammer/anviled at the Siege of Terra.

 

I think the bolded part is the biggest issue people have with the book. I still saw Corax's desperation and frustration and anger. I saw him beginning to distance himself from his sons. Maybe that's because I was looking at the way things were meant to be presented rather than how they were actually written. I don't disagree that the book as a whole could have been written better, but it seems wrong that people are expecting amazing literature from a group of game designers.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

I would love to read about the Alpha Legion preventing the Wolves from getting to Terra. I think this is what happens & I satnd to be corrected. Just dont let Gavin Thorpe write the book.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I would love to read about the Alpha Legion preventing the Wolves from getting to Terra. I think this is what happens & I satnd to be corrected. Just dont let Gavin Thorpe write the book.

 

 

That is indeed what the Collected Visions says happened. And I too look forward to that victory, since I very much want to see how it was accomplished, seeing as how they were whooping up on the Wolves' collective tails while simultaneously holding off the White Scars with some. . . interesting tactics.

[Kol Saresk]

The way I see it, they're dirty fighters. They like direct fights less than the Night Lords do. I think it goes back to when they were Tzeentch-aligned. They're thinkers and plotters, coming up with their little schemes, always making sure that everything goes according to plan so no one freaks out. You never know they're there unless you're (un)lucky or they want you to know. So will they ever be "beaten" in the unconventional sense, no. Can they be beaten, yes. Will we ever truly know about it, maybe.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

I think the flaw of the AL is that they get too involved in convoluted plots. Where the hydra will bite its own head off

10000 years later it must be a paranoid affair being AL because the "== REDACTED - JUVENILE & NONCONSTRUCTIVE == plickens" non- stop.