Will the Alpha Legion ever fail?

[Kol Saresk]

Yes and no. As far as I know, their IA article states that they alone of all the Traitor Legions seemed to be the least mutated due to general lack of warp exposure(compared to other Traitors) and as a result seemed to be going through the average life and death cycle of a group of Astartes where the original Traitors essentially no longer existed except in the most extreme cases. So I think it has something to do with that since that particular piece of fluff has never been refuted by "canon"(or whatever you consider to be canon) that I have seen. So it's possible that more than a few Alpha Legion Warbands(Or Cells as the case/fluff/player-author warrants) have had a leader who died and then was replaced by a subordinate who probably didn't inherit all of his predecessor's contacts and schemes which resulted in a breakdown of communications between what were two or more close-knit groups, whether it be as allies or information brokers. It's possible that not even the Alpha Legion knows just how strong or weak it truly is because of this behavior of compartmentalization.

[BrotherHostower]

I would love to read about the Alpha Legion preventing the Wolves from getting to Terra. I think this is what happens & I satnd to be corrected. Just dont let Gavin Thorpe write the book.

 

 

That is indeed what the Collected Visions says happened. And I too look forward to that victory, since I very much want to see how it was accomplished, seeing as how they were whooping up on the Wolves' collective tails while simultaneously holding off the White Scars with some. . . interesting tactics.

 

 

Remember they're 'smart' fighters, in other words, they dont go toe to toe with the wolves OR the scars. acts of sabotage, pushing other things to fight them, etc (If I remember right, in one of the HH previous fluff things it read that the DA and the SW hauled butt bk to terra, but LR had to stop at every planet on the way home to help the poor suffering people).

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I would love to read about the Alpha Legion preventing the Wolves from getting to Terra. I think this is what happens & I satnd to be corrected. Just dont let Gavin Thorpe write the book.

 

 

That is indeed what the Collected Visions says happened. And I too look forward to that victory, since I very much want to see how it was accomplished, seeing as how they were whooping up on the Wolves' collective tails while simultaneously holding off the White Scars with some. . . interesting tactics.

 

 

Remember they're 'smart' fighters, in other words, they dont go toe to toe with the wolves OR the scars. acts of sabotage, pushing other things to fight them, etc (If I remember right, in one of the HH previous fluff things it read that the DA and the SW hauled butt bk to terra, but LR had to stop at every planet on the way home to help the poor suffering people).

 

 

I'm aware. What I was getting at is that, in the account of the battle in Collected Visions, the Alphas ambush and smack the Wolves around. The Scars are nearby and come to help, but the Khan holds back because the Alphas keep sending a bunch of little ships at his fleet. He becomes wary of a trap or trick, and so holds off, picking off these lighter fleet elements, until Dorn orders him back to Terra. The Wolves are able to disengage and hoof it away from Terra, hoping to draw off the Alphas.

 

That's the "interesting" tactic I was talking about, with the bunch of little ships, denying the Khan a decisive engagement. I want to know if there is more to it, if a trap was set and the Khan and was smart enough NOT to walk into it.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

well, according to page 344 of the Collected Visions, the Wolves intercept the Alpha Legion fleet on its way to Chondax, where the Khan is located and about to leave. So it hardly sounds like the Alpha Legion ambused the Wolves.

 

Also, the Alpha Legion fleet was big enough that both Russ and the Khan agreed that attacking it alone would risk defeat, and Russ's fleet had only avoided being over-whelmed by adopting hit and run tactics. the Khan also notes that the AL fleet greatly outnumbers Russ's fleet.

 

Finally, the Khan's reluctance to engage was not due to the AL fleet or tactics, which had only confused him (sending in small ships to die but not engaging with heavier vessels), but rather he had sent a message to Dorn asking for permission to engage the AL fleet instead of him returning to Terra without delay. His request was denied and Dorn added that Russ was to fully engage the AL fleet and draw them away from Terra.

 

So what really happened according to page 344 was the Wolves ambused the much larger AL fleet on its way to attack the Khan, and then engaged them long enough for the White Scars Legion to make its way to Terra.

 

WLK

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Thanks for the clarification, WLK, it's been a while since I read it and apparently my memory was a touch fuzzy on some of the details. Regardless, the point under discussion was the "lots of little ships vs. Khan" which I remember properly. Still curious if there was something else in the wings on that because the idea of it is just so.....strange. It's not the kind of tactic a Space Marine force would use, especially one whose primary modus operandi involves stacking the deck.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

Good so hopefully we gonna get some Wolves kicking Alpha Legion butt. I hope A.D.B or Abnett get to write this story and make it a really cool showdown that both fans can be happy with.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Good so hopefully we gonna get some Wolves kicking Alpha Legion butt. I hope A.D.B or Abnett get to write this story and make it a really cool showdown that both fans can be happy with.

 

well, i wont go as far as to say the Wolves kick their butt. from the original sources, the Wolves are later aided in their fight by a "unexpected" ally. this coul dbe the cabal, eldar, or even the dark angels. who knows?

 

rather than a curb stomp fight, i would be very happy with both Legions getting shown their strengths, and then breaking off when the 3rd party gets involved. the Alpha Legion fades away while the Wolves power towards Terra. no clear winner, but no loser either.

 

but looking how the AL have been shown so far, they probably have agents aboard all the Wolf ships. and the AL fleet is actually a traitor fleet pretending to be an Alpha Legion fleet, only to have its key naval officers be actual Alpha Legion operatives.

 

WLK

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Let's not get crazy, WLK. Only Tzeentch likes stuff so convoluted that it makes no sense. The Alpha Legion's primary description in their eponymous HH novel was practicality.

[Kol Saresk]

Besides, all the Wolves smell like dogs. Do you realize how hard it would be too duplicate that kind of scent?

[Bulwyf]

Well Said sponsra!!I was actually going to start a thread asking is anyone getting kinda annoyed the way the alpha legion always have the upper hand,

like in The Serpent Beneath

when they manage to beat the white scars

that really kinda annoyed me,they are a cool legion but I think there kinda starting to become the unbeatable legion at this stage!!

 

 

Er, have you read any of the Space Wolves depictions so far in the HH? I have to mentally chuck out almost all of the Heresy SW material as a SW fan because it is so over the top in god mode mentality.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So I finally finished Fear to Tread today, and I have to ask: what was so bad about their depiction in this novel that triggered the OP's angst? The Alphas got very little screen-time, and we didn't even see them in action. I kept waiting for them to somehow pop up again and spoil someone's fun, but it never happened. So all we know about them in this novel is that they had a plan to make orcs leave an asteroid belt. . . . and it worked. How is that any more god-mode than the Wolves crashing a space station onto a planet? Or Loken's spearhead assault on "Terra" in Horus Rising going off so perfectly?

 

Sheesh. Haters gonna hate, I guess.

[Arachnid99]

I've been defending the Alpha's but I think some people feel we haven't seen them screw up the way a lot of the other Legions have, of course in the older fluff that was the whole point, their campaigns took forever but they went off perfectly because they were brilliants strategists.

[Kol Saresk]

It's that we don't see them screw up, it's that they cover up all but the little things. Like this for example, in [i[Fear to Tread[/i], Alpharius said that it was going to take five years to execute a campaign. They did it one. Now, how often does a Primarch miscalculate? At all? Once in a blue moon? In Deliverance Lost, there was a small breakdown in command structure as each one of the Alphariuses(Is that plural?) were fighting over who was in charge. The Serpent Beneath, we actually see the beginning of an inter-Legion civil war. So it's not that they don't screw up or have their flaws, it's just that their well-covered up.

[Noserenda]

I think you entirely missed the point of that Campaign, it was meant to tie up the Sons of Horus for five years, then Horus sent the Blood Angels instead. The Subtext is they had something different planned I guess. Plan failed :lol:

[Kol Saresk]

The Kayvas Belt that took place just after Ullanor where the Alpha Legion had the Blood Angels play picket duty?

[Noserenda]

Yes, it was that Alpharius' "pet project" put to Horus in one of the earlier books that he decided he couldnt be bothered with so sent the Blood Angels instead.

[Kol Saresk]

Where was that listed? I'm asking because the only mentions I remember of the Alpha Legion in the Heresy novels was when Alpharius was first mentioned at the end of Galaxy in Flames, Legion, Deliverance Lost, The Serpent Beneath and this specific mention in [i[Fear to Tread[/i] which a Blood Angels main story, not Alpha Legion and the only thing that involved a "special project" was Deliverance Lost and The Serpent Beneath.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I think it was in Horus Rising, and it wasn't Alpharius who proposed the mission. It was a captain named Trajus Boniface.

[deepsix81]

I think it was in Horus Rising, and it wasn't Alpharius who proposed the mission. It was a captain named Trajus Boniface.

 

I completely missed that as well, gonna have to re-read. How much were the Alphas ready to reveal to Horus?

[Kol Saresk]

In Horus Rising? Gonna have to reread as well as soon as I finish Fear to Tread, any idea of a general location within the book? Like was it around Murder or the Interex?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I have no clue. Let me go take a look, see if I can find it again.

 

Edit: Found it, page 369-370.

 

Fourteen vessels of the 88th Expedition had also appeared , under the command of Trajus Boniface of the Alpha Legion. Boniface claimed they had come in response to the 140th's plight, and hoped to support the war action on Murder, but it rapidly emerged he hoped to use the opportunity to convince Horus to lend the 63rd's strengths to a proposed offensive into ork-held territories in the Kayvas Belt.

 

It goes on to state that the Kayvas Belt operation -- which we know from Fear To Tread didn't take very long -- that the projection of a five year campaign and ten times the strength the 63rd Expedition come muster was Horus' belief, not Alpharius'.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay found it. Actually it does say that it was Alpharius' prediction.

 

(Page 369, Third Paragraph, Third Sentence)"Fourteen vessels of the 88th Expedition had also appeared, under the command of Trajus Boniface of the Alpha Legion. Boniface claimed they had come in response to the 140th's plight, and hoped to support the war action on Murder, but it rapidly emerged he hoped to use the opportunity to convince(moves to page 370) Horus to lend the 63rd's strengths to a proposed offensive into ork-held territories in the Kayvas Belt. This was a scheme his Primarch, Alpharius, had long cherished and, like the Lion's advances, was a sign that Alpharius sought the approval and comradeship of the new Warmaster.

 

Horus studied the plans in private. The Kayvas Belt offensive was a projected five-year operation, and required ten times the manpower the Warmaster could currently muster.

 

'Alpharius is dreaming,' he muttered, showing the scheme to Loken and Torgaddon. 'I cannot commit myself to this.'"

 

And that is the last we see of it in Horus Rising. Fast forward to Tread to Fear.

 

(Page 52, Fourth Paragraph, First Sentence)"The Alpha Legion had tracked them to their lair and petitioned Horus for the reinforcements required to prosecute their plan of annihilation, but after the war at the world called Murder and the disastrous engagement with the civilisation known as the Interex, the Luna Wolves had been reluctant to commit ships to Alpharius's campaign.

 

In the end, it was the Blood Angels who agreed to assist their cousins in the XX Legion, with Sanguinius himself marshaling(apparently the American spelling of "marshaling" is different from the British spelling) a sizable intervention to support the ships of the 88th Expeditionary Fleet. The mission, Alpharius said, would be five years in execution. The Angel rejected that statement and promised it would be over in one, committing vessels from every active Blood Angels expedition to the cause."

[The Colossus]

Okay found it. Actually it does say that it was Alpharius' prediction.

SNIP

 

Taken at face value, it indeed seems as such. It's all written from Horus and Sanguinus' point of views though- the alphas could be planning anything.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay found it. Actually it does say that it was Alpharius' prediction.

SNIP

 

Taken at face value, it indeed seems as such. It's all written from Horus and Sanguinus' point of views though- the alphas could be planning anything.

And I think that is part of the OP's concern and why some people are strongly influenced to the opinion that the AL have turned into the personal Mary Sue Legion of the 40k universe. Something happens, and more than a few people sit there and go "Well, that is like, totally your opinion. But you need to go deeper man, I know it's radical but I think there was something else going on." Once in a blue moon, there is something about the Alpha Legion that can be taken at face value. Now, what the Alpha Legion exactly did inside the Kayvas Belt, no one really knows. Except that they blew up a planet and that they had orks running left and right into the Blood Angels' guns.

 

And to be fluff-anal on this one, really, really small point, the POVs were Garviel Loken in Horus Rising and Mkani Kano in Fear to Tread.

[Arachnid99]

I agree the Alpha's are unique on the Chaos side in not failing all the time but they will never be the Mary Sue Legion of the GWverse. That will always be the Ultramarines.