Will the Alpha Legion ever fail?

[Legatus]

They don't line up and charge and wave swords around and all that, they infiltrate, the gather intelligence, and they carry out missions.

One problem with the Alpha Legion is: They don't do that. They, the Alpha Legion Space Marines, (generally) don't infiltrate the enemy command structure, and they don't gather intelligence. The Alpha Legion is an army of huge genetically engineered super soldiers in heavy power armour and with miniature fully automatic missile launchers as weapons. They are not infiltrating anything (and the instances where they are seriously described as sneaking members into another Legion or Chapter were obnoyious when they first did it, and it did not get better the next few times). No, they use humans to do all of that stuff. A lot of the Alpha Legion's MO relies on humans. They will be the ones infiltrating the enemy (including pretending to be serfs of a different Legion or Chapter, which is magnitudes easier than pretending to be a Salamanders or Raven Guard Space Marine) and gathering the intelligence. And at some point the actual Alpha Legion will take action and attack, and that will not look that much different from how any other Legion would attack (in that it involves heavy armoured space troopers firing large calibre explosive ammo). But they are not the ones doing all the preliminary action, the sneaking around enemy camps, pretending to be on their side, scouting out the situation. The Alpha Legion is not just the Alpha Legion. The Alpha Legion relies heavily on a network of human spies, and those human spies are as effective and as infallible in their endeavours as the Alpha Legion would have been, since we aren't generally told that enemy forces will root out a number of spies whenever the Alpha Legion gets involved.

It's not just that the Alpha Legion is super sneaky and cannot be caught or second guessed, it's that they rely on humans to do most of that sneaky stuff, and that those humans also cannot be caught or second guessed.

 

This is like as if the Ultramarines travelled everywhere with thousands upon thousands of veteran Ultramar PDF, and their PDF was as impeccable in battle as the Ultramarines, who themselves would only swoop in to deliver the final blow. Their human allies would do all the preliminary work, and be extremely proficient at it, and the Marines come in later to do the final bit of fighting.

[A D-B]

They don't line up and charge and wave swords around and all that, they infiltrate, the gather intelligence, and they carry out missions.

One problem with the Alpha Legion is: They don't do that. They, the Alpha Legion Space Marines, (generally) don't infiltrate the enemy command structure, and they don't gather intelligence. The Alpha Legion is an army of huge genetically engineered super soldiers in heavy power armour and with miniature fully automatic missile launchers as weapons. They are not infiltrating anything (and the instances where they are seriously described as sneaking members into another Legion or Chapter were obnoyious when they first did it, and it did not get better the next few times). No, they use humans to do all of that stuff. A lot of the Alpha Legion's MO relies on humans. They will be the ones infiltrating the enemy (including pretending to be serfs of a different Legion or Chapter, which is magnitudes easier than pretending to be a Salamanders or Raven Guard Space Marine) and gathering the intelligence. And at some point the actual Alpha Legion will take action and attack, and that will not look that much different from how any other Legion would attack (in that it involves heavy armoured space troopers firing large calibre explosive ammo). But they are not the ones doing all the preliminary action, the sneaking around enemy camps, pretending to be on their side, scouting out the situation. The Alpha Legion is not just the Alpha Legion. The Alpha Legion relies heavily on a network of human spies, and those human spies are as effective and as infallible in their endeavours as the Alpha Legion would have been, since we aren't generally told that enemy forces will root out a number of spies whenever the Alpha Legion gets involved.

It's not just that the Alpha Legion is super sneaky and cannot be caught or second guessed, it's that they rely on humans to do most of that sneaky stuff, and that those humans also cannot be caught or second guessed.

 

This is like as if the Ultramarines travelled everywhere with thousands upon thousands of veteran Ultramar PDF, and their PDF was as impeccable in battle as the Ultramarines, who themselves would only swoop in to deliver the final blow. Their human allies would do all the preliminary work, and be extremely proficient at it, and the Marines come in later to do the final bit of fighting.

 

I thought the same, though I guess it comes down to author/writer interpretation. We see it a lot: from what I gather, the Codex Astartes is a good example.

 

Logically, it's the accumulated wisdom of a philosopher-king and one of humanity's greatest warlords. Realistically, in the decaying universe where everyone is wrong about something, it's a 10,000-year-old text that - like the Bible - goes through incorrect interpretations and various adherents following Parts A, B and C over X, Y and Z, or vice versa. We also know time hasn't done it any favours. It's not even known (in 40K) whether the original form was a manuscript, or holo-files, or a compilation of both. We also know that Guilliman's original language used in the Codex is archaic and occasionally unintelligible ten thousand years later, and every copy of the Codex has differences from the others. The Apocrypha of Skaros is rumoured to be the oldest copy, but even that's in doubt.

 

Now, as an example, take how Graham McNeill or Nick Kyme present the Ultramarines. Their Ultramarines are - like every Chapter - flawed to a degree. They stick rigidly to the Codex Astartes, much like religious fundamentalists stick rigidly to whatever parts of the Bible suit their particular beliefs. It's made them hidebound and stubborn at times, as shown in the background material as well. And given that Graham spent the best part of a decade making the IP for 40K, you could argue he knows what the Codex is supposed to be (or, at least, that he has a good handle on a popular variation of it).

 

I tend to view it as a more useful text in my work, but I'm prepared to admit I'm wrong. Either way, it seems like there's room for several interpretations.

 

Another example would be Space Marine retinal displays. I go into a lot of detail about mine, and the way they interface with the Marine's perceptions. Jim Swallow's Blood Angel novels have a group of Blood Angels ignored by Word Bearers, because the Traitors go past the loyalists at night, and both squads are in absolutely filthy red armour, so the Word Bearers assume the Blood Angels are just more of their own Legionaries. That's a trope used often in military fiction (and, I'd wager, real warfare back pre-WWII) and it's very thematic. Makes perfect sense.

 

Conversely, my retinal displays constantly track and target and spill runic data-feeds on what they're seeing. So my Word Bearers' eye lenses would've flickered with warning runes and target locks and ammunition counters the moment they looked at figures in armour that didn't match Word Bearer armour. Additionally, since Marines have the Occulobe implant, their vision is far superior to humans', so they'd not have been deceived by the darkness or the dirt.

 

But both interpretations work. Both hold water.

 

The Alpha Legion is a similar deal. I struggle to see their actual Marines infiltrating other Chapters and Legions, and imagine they use their human resources for infiltration, as noted in Dan's novel Legion, and the older background. But several writers have ventured their perspectives to the contrary now, and so it's become no less valid.

[Pulse]

Conversely, my retinal displays constantly track and target and spill runic data-feeds on what they're seeing. So my Word Bearers' eye lenses would've flickered with warning runes and target locks and ammunition counters the moment they looked at figures in armour that didn't match Word Bearer armour. Additionally, since Marines have the Occulobe implant, their vision is far superior to humans', so they'd not have been deceived by the darkness or the dirt.

That is exactly what the retinal displays should be like, that is the whole point of them. Stick to that formula!

 

 

The Alpha Legion is a similar deal. I struggle to see their actual Marines infiltrating other Chapters and Legions, and imagine they use their human resources for infiltration, as noted in Dan's novel Legion, and the older background. But several writers have ventured their perspectives to the contrary now, and so it's become no less valid.

I can't see the problem with an Alpha Legionnaire infiltrating another chapter/legion, it would be difficult but it is do-able. Still though Legion does go a long way to show you the human aspect of their work, and that is realistic.

[RapatoR]

One problem with the Alpha Legion is: They don't do that.

Well, I would be really careful with this statement in any context. Not trying to invalidate your opinion, but I am tired of folks saying: Nah AL wouldn't really do such thing. For me AL is about doing things that no one expect them to do. We have seen them acting like drunken brawls for example:

They reveal themselves on about a dozen worlds across the Segmentum Obscurus demanding to face the "weakling servants of the dead Emperor". Unable to decline such blatant challenges several Chapters are drawn into pointless battle with the Legion, thereby badly delaying Astartes reinforcements.

Source:

Eye of Terror Campaign:

#GW Newsletter - Week 2

#GW Newsletter - Week 3: (Event Card: "Domination of the Strongest")

 

This is like as if the Ultramarines travelled everywhere with thousands upon thousands of veteran Ultramar PDF, and their PDF was as impeccable in battle as the Ultramarines, who themselves would only swoop in to deliver the final blow. Their human allies would do all the preliminary work, and be extremely proficient at it, and the Marines come in later to do the final bit of fighting.

*sigh* Man this is like beating the air. I posted large number of defeats, shown that nearly half of AL's battle record consists of defeats and people still scream ZOMG UNBEATABLE MARRY SUES!!! I really, really, really doubt that Ultramarines do have such "successful" battle record.

 

I hope I am not offensive, it's just being tiresome... Some people complained that 10 AL marines ambushing and taking down 3 WS bikers is Marry Suish, other claimed that one single AL marine took down whole chapter by himself, somehow ignoring he got massive BL warband behind his back, resources from Despoiler and it took him really, really long time and fair share of luck to carry it out. The fact that AL is not Whipping Boys of Imperium anymore doesn't magically turn them into Marry Sues.

 

And why complaining that AL is OP because they won over orks with aid of another legion? Really? I mean, did any Legion lost during the Great Crusade at all?

And what about other encounters with orks: Ullanor? OMG, Luna Wolves were so OP there! Or Armageddon 2 and 3? OMG Yarrick, not even a space marine, OP!

 

If we look at this entire thing only within framework of HH I think there are several reasons why AL was successful so far:

 

1. AL had prior knowledge of Horus Heresy. That is HUGE advantage.

2. Prior to HH, no one had to deal with infiltration and subterfuge within their ranks. No one even thought such thing is possible and thus I can't imagine Loyalists prepared for it. Which ties to:

3. lack of Inquisition. It's like rabbits in Australia: Put something into environment with no natural predators/competitors and it will fare extremely well.

 

Or you can compare it to Germany in WW2: they had knowledge of incoming conflict and used tactics that their opponents weren't prepared to counter and for 2 years their opponents could not beat them.

[Legatus]

And given that Graham spent the best part of a decade making the IP for 40K, you could argue he knows what the Codex is supposed to be (or, at least, that he has a good handle on a popular variation of it).

Well, he also wrote in the Tyrannic War Veterans, so I don't exactly have a lot of faith.

 

Though you could argue that since he has been writing for them for so long he has now made them into his own.

[Gree]

Logically, it's the accumulated wisdom of a philosopher-king and one of humanity's greatest warlords. Realistically, in the decaying universe where everyone is wrong about something, it's a 10,000-year-old text that - like the Bible - goes through incorrect interpretations and various adherents following Parts A, B and C over X, Y and Z, or vice versa. We also know time hasn't done it any favours. It's not even known (in 40K) whether the original form was a manuscript, or holo-files, or a compilation of both. We also know that Guilliman's original language used in the Codex is archaic and occasionally unintelligible ten thousand years later, and every copy of the Codex has differences from the others. The Apocrypha of Skaros is rumoured to be the oldest copy, but even that's in doubt.

 

In Courage and Honor the Ultramarines have an original copy of the Codex Astartes in their possesion.

 

*sigh* Man this is like beating the air. I posted large number of defeats, shown that nearly half of AL's battle record consists of defeats and people still scream ZOMG UNBEATABLE MARRY SUES!!! I really, really, really doubt that Ultramarines do have such "successful" battle record.

 

For a long time people really had no issue with the Alpha Legion. It is only recently however, in the Horus Heresy series that the Alpha Legion is getting a new depiction and new stories that make people question how they can lose.

 

And given that Graham spent the best part of a decade making the IP for 40K, you could argue he knows what the Codex is supposed to be (or, at least, that he has a good handle on a popular variation of it).

Well, he also wrote in the Tyrannic War Veterans, so I don't exactly have a lot of faith.

 

Though you could argue that since he has been writing for them for so long he has now made them into his own.

 

What? No long counter explanation or criticism of McNeill? I'm suprised at you Legatus.

[A D-B]

Logically, it's the accumulated wisdom of a philosopher-king and one of humanity's greatest warlords. Realistically, in the decaying universe where everyone is wrong about something, it's a 10,000-year-old text that - like the Bible - goes through incorrect interpretations and various adherents following Parts A, B and C over X, Y and Z, or vice versa. We also know time hasn't done it any favours. It's not even known (in 40K) whether the original form was a manuscript, or holo-files, or a compilation of both. We also know that Guilliman's original language used in the Codex is archaic and occasionally unintelligible ten thousand years later, and every copy of the Codex has differences from the others. The Apocrypha of Skaros is rumoured to be the oldest copy, but even that's in doubt.

 

In Courage and Honor the Ultramarines have an original copy of the Codex Astartes in their possesion.

 

True, but in Alan Merrett's Insignium Astartes, (which, to my knowledge, has the most Codex-heavy discussion thus far) no one has the original after 10,000 years. Author interpretation/preference strikes again, methinks.

[Bat33.1]

Another example would be Space Marine retinal displays. I go into a lot of detail about mine, and the way they interface with the Marine's perceptions. Jim Swallow's Blood Angel novels have a group of Blood Angels ignored by Word Bearers, because the Traitors go past the loyalists at night, and both squads are in absolutely filthy red armour, so the Word Bearers assume the Blood Angels are just more of their own Legionaries. That's a trope used often in military fiction (and, I'd wager, real warfare back pre-WWII) and it's very thematic. Makes perfect sense.

 

There are many, many documented historical incidents of this style of scenario happening in combat and certainly more recently than the end of WWII. Maybe Jim's WB's were in 'stealth' mode with displays and sensors turned off to reduce their own chances of being detected? :)

[Saa]

Another example would be Space Marine retinal displays. I go into a lot of detail about mine, and the way they interface with the Marine's perceptions. Jim Swallow's Blood Angel novels have a group of Blood Angels ignored by Word Bearers, because the Traitors go past the loyalists at night, and both squads are in absolutely filthy red armour, so the Word Bearers assume the Blood Angels are just more of their own Legionaries. That's a trope used often in military fiction (and, I'd wager, real warfare back pre-WWII) and it's very thematic. Makes perfect sense.

 

There are many, many documented historical incidents of this style of scenario happening in combat and certainly more recently than the end of WWII. Maybe Jim's WB's were in 'stealth' mode with displays and sensors turned off to reduce their own chances of being detected? :D

 

 

Whilst I disagree with your sentiment I have to say I enjoyed your 'devils advocatism' (is that a word?)

 

Saa

 

.......or something like that

[Pulse]

There are many, many documented historical incidents of this style of scenario happening in combat and certainly more recently than the end of WWII. Maybe Jim's WB's were in 'stealth' mode with displays and sensors turned off to reduce their own chances of being detected? :D

Yes but we arn't in todays world are we, also all you need is night vision and it solves that problem in an instant.

 

Stealth mode? lol.... They must have switched off their eyes as well because as A D-B said Space Marines have Occulobe implants making them see at night as well as they can during the day.

[Lay]

Well, I would be really careful with this statement in any context. Not trying to invalidate your opinion, but I am tired of folks saying: Nah AL wouldn't really do such thing. For me AL is about doing things that no one expect them to do. We have seen them acting like drunken brawls for example:

They reveal themselves on about a dozen worlds across the Segmentum Obscurus demanding to face the "weakling servants of the dead Emperor". Unable to decline such blatant challenges several Chapters are drawn into pointless battle with the Legion, thereby badly delaying Astartes reinforcements.

Source:

Eye of Terror Campaign:

#GW Newsletter - Week 2

#GW Newsletter - Week 3: (Event Card: "Domination of the Strongest")

Nothing unexpected about this example. This was written when the 2nd edition fluff was still valid and the AL was obsessed with proving their superiority over other Space Marines.

[Stormbrow II]

Well, after reading some of this thread it'll be interesting to see how the writers handle the AL's mission to stall (and hopefully to kill) Russ he's returning home after the attack on Prospero, and how they botch it,

thanks to the interfering 3rd party

.

 

I'd like to see them try to infiltrate the Wolves

ala the RG in Deliverance Lost

only to have the unique aspects of the Canis Helix come into play i.e. the Wolves or Russ himself are able to 'sniff out' those that aren't really packmates and mangle them or use them to their own ends. I'm sure whoever is charged with it will do it more justice though.

 

They will fail in their mission from time to time, just like every other Legion did at some point. No one Legion is unbeatable by another.

[DIDM]

isn't the whole thing about them is no one will ever know? They are strictly covert so who knows if they even still exist

[Pavement Artist]

The problem at the minute is people are essentially coming in halfway through the movie and asking why the bad guy isn't dead yet. Read the serpent beneath and deliverance lost. It's clear there's some ground being laid which hints at a split in the legion.

 

We will probably start to bloody lose when our own marines are infiltrating each other.

[Lagbenektelse]

I don't post too often but I have immensely enjoyed this thread. With that said a couple of points:

 

Alpha Legion could be successful in their infiltration because to most of the Legions there is an inherent blind spot when it comes to normal people. Not just serfs but the lowly guy working in the engine room for no other reason than union rules say there should be someone there. Now you take someone who is a servitor in all but name and replace him with a highly dedicated/ brainwashed/ modified human and not only will legionnaires not notice him but a lot of regular humans wont pick up on it either. Best part is this guy is totally expendable. I am getting the sense that not many primarchs or marines would even think to make an integral part of a mission some human that no one would pay attention to except that during shift change he unplugged the gun port(s). Or blew himself up, whatever. This leads to my second point:

 

The reason it might seem the Alpha Legion does not lose is because they really aren't fully committed. Marines and Primarchs as a rule seem to be pretty obstinate and stubborn. Lots of inertia. Instead the AL work incrementally at a bunch of different things all basically set on autopilot. Then if a certain threshold is reached they go in and wreck shop. If the threshold isn't reached they just kind of leave the pieces where they lie.

 

The major issue to both of those points is that they are offensive in nature. And the best defense is a good offense. The AL aren't infallible they are just fighting a foe who is disoriented and not giving that foe a chance to regain their footing. By the sounds of it the adventure with the Khan and the Wolf sounds like the first time they will not be in such a situation and I expect things will get a lot more interesting for all parties involved. Plus that Alpharius and Omegon are not really of one mind could lead to fireworks that no one really sees coming. such as a say, shadowy primarch running the new Inquisition. Perhaps such a position could be bought by a conniving opportunist who isn't very loyal to anything, even their twin who willing sacrifices himself to delay the UM.

 

Course I love all the traitor legions in their own special way.

[Lagbenektelse]

Ideally I hope to see a schism between the aligned and unaligned warp factions...skallathrax would have been an immensely fulfilling setting because at what point do Khornate and Slaaneshi bands even communicate much less organize against a central target

[2000AD]

I see civil war coming in the Alpha..... without a shadow of doubt.... its being hinted at more and more in the books.

 

I wouldnt be at all surprised if Omegon has a big role to play in swinging things towards the loyalists

[Jim Shady]

I´ve reached the point in Fear to Tread where BA and AL are fighting orks, and the AL are superiour as usual. If they´re so great, why didn´t the Emp make all his Legions like them. This is getting silly... Anyone has examples from the HH books where the AL doesn't kick every ones *** without even being noticed doing it?

 

He didn't make them all alike because they all had different roles to play in His greater plan. No point in having 20 Legions that are the same in pretty much every respect. It's not flexible for plans to conquer a galaxy.

[Phoebus]

Will the Alpha Legion ever fail?

 

That question implies that the Alpha Legion has been depicted as being unfairly competent. I would counter with my own opinion, which is that the other Legions have been depicted as being unfairly incompetent.

 

I struggle to see how anything the Alpha Legion has been shown doing - with the exception of potentially infiltrating a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes in the post-Heresy era - has been unrealistic. At least, not given the context of a universe wherein interstellar travel amounts to a trip through Hell, etc.

 

By contrast, most other depictions of Legions at war have struck me as woeful at best. I really hate to sound disrespectful toward someone for whom writing for the Horus Heresy is likely a labor of love... but consider the Iron Hands. Ferrus Manus and his sons don't suffer because Dan Abnett or Rob Sanders wrote the Alpha Legion as implausibly awesome saboteurs/spies/whatever. They suffer because, in their own stories, they fight in a disingenuous manner. They employ tactics that are so archaically basic as to defy suspension of disbelief. In me, at least.

 

Was Omegon's infiltration of that secret station in "The Serpent Beneath" that unrealistic? No. Ferrus Manus becoming such a cliche of anger overriding reason that his best tactic against Horus on Isstvan V amounted to a frontal charge was, however, unrealistically poor. That's just one example.

 

Contrary to popular belief, in fiction you can have your cake AND eat it, too. A theme, such as Ferrus Manus being possessed of a ferocious will and a tempestuous anger can go hand-in-hand with the idea of him being a brilliant tactician and strategist. A being like that CAN be volatile and brilliant, employ grand tactics AND lose at the end of the day. History is rife with such individuals.

 

Another example would be Space Marine retinal displays. I go into a lot of detail about mine, and the way they interface with the Marine's perceptions.

 

... my retinal displays constantly track and target and spill runic data-feeds on what they're seeing. So my Word Bearers' eye lenses would've flickered with warning runes and target locks and ammunition counters the moment they looked at figures in armour that didn't match Word Bearer armour. Additionally, since Marines have the Occulobe implant, their vision is far superior to humans', so they'd not have been deceived by the darkness or the dirt.

Spot on. I love touches like this.

 

Jim Swallow's Blood Angel novels have a group of Blood Angels ignored by Word Bearers, because the Traitors go past the loyalists at night, and both squads are in absolutely filthy red armour, so the Word Bearers assume the Blood Angels are just more of their own Legionaries. That's a trope used often in military fiction (and, I'd wager, real warfare back pre-WWII) and it's very thematic. Makes perfect sense.

...

But both interpretations work. Both hold water.

Agree to disagree, I guess. I loved "Flight of the Eisenstein" and really enjoyed "Fear to Tread". That having been said, I see things like what you pointed out and think, "that author just doesn't get it to the same extent... or he doesn't apply himself as much to showing the nuances of this setting." Going "cheap" on what the technology and Geneseed of the Space Marines can do for them is no less a "sin" in my eyes than skipping out on showing what a nightmare the Warp can be.