adamv6 Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 Can someone explain if I am mis-reading the rules here, but, as far as I am concerned, the opponent only ever gets a +4 cover save, no matter what. For example; A Tau Stealth Suit now gets +3 to cover saves, so gets 2+ cover pretty much everywhere but an open field, however, when they are targetted with Astral Aim, they get 4+ FULLSTOP. The rule specifically states "The target automatically has a 4+ cover save (which cannot be modified by any means)", and the rule fluff states "Little is hidden from the gaze of a Grey Knight Purgation Squad". I was playing a Tau player last night, and was kicking his butt, but felt bad, so didn't argue my point to much. My point being, Purgation Squads have become great for flushing out units with great cover saves if this is the case, which I think it is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pridster Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 i believe you are correct here but i assume this will fall into the dark hole where things like the necron flying transport and str10 hits if it crashes malarky Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/#findComment-3161109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 You get to use the best save available to you. If the Tau suit had a 2+ Cover naturally, they could use that. Or the 4+ granted by AA. Obviosuly, you're not going to use AA's 4+. AA doesn't replace any cover save you might already have, it just gives the target an unmodified 4+ cover save they can use, if they so wish. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/#findComment-3161151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 GML has the right of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/#findComment-3161155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamv6 Posted August 29, 2012 Author Share Posted August 29, 2012 You get to use the best save available to you. I agree with that sentiment Gentlemanloser, however, there are several rules that state otherwise. I suppose I am getting hung up on Wardtard's wording, which I am slowly discovering is a crazy thing to do. My question is, why, if Astral Aim can pick out somebody hiding in cover, with no line of sight, should they get any cover save other than the 4+? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/#findComment-3161189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 My question is, why, if Astral Aim can pick out somebody hiding in cover, with no line of sight, should they get any cover save other than the 4+? The short answer is yes. For the longer answer, hit the OR and search for this topic. ;) We went on at length about this back when the codex was new in 5th and those arguments should still hold water in this edition as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/#findComment-3161193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 however, there are several rules that state otherwise. May I ask which rules? I can't think of any off the top of my head. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/#findComment-3161241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathpoke Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Second Page of the FAQ top right - Units do not gain the benefits of stealth and/or Shroud whilst being shot from a Purgation Squad with Astral Aim. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/#findComment-3162704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Those USR don't work (and give it good use versus Harlie Stars!), but if the target is standing in a Techmaine Bolstered Ruin, they would have a 3+ Cover Save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/#findComment-3162861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamv6 Posted August 31, 2012 Author Share Posted August 31, 2012 however, there are several rules that state otherwise. May I ask which rules? I can't think of any off the top of my head. Gentleman, it wasn't a greatly worded statement by me, I was more thinking about attacks that specifically state saves cannot be taken. :) Deathpoke, that only stands for when night fighting is in place; If the Night Fighting rules are in effect at the time their targets do not benefit from the Stealth or Shrouded special rules Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/#findComment-3163012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judaz Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Just a quick question, do they still get the 4+ against Incinerators? Can Incinerators even be used with AA? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/#findComment-3163059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 You still get a 4+ Cover save versus Incinerators, but as Template Weapons ignore Cover Saves, it does you no good. :yes: Although (folk are going to shoot me for this!), the rules for AA are Codex rules, and Template ignoring Cover saves are BRB rules. And we should all know by now which rule takes precendence. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/#findComment-3163062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathpoke Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 however, there are several rules that state otherwise. May I ask which rules? I can't think of any off the top of my head. Gentleman, it wasn't a greatly worded statement by me, I was more thinking about attacks that specifically state saves cannot be taken. :tu: Deathpoke, that only stands for when night fighting is in place; If the Night Fighting rules are in effect at the time their targets do not benefit from the Stealth or Shrouded special rules And Nightfighting is when tau stealth suits get their bonuses to cover... answering the OP's Question. @gentlemanloser - AA's rules are not the Incinerators rules.. AA gives 4+ cover, Incinerator is a template weapon that ignores armour saves, 2 different things. -Poke- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/#findComment-3165067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 AA rules are codex. they give the target an unmodified 4+ cover save. Templates rules are BRB rules. They let template weapons ignore cover saves. Codex > BRB Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/#findComment-3165259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 AA rules are codex. they give the target an unmodified 4+ cover save. Templates rules are BRB rules. They let template weapons ignore cover saves. Codex > BRB Yes, the power grants you a 4+ cover save, but a template weapon doesn't allow you to use it. There's no conflict of rules there. It would be like saying that because the Grey Knight codex says Terminator Armour grants you a 2+ armour save, but since the rules for armour penetration are in the BRB, you always get your 2+ save. Which of course is complete nonsense. :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/#findComment-3165320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Codex rule gives an unmodified 4+ Cover (the unmodified is the biggie!). BRB rule modifies units cover saves, by not allowing you to use them. Codex wins. :) (Again I would never play it like this, nor do I think it's the 'intent', just a silly byproduct of Codex > BRB!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/#findComment-3165368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Ignoring something isn't modifying it. The current FAQ even goes as far as stating that an Astral Aimed Incinerator still ignores cover saves, so there's really no rules issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/#findComment-3165410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 What is it then? You're denying that unit thier 4+ unmodifiable Cover Save. The Codex states they get it. The BRB states they don't. That's still a conflict, and the Codex wins out. Agian, the stupidly powerful blanket Codex > BRB. Bad GW, bad... The current FAQ even goes as far as stating that an Astral Aimed Incinerator still ignores cover saves Does it? In that case all's good with the world! :) Edit: Checked the FAQ, and there it is int he old FAQ section! WooT! Codex rule is all good now. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/#findComment-3165415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 What is it then? You're denying that unit thier 4+ unmodifiable Cover Save. The Codex states they get it. The BRB states they don't. They still get it, they just can't use it. It's like getting a rental car you can't modify to make it go faster, which you can't use on car-free Sundays. But yes, arguing a moot point here, moving on... :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259817-purgation-squad-astral-aim/#findComment-3165426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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