Descent of Angels and Allied IC jump packers

[cielaq]

If you join BA chaplain with jump pack to BA unit with jump pack, you will still have BA unit, and all the models will have DoA rule.

If you join non-BA model, it will not be BA unit, and (at least) one model will not have DoA rule.

Those are two very different situations.

[Raeven]

If you join BA chaplain with jump pack to BA unit with jump pack, you will still have BA unit, and all the models will have DoA rule.

If you join non-BA model, it will not be BA unit, and (at least) one model will not have DoA rule.

Those are two very different situations.

 

How does the Chaplain get DoA? Chaplains do not have the Descent of Angels special rule.

[Morticon]

If you join BA chaplain with jump pack to BA unit with jump pack, you will still have BA unit, and all the models will have DoA rule.

If you join non-BA model, it will not be BA unit, and (at least) one model will not have DoA rule.

Those are two very different situations.

 

How does the Chaplain get DoA? Chaplains don't get DoA special rule but can take Jump Packs. Neither do Captains for that matter.

 

BA jump packs give DoA.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

If you join BA chaplain with jump pack to BA unit with jump pack, you will still have BA unit, and all the models will have DoA rule.

If you join non-BA model, it will not be BA unit, and (at least) one model will not have DoA rule.

Those are two very different situations.

 

How does the Chaplain get DoA? Chaplains don't get DoA special rule but can take Jump Packs. Neither do Captains for that matter.

 

p62. Jump Pack Wargear entry;

 

"In addition, a Blood Angels model with a jump pack has the Descent of Angels special rule..."

[Morticon]

The rule is not "all models in BA unit with this rule" but "BA unit composed entirely of models with this rule". So you must have both:

- BA-only unit (as if you join non-BA model the unit is no longer "BA unit", as required by the rule), and

- all models must have DoA rule.

Combined unit fails on both of this points.

 

Incorrect assertion from that rule, cielaq.

 

There is nothing to say that you must have a BA only unit - only that the models IN the BA unit be entirely composed of models with this rule.

 

 

My argument up till now has been that a SM Character + BA Unit fulfills this as the BA unit is composed entirely of models with that rule.

 

The counter argument is that when a SM character joins then:

 

A. it is no longer a BA unit

 

OR

 

B. it is a SM + a BA unit.

 

My counter for A has been that I have not yet seen where said unit (eg: a regular assault squad) stops being a BA unit if they are joined by another unit (eg: SM captain)

 

My counter for B has been that in this case the BA unit portion of it fulfills the criteria of DoA - that being all the models in the BA unit are entirely composed of models with that rule.

[Raeven]

Bah. Stupid rules buried within rules. :tu:

 

Anyway, still don't get it unless you have the DoA special rule. It says, BA unit composed entirely of models.. not just BA models.

 

 

A IC that joins the unit is part of the unit. Check

 

DoA does not confer it's special rule to joining characters. Check.

 

It doesn't have DoA. So it is a model within the unit without the DoA rule. Check.

 

No DoA.

[Morticon]

"A Blood Angels unit composed entirely of models with this special rule

 

The unit is not composed entirely of models with this special rule. So the unit doesn't lose the rule per say, but they can't use it while a non DoA model is joined with them.

 

again, as noted- its not the unit that is not composed entirely of models with that special rule, its the BA unit - which I'm arguing fulfills that.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

So you're just going to keep ignoring that an IC joining a unit counts as part of that unit? You don't have a BA unit and a SM unit. You have a BA unit with an attached SM IC. Ergo, no DoA.

 

But this is O.R, so carry on with the tenuous semantics.

[Morticon]

Bah. Stupid rules buried within rules. :tu:

 

Anyway, still don't get it unless you have the DoA special rule. It says, BA unit composed entirely of models.. not just BA models.

 

is your argument then that an ally SM captain when joined is a BA unit?

[Morticon]

So you're just going to keep ignoring that an IC joining a unit counts as part of that unit? You don't have a BA unit and a SM unit. You have a BA unit with an attached SM IC. Ergo, no DoA.

 

But this is O.R, so carry on with the tenuous semantics.

 

Dont get shirty mate - im not ignoring anything.

I'm trying to address it as it comes up. Relax yourself to a mild disdain.

 

Question goes to you and Raeven then, does that IC joining a unit then become a BA unit?

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

That's not really an argument, that's just what the rules say.

 

EDIT -Yes, he joins the BA unit and counts as part of the BA unit for all intents and purposes.

[Morticon]

(for info sake, i think this was answered quite a few posts ago by the guy that quoted the IC rule on page 39).

 

edit: i just personally have a hard time reconciling that said unit (SM+BA) is now a "BA" unit- hence my questioning.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

edit: i just personally have a hard time reconciling that said unit (SM+BA) is now a "BA" unit- hence my questioning.

 

That's because it's not? :)

 

For that unit to remain a Blood Angels unit every model within its composition would need to be a Blood Angels character or model selected from the Blood Angels Codex.

 

An Allied C:SM Captain is not a Blood Angels character or model and is not selected from C:BA - to further that point I would expect, if your opponent, you to have the relevant Codex to use him (as I'm sure you would have).

 

At no point does anything suggest that if the Captain joins the unit he becomes a Blood Angels character. Whilst I know some quick-wit will also point out that nor does anything state he doesn't (feel free to put me right here if something does, my head is stuffy from illness today) there is no way in the seven circles of hell that any rule suddenly makes him a choice from C:BA rather than C:SM.

 

Prior to C:SM IC joining = BA unit

During C:SM IC attachment = BA/SM unit, or non-BA unit if you want to get strict about it

After C:SM IC leaves = BA unit.

 

The inclusion of the C:SM IC, of whatever strip, alters the anatomy of the unit and thus whilst all the BA models in the unit possess the rule required, it is no longer strictly a BA unit and the IC (as part of that unit) does not possess the rule.

 

I'd like to point out that typing that out coherently physically hurt. Thank you and goodnight! :tu:

[cielaq]

If you join non-terminator IC to terminator unit, this unit is no longer terminator unit. It cannot teleport for instance.

It's basically the same situation - if you have XXX unit, and you join IC that is not XXX to this unit, the unit is no longer XXX unit.

Claiming that non-BA IC can use DoA rule is like claiming that character without a jump pack can deep strike if he joins Assault squad - after all the unit can DS, and he is part of the unit, right? :thanks:

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Claiming that non-BA IC can use DoA rule is like claiming that character without a jump pack can deep strike if he joins Assault squad - after all the unit can DS, and he is part of the unit, right? :thanks:

 

Except that doesn't work on the basis that a non-JP IC can't join a JP Assault Squad anyway, you're trying to build that as something similar but at its base it's flawed.

[Acebaur]

Claiming that non-BA IC can use DoA rule is like claiming that character without a jump pack can deep strike if he joins Assault squad - after all the unit can DS, and he is part of the unit, right? :thanks:

 

Except that doesn't work on the basis that a non-JP IC can't join a JP Assault Squad anyway, you're trying to build that as something similar but at its base it's flawed.

 

Sure he can. An IC can join almost any unit(except vehicles and single model units), but the unit will move at the speed of the slowest model. So a JP unit joined by a non-jump pack IC cannot use their JP while he is joined and cannot DS if held in reserve.

 

My argument up till now has been that a SM Character + BA Unit fulfills this as the BA unit is composed entirely of models with that rule.

 

So how do you justify the IC gaining the benefit of DoA when nothing says he does and doing so would directly violate the IC rules on page 38?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Claiming that non-BA IC can use DoA rule is like claiming that character without a jump pack can deep strike if he joins Assault squad - after all the unit can DS, and he is part of the unit, right? :thanks:

 

Except that doesn't work on the basis that a non-JP IC can't join a JP Assault Squad anyway, you're trying to build that as something similar but at its base it's flawed.

 

Sure he can. An IC can join almost any unit(except vehicles and single model units), but the unit will move at the speed of the slowest model. So a JP unit joined by a non-jump pack IC cannot use their JP while he is joined and cannot DS if held in reserve.

 

Since when?!

 

I thought they were just prevented from joining the unit.. Ah the misapprehensions of youth!

[Raeven]

Question goes to you and Raeven then, does that IC joining a unit then become a BA unit?

 

 

For the purpose of rules, yes the IC is a member of the unit. Pg 39, last sentence in the left block in the IC subsection.

 

You are seperating the models within the unit into distinct categories of BA unit members and non unit members, when the wording of the rule does not support such distinction and simply talks about all members of the unit..BA status or not.

[cielaq]

I know he becomes part of the unit, but that doesn't mean that he gets all the abilities of the unit he joins. If IC without JP/bike joins a unit with them, he doesn't magically start jumping very high/running very fast. IC in PA that joins Terminators, he can't shoot rapid fire weapons and assault.

And if he doesn't have DoA, he won't get it if he joins DoA unit (whether he is BA or not).

[Acebaur]

Claiming that non-BA IC can use DoA rule is like claiming that character without a jump pack can deep strike if he joins Assault squad - after all the unit can DS, and he is part of the unit, right? :o

 

Except that doesn't work on the basis that a non-JP IC can't join a JP Assault Squad anyway, you're trying to build that as something similar but at its base it's flawed.

 

Sure he can. An IC can join almost any unit(except vehicles and single model units), but the unit will move at the speed of the slowest model. So a JP unit joined by a non-jump pack IC cannot use their JP while he is joined and cannot DS if held in reserve.

 

Since when?!

 

I thought they were just prevented from joining the unit.. Ah the misapprehensions of youth!

 

Pretty much as long as I can remember ;) I know it was the case in 5th and it remains so in 6th

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Claiming that non-BA IC can use DoA rule is like claiming that character without a jump pack can deep strike if he joins Assault squad - after all the unit can DS, and he is part of the unit, right? <_<

 

Except that doesn't work on the basis that a non-JP IC can't join a JP Assault Squad anyway, you're trying to build that as something similar but at its base it's flawed.

 

Sure he can. An IC can join almost any unit(except vehicles and single model units), but the unit will move at the speed of the slowest model. So a JP unit joined by a non-jump pack IC cannot use their JP while he is joined and cannot DS if held in reserve.

 

Since when?!

 

I thought they were just prevented from joining the unit.. Ah the misapprehensions of youth!

 

Pretty much as long as I can remember :lol: I know it was the case in 5th and it remains so in 6th

 

I was never much for rules but I have doing myself over in test games something fierce then.

[Ideaus]

IC special states - Unless specified in the rule itself, the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the IC (page 39 BRB) so no and allied IC can not use the DoA neither would a BA IC if he didn't have the rule himself (eg was not equip with JP)