Red Corsairs legion strength...

[Magnus Thane]

The timeline near the end of the new rulebook states the Corsairs may be roughly Legion-size.

Any opinions on this? Is it likely? Does it include Cultists/Traitor Guard etc? Or literally that many fallen Marines?

Doesn't that make Huron potentially the biggest Chaos Space Marine player next to Abaddon? (or arguably a little lower on the totem pole after some others)

Quite the achievement for a 'late comer' compared to all those Horus Heresy Die Hard marines...

[The Colossus]

That's a bone of contention for many people. My personal opinion is that it's a case of cultists making up the numbers, although he could have a fair few marines.

[space wolf]

The fluff since 2nd ed, has pretty much stated, that Huron is the 2nd most powerful Chaos Lord in the galaxy, in terms of the size of his forces. However, there is a big difference between Abbadon and him. Abbadon wants to see the Imperium burn. I'm willing to bet Huron is perfectly content to have the Imperium exist as long as it doesn't interfere with his desires. Vengeful fanatic vs pirate...

[Magnus Thane]

A legion of CSM's seems way over the top for me too. But the idea of him having the size of a chapter or 2-3 is not that unbelievable. Perhaps even more.

He did get his hands on a lot of geneseed too. And most likely he's the direction naughty Marines flee to on average on his side of the galaxy.

 

Regardless he definately seems to have gone from a minor nuissance (the early days of a stray warband with renegades slapping red paint over their heraldry) into a more cohesive and deadly force backed up by large hordes of fodder.

 

I really like the idea of his 'type' of CSM force.

[Lord Ragnarok]

The fluff since 2nd ed, has pretty much stated, that Huron is the 2nd most powerful Chaos Lord in the galaxy, in terms of the size of his forces. However, there is a big difference between Abbadon and him. Abbadon wants to see the Imperium burn. I'm willing to bet Huron is perfectly content to have the Imperium exist as long as it doesn't interfere with his desires. Vengeful fanatic vs pirate...

 

I don't think Huron is just a "Pirate". The bite of vengeance would be very deep given the Badab war, it's reason for starting and it's outcome. Due to his humble re-beginnings once aligning with the chaos gods he started more as a Pirate due to necessity. But by now in the timeline he is approaching something far more sinister.

 

I think the fires of vengeance that burn for each is vastly different. I suspect the forces under their command are also different. *Guessing....Abaddon has more skilled and veteran Legionnaires, and very weak Humans. I see Huron as having less skilled SM's (versus the Black Legion), and more skilled Human Reavers.

 

In terms of if it is believed. It's already stated in the rule book and one other Codex about the size. Not sure how that is debatable. Keep in mind that may not just be marines.

 

 

Quite the achievement for a 'late comer' compared to all those Horus Heresy Die Hard marines...

My personal Impression is that Huron is the most charismatic Chaos Lord out there and is a very "attractive" leader for the wayward marine who has turned from the Imperium. Now when you do things that fast it can't be great quality and I'm sure there are tons of back stabbers and spies in his force.

[space wolf]

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm pretty sure Huron has several problems with the Imperium he would like to sort out in a violent manner. However, his ultimate goal, I don't think has ever been complete conquest or destruction. It seems to me, he is one whose primary motivation is personal gain, which screams pirate to me. Maybe not, "Drink up me hearties, there be gold on these here ships!" kind of pirate, but pirate none-the-less.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm pretty sure Huron has several problems with the Imperium he would like to sort out in a violent manner. However, his ultimate goal, I don't think has ever been complete conquest or destruction. It seems to me, he is one whose primary motivation is personal gain, which screams pirate to me. Maybe not, "Drink up me hearties, there be gold on these here ships!" kind of pirate, but pirate none-the-less.

 

Agreed 100 percent. :P

 

Although, in my personal fluff in the future from the current timeline, he allies with Abaddon for a joint push from the Eye and the Maelstrom. They agree in principle, that there will be another war to settle on who owns the imperium, after the Imperials are defeated.

[Spinsanity]

Note : Going from memory here so please excuse any inaccuracy... :confused:

The Claws turned renegade because they wanted to cede from the Imperium, not because they wanted it destroyed... As the protector of their realm and the surrounding region, they figured they were owed ownership of it in a way which is not all that dissimilar from the Ultramarines' reign over Ultramar. They turned traitor when the Imperium attacked them and decided to defend themselves instead of surrendering.

 

Of course, the attack was not as undeserved as the tyrant would have his followers believe, since the Claws had defied many of the Imperium's rules (although to be fair, he no longer considered them his rulers): he had stopped providing the administratum with geneseed tythes and his chapter's strength had swelled far beyond the regulated quota...

 

He ended up in a situation which is not all that dissimilar from the one a xeno or non-compliant planet/system would be : after all, the Imperium will always - eventually - attack any world which is not one of their own.

 

+ Edit : Gee, I got distracted and forgot to add some of my thoughts on the matter :down:

 

The Tyrant is a very charismatic leader, which could easily explain why he now has as many followers as claimed; after all, he DID convince not only his chapter-legion to rebel but also 3 others... And his chapter numbered well above the usual 1k marines when he first turned traitor (although how many remained by the end of the war I have no idea...)

[incinerator950]

Speculation paints 200 Authentic Corsairs and several unidentified Renegades and Traitor marines joining him.

 

I recall the Lexi interpreting his Piracy as the sheer thrill of the action of Piracy as his motive. Although I also see a deeper delving into Chaos eventually.

[Pariah Mk.231]

Around two hundred Astral Claws escaped after the Badab War, though they likely took with them a great deal of withheld geneseed, probably enough to eventually rebuild their strength once they regained the rescources to do so. As other marines turned traitor and found their way to him, they likely would have brought with them not only fresh geneseed to cultivate, but also possibly expertise and equipment needed to begin manufacturing new marines and the gear they'd need. It's possible entire chapters at a time turned traitor and joined Huron, bringing with them their entire armouries and resource stockpiles, again adding yet more geneseed to be multiplied. As the stockpile of geneseed grows from not only new renegades, but also from his original marines, his forces would grow exponentially, with each marine reproducing the geneseed within himself to make yet more marines, who also start reproducing geneseed.

It's probable that Huron's forces also includes a number of marines from the original traitor legions who have grown tired of the constant infighting in the Eye and are looking for a more unified faction. I wouldn't put it past some wandering warbands, cut off from the Eye, to pledge their alliegance to Huron in exchange for re-supply and a haven between raids, again boosting the numbers when it comes to counting how many marines Huron commands.

 

Since Huron is selective about his targets and never commits to lengthy engagements, the attrition rate of his marines would most likely be fairly low. And they're not culling their own numbers with constant warfare like those legions living in the Eye. Fully equipped veterans can launch raids against ships leaving forge worlds and the like carrying immense stockpiles of war materials, possibly even carrying stocks of equipment for the Astartes chapters, gaining what they need to equip yet more marines. It's likely Huron also possesses some form of manufacturing capability of his own within the Maelstrom, enslaving other inhabitants of his realm to produce weapons, armour and vehicles for their new master.

Every new addition to Huron's forces expands the options for growth. Renegade apothecaries bring the ability to implant geneseed into new recruits at higher rates, renegade techmarines can produce new weapons and armour as well as keep the existing gear in working order. It goes on, each specialist that joins increases the rate at which niche produces needed materials.

 

With those factors in mind, I can believe that Huron commands a force of marines near legion strength, but since he already has a realm to command he has no need to wage a full blown war on the Imperium, instead limiting himself to taking what he needs, inflicting pain on the Imperium and loaning his troops out as allies to other warlords for their wars.

[Kol Saresk]

Here's some more food for thought, what exactly is "Legion strength"? If you look at the Horus series from the beginning to current, it starts out with roughly a couple hundred thousand Marines traveling in one or two Expeditions with everyone broken down into a few companies and a Chapter being a different Expedition from the one the Primarch is leading, although this does vary from Legion to Legion(Ultramarines and Word Bearers). The Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus only have one Expedition with Ten Companies but around one hundred thousand Marines. Death Guard are one Expedition with only Seven Companies and similar number of Marines. The Emperor's Children had two entire Expeditions, I believe I saw a rank for Captain of the Thirteenth Company in the Fulgrim Dramatis Personae and while no approximate number is given, they are said to be the weakest of the Legions as far as numbers go. From there, it varies from Legion to Legion, (ie Ultramarines and Word Bearers each numbering very high in numbers of Expeditions, Companies/Chapters and numbers of Marines, Dark Angels with an unsure number of Expeditions and Chapters with at least one Chapter attached to each Expedition and the Alpha Legion who instead travel as individual units of varying strength who attach themselves to Expeditions). And an Expedition doesn't just consist of the Astartes either, it has Imperial Army units as well. And there are more than a few mentions of Titan Legios accompanying Expeditions from just a few to an entire Legio. So what it comes down to is, just what is considered "Legion strength." I am sure that there are more than a few million mortals who work "with" the Red Corsairs and carry Huron's banner. According to some of the BL published works(and probably a few GW works that I haven't seen), there are Renegade Chapters and Legion Warbands that occasionally wear/fight under his flag as well, much like under a Black Crusade. So to be honest, it's probably no problem that since he is Tyrant of the Maelstrom that all Renegades from mortals to xenos to Astartes hiding out in the Maelstrom have either fought with or under him at some point.

 

Legion strength could also be representative of the general strength of the "modern" Legions which, while devastating, is relatively weaker than what it once was.

 

There is also the possibility that while he is raiding a convoy or weak planet that some of the defenders pledge loyalty to him in order to survive the battle.

[Magnus Thane]

Gildar's Rift shows he's a lunatic but also a brilliant strategist that stands head and shoulders over his peers.

He's massive, without Terminator armor dwarfing fellow Marines. He knows intense pain at all times and outwits the best Strategist of the Silver Skulls over and over.

He's very egocentric, driven by his personal agendas no more no less. And he is HIGHLY favored by Chaos.

His own entourage is also very loyal. The bedrock of his inner circle being Astral Claws and his Corpsemaster.

His Champion though seems to be just the toughest guy around at that moment.

 

Night Lord novel shows him more at a moment when he's begun to reach his peak. Less ammo problems as in the Gildar Rift novel and everyone is starting to have

more uniform colors. Once more he's depicted as a cunning fellow.

 

He's also a char who has moments of 'sanity' at which he goes that 'extra mile'. His partially robotic face at times makes him 'drool' a bit.

 

He also kicks ass in close combat... his fight in Gildar Rift against the hero and some other fellows is simply glorious...

[Trevak Dal]

A legion of CSM's seems way over the top for me too. But the idea of him having the size of a chapter or 2-3 is not that unbelievable. Perhaps even more.

He did get his hands on a lot of geneseed too. And most likely he's the direction naughty Marines flee to on average on his side of the galaxy.

 

Regardless he definately seems to have gone from a minor nuissance (the early days of a stray warband with renegades slapping red paint over their heraldry) into a more cohesive and deadly force backed up by large hordes of fodder.

 

I really like the idea of his 'type' of CSM force.

 

Yeah, that's one of the draws for me, none/not much of the old school Daddy issues. Plus its cool to be Pirates. I wonder if Huron's gonna have a lightning claw or if it's going to stay a powerfist in the New Hotness?

[Magnus Thane]

Same here. I'm curious.

I'd love for Huron to have:

 

1) Eternal Warrior

2) Mastercrafted power armor

3) An excellent power weapon of some type/sort. A lightning claw with special rules seems best.

4) A special power/impact like say -> all Chaos Space Marine bikes are troop choices (Hounds of Huron) or some sort of army-wide ability to reflect his strategic mind and tendency for fast powerful assaults to 'gain something'

5) A non crippling downside in return for such an ability is acceptable, something that reflects the fact he does seem to go 'frenzied' sometimes. (partially due to his insanity / the pain / his hatred)

[Lord Ragnarok]

From the rumors I thought I read he is pretty much the same as in the 4th ed. dex.

 

For me, I would love to represent him as an Abaddon count as.

[Ifrit446]

Using him as an Abby-Counts As would be pretty sweet, and it would make sense with WYSIWYG too since the similar equipment.

 

Not to derail the thread, but have you guys seen other Red Corsair players?? I'm in the Chicagoland GW zone and I haven't seen ANY of them...I know the other main legions are getting most of the love right now, but are the Corsairs seriously that underplayed???

[Magnus Thane]

I'm actually starting them. Bar a Deathwing Dread and some Deathwing Termies to complement my Greenwing Dark Angels I'm done with my loyalists for this edition and my 'opposing' force will be Red Corsairs.

 

I hesitated first Night Lords then Iron Warriors but after reading some short stories and Gildars Rift I've really taken a liking to Huron... so now I play Red Corsairs.

I'll make them Cultist heavy with a very very dark red scheme. (big on badab black wash) with a lot of pouches and extra weaponry.

I'm purposely making them gritty heavily armed fighters using salvaged armor among their own origianl armors.

The fact they're a bit underused also adds to their appeal :)

[Eetion]

I'm also starting the Corsairs.

 

Starting with a BFG fleet. Then expanding it to the corsairs themselves. I'm leaning towards the heavily corrupted.

[Kol Saresk]

Someone was nice enough to supply with a picture of the troop profiles, straight from the Codex. i can make out Huron Blackheart. His stats are:

 

WS: 6

BS: 5

S: 4

T: 4

W: 3

I: 5

A: 3

Ld: 10

Sv: 3+

 

That's all I have on him. He does exist as an Independent Character and his stats are the same.

[Hellios]

Legion strength could also be representative of the general strength of the "modern" Legions which, while devastating, is relatively weaker than what it once was.

 

That is very vague... Some legions might be near enough as large as they have ever been. The Word Bearers are pretty big, although they were very big before the HH so they may well be smaller now. My understanding is that the Iron Warriors (or some of those Warbands from that legion) have been rebuilding their companies to at least HH size. One can only speculate on the overall size of the legion. The black legion is hard. It has certainly gown a lot but was almost destroyed, do we count legionnaires who originate from other legions?

 

I'm not sure if 1st War of Armageddon was before or after the breaking of the World Eaters, but if it was after the fact he could gather together 50K berzerkers is rather impressive considering they are one of the smallest legions. I realise that berzerker is not the same as World Eater but a good number of those must be World Eaters... I would be willing to bet at least half... World Eaters are also one of the legions least likely to rebuild themselves and have high levels of attrition.

 

Then we have the 1ksons... Who might only number around 1,000 marines, although once again it depends on who we count. Do we just count sorcerers? If so we might be looking at hundreds rather than a thousand but if we include rubrics then maybe they have more than we would imagine.

 

Still 1K-100K+ is very variable. I could believe Huron could Match the 1ksons... Easily even... Not sure he has enough marines that he would be matching legions with 50+ marines. If he has he is far more powerful than he was during the Badab war... So if he wanted to carve out an Empire he probably could.

[Kol Saresk]

It's not just the numbers though. It's the coherency. Almost none of the modern Legions possess the infrastructure they had back in the Heresy. And that does take away from their strength. The Word Bearers, Black Legion and Alpha Legion are the only ones that I know of that are cohesive and that only goes so far.

[Hellios]

It's not just the numbers though. It's the coherency. Almost none of the modern Legions possess the infrastructure they had back in the Heresy. And that does take away from their strength. The Word Bearers, Black Legion and Alpha Legion are the only ones that I know of that are cohesive and that only goes so far.

 

Wut... No one knows anything about the Alpha Legion do they? The cells could be working together in some grand scheme or then again they might not. Has new fluff been published in the new codex?

 

It is true that Huron might lead a more powerful Warband than most Chaos Lords Warbands and that is one thing... but when you say legion you imply the unified strength of those who still identify themselves as that legion or maybe where primarchs exist you might count all those who would answer their call. If Angron is anything to go by then a call made by most of the Primarchs could probably attract a good number of followers.

 

Perturabo might not rule all the Iron Warriors but if he calls how many will resist and how long will that resistance last?

[Kol Saresk]

It's not just the numbers though. It's the coherency. Almost none of the modern Legions possess the infrastructure they had back in the Heresy. And that does take away from their strength. The Word Bearers, Black Legion and Alpha Legion are the only ones that I know of that are cohesive and that only goes so far.

 

Wut... No one knows anything about the Alpha Legion do they? The cells could be working together in some grand scheme or then again they might not. Has new fluff been published in the new codex?

That's the thing, it's both. Arkos the Faithless is for all intents and purposes, separated from the Alpha Legion. He is not a part of it. But the Alpha Legion does have an overall command structure of sorts. There are still rogue cells. Like Voldorius. So yes, the main Legion is cohesive, but not all of it isn't.

 

It is true that Huron might lead a more powerful Warband than most Chaos Lords Warbands and that is one thing... but when you say legion you imply the unified strength of those who still identify themselves as that legion or maybe where primarchs exist you might count all those who would answer their call. If Angron is anything to go by then a call made by most of the Primarchs could probably attract a good number of followers.

And that is exactly why I asked the OP what he meant by Legion strength back in my first post. It was in the very big, very long first paragraph and helps the extremely short second paragraph seem not so "vague".

[Hellios]

And that is exactly why I asked the OP what he meant by Legion strength back in my first post. It was in the very big, very long first paragraph and helps the extremely short second paragraph seem not so "vague".

 

I understood your first post. My point was whatever definition you use. You have legions like the Word Bearers who seem to be fairly cohesive and are probably bigger than some of the other legions were during the great crusade even if you don't count the Thousand Sons. Then you have the Thousand Sons who may very well be outnumbered by a few of the present day loyalist chapters. We still come to the issue that at least one legion is very small and a few seem to be both unified and large with other legions filling in the various shades of grey in the middle.