Deiros Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Hi! This is me trying to flesh out a mostly unknown Chapter to use as my allies. While a quick and dirty way would be to just use Chaos Space Marines and marks of Nurgle, I would like to flesh them out more since they seem to be something more than that and give them their own identity even if it is suggested they might be from the Death Guard gene-seed or maybe a tempered gene-seed like may others of the Cursed Founding. I did a search in the site and found a very nice (not 100% finished fluff) for the Sons of Antaeus (courtesy of Codex Grey and everything in that IA is of his making). http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...&hl=Antaeus Keeping the theme of what little fluff exists plus what Codex Grey has written down I thought about giving them the following: Sons of Antaeus (Tabletop rules): Augmented Skeleton: +1 Toughness and -1 Initiative Gigas Might: Bulky and Fearless. Vehicles and Walker gain the Extra Armor upgrade for free. Any ideas as to the basic chapter traits besides some of the wargear the chapter will be more characteristic for, for example the lack of razorbacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Having +1T and Feel No Pain may be a bit much; particularly since combining them makes FnP even stronger (raising the Instant Death limit). I'd suggest just sticking to +1T, similarly to the old chapter approved rules for them. Is the lack of the -1I in this one intentional? It strikes me as a good negative since it only limits certain approaches, favoring slow, brutal things just as Axes, Fists and Hammers, which feels appropriate. The old Chapter Approved stuff only had limited access to Razorbacks, not a complete lack. Bulky means that they couldn't actually enter Razorbacks; thus, players probably wouldn't include many, and only use those for fire support. Adding a rule limiting Razorback use is probably unnecessary because of that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3162490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deiros Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 Concerning razorbacks I was just between dropping them from dedicated support or make them 5 pts cheaper since they are no longer transports? Sons of Antaeus (Tabletop rules): Augmented Skeleton: +1 Toughness and -1 Initiative Gigas Might: Bulky and ??????. You are probably right about the FnP special rule, that would just make them almost impossible to kill, but Bulky doesn't grant them any benefit except that they count as 2 for transport capacity do to their enormous size so maybe relentless to off set this somehow as they are the size of a normal marine in terminator armor? Maybe just make them Fearless do to the over confidence in their enhanced capabilities to shrug of damage that would kill a normal marine. This would mean their terminator take 3 spots in a transport basically making LR into more of a transport for their regular marines and the rhino becomes some sort of "razorback" in the transport capacity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3162573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Fearless would be a fine addition, since it's less adding a USR as it is replacing an existing one (ATSKNF). Probably best not to tweak the price of the Razorback/alter Ded. Transports; as-is they'd still see some use for fire support, and optimizing them to perfectly gel with the Sons would make them a lot more common, which we want to avoid. As-is, the wording wouldn't make Termies take up 3 spaces; "Bulky" doesn't stack, so they'd only take up 2 spaces. Personally, I'd say that's reasonable balancewise, perhaps their Termie armour doesn't increase their size greatly enough to go from Bulky to Very Bulky? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3162674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deiros Posted August 31, 2012 Author Share Posted August 31, 2012 The problem is that the regular Sons of Antaeus Space marine in power armor is Bulky (2 spaces) and if you suit them up with an armor that a normal Space Marine takes 2 spaces, this guys by logic will go up to 3 spaces or very very near the limit of it. ons of Antaeus (Tabletop rules): Augmented Skeleton: +1 Toughness and -1 Initiative Gigas Might: Bulky and Fearless This doesn't' sound unreasonable I hope as they are slower than regular marines do to their size but they are tougher and they are more "confident" or over confident on their endurance to withstand damage making themselves some sort of a wall were the enemies waves can collide. You are probably right about the pricing of the razorback, but they would be a transport for Honor Guard which I suppose kind of make sense. This "chariot" that drives the strongest of the chapter forward. I just wish bulky would give them some benefit but they basically pay for every benefit with sort of penalty and was looking to give them some bonus somewhere, just can't pin what or were. Probably something wargear wise, like treating Power Axes as unwieldy do to their greater size the can manage weapon some other people find big its not that big for them? Relentless is to much but I was thinking something similar just toned down or very specific. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3162685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deiros Posted August 31, 2012 Author Share Posted August 31, 2012 Any more ideas or help would be appreciated. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3163445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Keep in mind with Bulky that it doesn't limit all possible ways of using the army, only limits using them as a mechanized army, which isn't a huge sacrifice since it seems that in 6th neither mech nor footsloggers have an inherent advantage over the other. They can't do mech, but they make excellent footsloggers (hence why the second negative is needed). With termie armor - the most literal/logical approach would definitely be that they go from Bulky to Very Bulky, but sizes in 40k are vague enough that it could be ignored in the interest of balance/keeping the army fun to play (of course, deep striking's much more viable when you're T5, so might not be necessary). Fluffwise, it could be that SoA termie armour isn't quite as bulky since they don't need as many servo-motors supporting it as other Marines do, due to their increased bulk (the relatively form-fitting Power Armour wouldn't benefit from this). Still, noting that SoA in Terminator Armour are Very Bulky wouldn't stop people from using SoA Termies, so Very Bulky is probably the better choice. To give a use for Razorbacks - maybe introduce a new bodyguard-type unit for the SoA, a unit of 2 elite SoA (with 2 wounds each)? That way, this unit along with an Ind. Character would fit in a Razorback. Plus, the only other Chapter ever know to have a 2-man bodyguard unit was the Death Guard, which the SoA have a mysterious rumored connection to. Edit: Rough concept; SoA 2-man Bodyguard Guard544523293+ SoA 2-man Bodyguard..........xx points Infantry 2 Guards Power Armor Close Combat Weapon Bolt Pistol Frag and Krak Grenades Fearless Bulky Rhino or Razorback (only if equipped with Power Armour) Drop Pod Land Raider (inc. Crusader and Redeemer) Options:Any Guard may replace his Close Combat Weapon and/or Bolt Pistol with a:Storm Bolter: +3pts Combiweapon: +5pts Power Weapon, Lightning Claw or Plasma Pistol: +15pts Power Fist: +20pts Thunder Hammer or Storm Shield: +25pts [*]If not quipped with Close Combat Weapons and/or Pistols, both models may exchange their Frag and Krak Grenades and Power Armour for Terminator Armour: +25pts Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3163523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 I don't think that Bulky is necessary - they are larger and tougher....but no so much that they would be inhibited using transports. What they are is cursed - and their rules should reflect that. In 3rd edition, GW represented that fact with one simple rule: They are not under the Emperor's protection and so cannot benefit from ATSKNF. I have always felt this fitting for any Chapter from a Cursed Founding. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3163582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deiros Posted September 1, 2012 Author Share Posted September 1, 2012 Bulky is for fluff reasons and to give them a certain play style I suppose. They are named after a giant that was invulnerable so long as he was touching the ground (son of Poseidon and Gaia). While I do agree they should have some sort of curse, the fluff has changed for some chapters of the cursed founding. Minotaurs and Black Dragon are under the wing of the Emperor (one more than the other), I was giving the Sons of Antaeus their own identity as an army, playing to their curse as being lower in mechanized things, which is what was also a characteristic of Cursed Founding chapter had. So I worked with their list a bit and brought it up to 6th edition (hopefully good enough). HQ Chapter Master Captain Librarian Chaplain Honor Guard Command Squad** (Special Guard) (Maybe an "emperor's champion like guy here") Elite Terminator Assault* Terminator Squad* Dreadnought (Another Dreadnought. Some other kind of dreadnought since venerable and iron clad are to rare for them or simply use the regular dread chasis and added more things to it to create their own version?) Sternguard Troops Tactical Squad** (Maybe another unit here) Scouts Fast Attack Assault Squad Bike Squadron* Vanguard Vets Heavy Support Devastator Squad** Predator Vindicator Whirlwind Land Rider (Any)* *Do to the lack of resources you may only field 1 of these units. **Do to the Sons of Antaeus size and lack of resources, these units may not be mounted in Razorbacks. For balance reasons I will leave Terminators as counting for 2 spaces as they will be in the "edge" of being very bulky. This is a heavy footslogger with the lack of a lot of other vehicles which even normal chapters have. They are Fleet based, so they only probably restock in some AdMech worlds. The old list has Abominations which have rules that no longer apply so they would look like possessed chaos marines, which would be completely improper for a Chapter that is not renegade and works for the IoM. They did had an Elite unit called Cursed Knights, but they are basically an Honor Guard now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3163596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 I don't think that Bulky is necessary - they are larger and tougher....but no so much that they would be inhibited using transports.The reasoning behind Bulky was to shape the army's playstyle, limiting them in appropriate ways so that the (strong) bonus doesn't require a per model point increase. Transports augment a unit's toughness (particularly against small arms fire) and ram them into the throat of the opposing army - +1T complements that very well, too well, I'd imagine. Bulky mainly limits them to footslogging, which they'd still excel at, just not as intensely. Plus, discouraging Transports dovetails nicely with the "lack of resources" angle. Effectively replacing ATSKNF with Fearless is intended to have a similar effect, allowing them to be a bit suicidally brave at the cost of tactical flexibility - should leave them suffering from more misfortune than their non-cursed brothers! Admittedly, the generic Cursed Founding rules always felt kinda weird, trying to apply a generic modifier to such a diverse group of chapters. Same thoughts about the abomination/cursed knights. For balance reasons I will leave Terminators as counting for 2 spaces as they will be in the "edge" of being very bulky. This is a heavy footslogger with the lack of a lot of other vehicles which even normal chapters have. They are Fleet based, so they only probably restock in some AdMech worlds.A good comparison here would be the Ogryn, which appear to standard a head taller than Terminators, but are still merely "Bulky". Should Scouts have +1T/Bulky? Not sure about that one myself; apart from anything else, trying to make the existing cout models bigger/bulkier would look incredibly weird. Venerable Dreadnoughts are merely more experienced Dreadnoughts, so their presence probably wouldn't be any more limited than regular Dreadnoughts. Dropping the Ironclad could be a nice concession; but rather than create a completely new version in its place, perhaps just allow the other Dread.s to freely exchange their Multi-melta for a DCCW, like the Chaos Dread. can. Then again, maybe just drop it completely. Weird for a chapter lacking resources to have special equipment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3163624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deiros Posted September 1, 2012 Author Share Posted September 1, 2012 I wasn't thinking of it as a special equipment but more of a more melee oriented dreadnought like a Furioso with out the psychic and the blood talons, just 2 DCCW adn storm bolters and give the chance to change one arm for a seismic hammer or some minor upgrades to the regular dreadnought. I suppose another approach would be to add some extra options to the Venerable and normal dreadnought, with the option of having 2 DCCW (with storm bolters) and maybe perhaps a seismic hammer option also or the talons like blood angels? They are a bit sturdier already with Extra armor (which is something at least). Scouts were a big question mark for me, as they could instead have the roll of "squires" serving the battle brothers like in other Chapters (Irons Snakes), making the only troop choice the Tactical Squad. About the "special guard" unit I still need a name for them (Tartarus Guard?) and say they get storm bolters with the terminator armor upgrade? Edit: Probably set the point cost at 60 for them, since they have a bit better stats then a Veteran (sternguard or vanguard). Shouldn't I just try to do them a bit similar to the Deathshroud (Death Guard elite bodyguards). Figures you can just true scale them and they are bigger than the regular marine figure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3163649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Replacing the Ironclad with a melee Dread that has a seismic hammer option feels kinda redundant, I guess? Probably best to leave the Talons to the Bangels, though. Plus, Dreadnoughts are supposed to be rare/mysterious tech, feels like a strange way to expand an undersupplied chapter. About the "special guard" unit I still need a name for them (Tartarus Guard?) and say they get storm bolters with the terminator armor upgrade? On the note of Razorbacks, since they'd only really be used by the "Deathshroud", maybe just note in the army list that only the "Deathshroud" may select them instead of noting all of those which can't. "Tartarus Guard" could work, would fit the greek theming. The problem with saying they get a Storm Bolter w/ the Termie armour is that we'd have to re-list options for the termies - but since the upgrade to Termie armour only works when they don't have "Close Combat Weapons and/or Pistols", they have to be upgraded to use Terminator-friendly upgrades before they can take Termie armour anyways. Saves space :P For the scouts, I guess it depends on when they're altered to be "giant". Does it take place during or after the other modifications etc. Yeah, Truescaling techniques would be a good way of modeling these guys. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3163978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deiros Posted September 1, 2012 Author Share Posted September 1, 2012 I think the scouts are already Bulky, since it's the Skeleton that is augmented and is probably one of the first things they would probably mess with. You are right about the Dreadnoughts, now that I think about it, and probably just give the dreadnoughts the chance of having 2 DCCW option. I will make the Razorback as a dedicated transport unique to the Tartarus Guard, instead of listing who can't since it's easier that way also (you are right...yet again). There is just some problems with the list is that they lack a bunch of choices compared to other SM Chapters. That doesn't mean I want to give them a bunch of options, but maybe give the current existing extra goodies of sort to compensate the lack of units. Units that are not used do to lack of material or resources t maintain and/or replace. Scout Bikes Land Speeder Land Speeder Storm Ironclad Dreadnought Thunderfire Cannon Storm Talon (To new to have it) This guys are VERY valuable to risk them for the chapter so they are not deployed with the army as they are the ones that patch, repair and make some of the Chapters gear. Master of the Forge Techmarine + Servitors. I was thinking I could maybe field "larger" units of Tactical marines with extra special weapons (5-20 or 5-15) with +1 heavy or special weapon. Tartarus Guard is great as a Chapter Master on termie armor choice and the Honor Guard for power armor one. Maybe give the Tartarus chance to accept challenges for the Chapter Master as a way to protect him? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3164043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Tartarus accepting challenges as champs is a pretty cool idea. Try making Techpriest Enginseers an option? They daren't risk their Techmarines, so they use mortal adepts wherever possible? I don't know why the Sons are gear-lite, so if it's troubles with the mechanicus, obviously ignore that advice! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3164526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 I think the scouts are already Bulky, since it's the Skeleton that is augmented and is probably one of the first things they would probably mess with.Right, the change probably happens when they do the skeleton fiddling early on.I was thinking I could maybe field "larger" units of Tactical marines with extra special weapons (5-20 or 5-15) with +1 heavy or special weapon.Dunno, that seems to be a perk reserved for more "legion-y" space marines (Chaos, Astral Claws, Space Wolves). Considering SoA are already pretty difficult to kill, being able to stick a mob of 20 down might be excessive, and would make it much harder to reach the special weapons.This guys are VERY valuable to risk them for the chapter so they are not deployed with the army as they are the ones that patch, repair and make some of the Chapters gear. Try making Techpriest Enginseers an option? They daren't risk their Techmarines, so they use mortal adepts wherever possible?Maybe tie representing Scouts along the lines of the Iron Snakes, human tech adepts and the desire for slightly larger Tactical Squads together, and allow them to include unaugmented human initiates in their Tactical squads, to weed out the weak and meatshield the Sons. Baseline guard/scout options with tech-adept upgrade? This kinda mixed squad is especially interesting to play with 6th's changes to Wound Allocation (do you put all the meatshields out front and risk the Sons being killed off by a flanking enemy, or circle them around the marines to protect all angles, making the meatshield easier to break through?). Less potential problems than just 20 marines, since the meatshields are much squishier. This would be a pretty heavy-handed alteration though, might still be too much.Tartarus Guard is great as a Chapter Master on termie armor choice and the Honor Guard for power armor one. Maybe give the Tartarus chance to accept challenges for the Chapter Master as a way to protect him? Tartarus accepting challenges as champs is a pretty cool idea.Yeah, making them Characters would work. Other space marine forces have veteran units which are entirely Characters (Wolfguard, Paladins), so wouldn't be unreasonable for these guys.I don't know why the Sons are gear-lite, so if it's troubles with the mechanicus, obviously ignore that advice!They're from the Cursed Founding, which spawned lots of mutated chapters, and was orchestrated by a Magos and Inquisitor who wanted to "improve" Space Marines. Fabius Bile may have been involved - in the end, they barely escaped being Grey Knight-ed to death. Not sure if the rest of the Mechanicus knows about it, though. The original rules heavily limited the tech they could access, but later updates of the less mutated Cursed Chapters (Lamenters/Minotaurs) removed those restrictions. Of course, the restrictions might still apply to the noticeably alted SoA, since Inq. suspicions compare their resilience to the Death Guard. Edit: Also, don't be too concerned about having less units/options overall, the space marine 'dex tries to cover a huge array of forces and tactics, sneaky raven guard, siege-focused Imp Fists, mechanized etc, while a Sons of Antaeus list is focused/built around a tough-as-nails footslogger-meatgrinder kinda thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3164661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deiros Posted September 2, 2012 Author Share Posted September 2, 2012 I think the guard unit is a bit to much to change things, but they could use scouts like the Black Templars do in a mixed unit, just not with the melee load out but with regular bolter squads and the special weapon choice they normally get (no snipers, cloaks or Sergeant). They would still get their other weapon options as normal scouts (including their heavy weapon option), while the Space Marines still have their sergeant and their normal load out options except for plasma guns, since they are a very hard technology (if not impossible to replicate) and only available for Vehicles, Sternguard, Sergeants, IC, Command Squad and Honor Guard. I also thought about removing the restriction of the bikes since they don't use Land Speeders of any kind, they can at least use bikes (balance sake than anything) and maybe let them have a Master of the Forge if they want a lots of dreadnought kind of approach? (this is just for balancing things a bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3164688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Looking at the old fluff, it seems they're a reasonably well respected chapter, if a little mysterious, with normal space marines and non-space marines calling 'em awesome, so maybe rather than restricting access to lots of units and adding a bunch of new quirks, just leave their access to the other units, maybe ditching only Landspeeders? (T6 bikes would be more tempting anyways.) If bikes are included, add a note that SoA Captains don't have "Mounted Assault" - an entirely mounted, T6 SoA army might be kinda excessive. Edit: Mildly concerned the in-game drawbacks may not be severe enough - they would in 5th, but since footsloggers are pretty decent now, a typical list might be too good? Might be worth adding another "slow" drawback (not Slow and Purposeful, though, since it improves weapon use, but some of Slow and Purposeful's negatives could be used). Adding that they cannot Run would make them easier to outmaneuver, also encourage firebase tactics and might discourage assault. Preventing them from using Overwatch would make them more vulnerable to other, higher Initiative assaulters, particularly glass-cannons units like Wyches and Genestealers. Probably best to avoid the "Cannot Sweeping Advance" drawback; that'd make Power Armoured SoA even closer to Terminators, undesirable. Although Fearless makes sense for them, dropping it might be good in that it'd give the opponent chance to slow parts of their advance if one or two units attempt to regroup for a turn, before ATSKNF kicks in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3164695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deiros Posted September 2, 2012 Author Share Posted September 2, 2012 Bodyguards: Tartarus Guard are always ready to accept any challenges in the Chapter Master stead, and all their training is bent to this goal. They always re-roll failed to hit and to wound against the challenger. Taratarus Guard cannot issue challenges. This rule sound ok for the Tartarus Guard? I was going to add a note of the Captains so they can't abuse the T6 bike formation. (Maybe bring back bike scout bikes, but I think they would still restrict them for normal marines). I guess I can keep the rules closer to normal then but instead just don't allow them to run do to their size? They are expecting to be assaulted it seems, by the small fluff there is they are a slow moving gunline of sustained firepower that expect to withstand anything you throw at them but they have no hurries to jump at the enemy. Vanguard ans Assault squads are used as a rapid response to neutralize threats to their tactical and devastator squads. Land Speeders and Storm Talon is more of a fluff (the only way the Giant Antaeus died was when he got crushed to death by Heracles when he lifted him into the air). but then I live them with virtually no "aerial" units and dependent on an aegis probably used by scouts or small 5 man tac squad. Another options is that I could restrict them to a 1 Storm Talon, 1 Ironclad and 1 Thunderfirecannon, take the Elite Techmarine choice out (which is replaced by the Tartarus Guard in the HQ choice) and simply make do without Landspeeders. Now I can probably make do without Scout Bikes and LSS, but I do feel I lack some other choice to substitute for the Land Speeder somehow, or add extra options to the already existing units. You are all more than welcome to pitch in your 2 cents and opinions to make this better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3164754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Not sure if limiting the Tartarus Guard's challenging ability is that necessary, just being straight-up Infantry (Character) wouldn't be overwhelming, and would be quicker to explain. Then again, Bodyguards isn't overcomplicated either. Personally, I'd just go for making them Characters, but that's more a matter of taste. Maybe have the Tartarus Guard replace Honour Guard; also, rather than just forbidding Techmarines and MotF, perhaps allow them to also take a unit of Tartarus Guard, just like a Captain or Chapter Master could. The player still gets to use the Techs/MotF, but the need to protect them is still represented. Maybe just leave the 'talon out entirely, but not restrict Ironclads/T-fires? Fluffwise, they may just be representing lower-tech substitues (a normal Dreadnought rigged up with T-hammer generators with bolted-on armour plating rather an Ironclad or something). Plus, since they have some support from Guild Traders/other chapters, they could probably maintain this stuff pretty well; perhaps after saving the Subjugators from Eldar Corsairs, they requested replacement technobits for repairs, that sort've thing. Oooo, like the idea of limiting flying units due to Antaeus' weakness. So yeah, ditch speeders (doubt they could fly with two Sons in one anyways). Maybe add something limiting to Jump-pack Sons to carry on the theme, though? Perhaps they always count as ending their Jump move in Dangerous Terrain, representing their greatly increased weight; their bodies/armour can't always handle the trauma of landing. Fluffwise, they wouldn't die when failing the Dangerous Terrain test, they'd just blow out the motors in their power armour and/or break their legs when they land. (Since Armour Saves can be taken against Dangerous Terrain tests, each model would only have a ~5% chance of being removed.) Not sure what could be moved in as a "new" unit into the gap left by the Speeders, but keeping in mind the buff Bikes got, it's doubtful they'll be missed due to the T6 Attack Bikes :P Still, if I think of something, will post. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3164910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deiros Posted September 2, 2012 Author Share Posted September 2, 2012 I was thinking of making it like: Chapter Master - Tartarus Guard - Honor Guard Captain - Honor Guard- Command Squad Other HQ - Command squad I suppose I can just let them have Ironclads (in appearance they are dreadnoughts with extra armor patching and seismic hammers). Thunderfire cannon will leave it as a unit option. The only change I would give to their jump packs is during the Movement Phase: When using their jump packs in the Movement phase, it can move up to 9" (instead of 12"). Its just a subtle change that makes them slow enough to act as a response unit instead of a fast attack pincer moving unit. I guess the special without being a new unit are going to be the bikers at T6 it's just a brutal meat shield or very hard to bring down unit. Actually now I'm only missing: Land Speeder Land Speeder Storm Storm Talon I got as a new thing: Tartarus Guard. (which can substitute for the Storm Talon). Storm talons and LSS (scouts get none since normal marines don't) are out for fluff reasons. Extra tweaks: Jump Packs only do 9" instead of 12" in the movement phase. Captains can't take the bike benefit (to much power) The HQ command, honor guard tartarus guard tweak to protect the other HQ's. Now it's just a matter of tidying it up and actually making the unit as such (in a proper presentable way). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3164930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Not sure about changing 12" to 9", 40k is very married to the set tiers of move-distance. While functional, it seems very out of place. Sure about leaving Honour Guard in alongside Tartarus Guard? Kinda redundant gamewise and fluffwise, and it leads to some weird quirks ("Tartarus Guard are 2 wound, but the Honour Guard Chapter Champion isn't?" etc). Most chapters seem to maintain the Honour Guard similarly to a very small company with the Guards assigned where they're needed; I'd assume the Tartarus Guard work similarly, except they're only deployed in pairs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3164988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deiros Posted September 2, 2012 Author Share Posted September 2, 2012 Ok the so the Tartarus Guard should substitute the Honor Guard as a unit in a Sons of Antaeus FOC. Well then I have no idea how to make something with the Jump Packs, except that they have to tweak them themselves like their power armor to be a bit bigger to fit them? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3165014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 The other two ideas I was thinking of for Jump-pack weaknesses, apart from the Dangerous Terrain thing, would be changing them to Jetpacks (slower in Movement Phase, but can move an additional 2d6 in Assault Phase even if not charging), or that some defect in the geneseed (problem in the ear modifications?) leads to them being unsteady/uncomfortable when jumping/flying, resulting in them losing Fearless/ATSKNF when equipped with a Jump Pack. Not that there needs to be a Jump Pack weakness, but seems like that'd be fun alongside the Antaeus background. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3165046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deiros Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 I did consider the treat the as Jet Packs instead since assault squads don't carry heavy weapons it doesn't matter much for the purpose of shooting them. The other reasoning is they have no Fearless when charging (using their Jump packs), do to fluff. They can run as normal so it remains balanced, but maybe give them a bonus do to their increased size (longer stride). I wish they could give relentless to their devastators lol, but that is pushing it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3165084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deiros Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 I added an Artificer Armor option (I can remove it if necessary) but I think this looks fine as the finished unit: Force Organizational Chart and Unit changes: Tartarus Guard substitutes Honor Guard. Master of the Forge may also take Command squads. Captains do not benefit from the Mounted Assault rule. Land Rider has the Assault Vehicle special rule. Assault Squads and Vanguard Veterans are not Fearless when charging using their Jump Packs. Tartarus Guard Tartarus Guard544523293+ Tartarus Guard {HQ}..........80pts Infantry (Character) 2 Tartarus Guard Power Armor Bolt Pistol Close Combat Weapon Frag & Krak Grenades Fearless Bulky Razorback Drop Pod Land Rider Any Tartarus Guard may replace his Close Combat Weapon and/or Bolt Pistol with a:Storm Bolter +3pts Combi Weapon +5pts Artificer Armor +10pts Power Weapon, Lightning Claw or Plasma Pistol +15pts Thunder Hammer or Storm Shield +25pts [*]Any Tartarus Guard can replace their Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades with Terminator Armor +25pts Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/259909-codex-sons-of-antaeus-my-new-allies/#findComment-3166277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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