Stormtalon - opinions?

[old git]

I haven't gamed with any fliers yet and was thinking of adding a couple of 'talons to my Red Scorpions. I know a lot depends on the list they're supporting but overall, how good are they?

[Race Bannon]

From my experience, awesome. :)

 

Proxy one or two and give it a try. If it works for you then you'll enjoy the investment.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I have one, and it makes short work of most of my enemies. Eldar, Marines, Orks, Crons, Guard and Nids, none of these are really a match.

 

I run it with a Typhoon Missile Launcher, which makes it really effective.

 

The ability to strike against other fliers with these missiles and the assault cannon is great, zoom behind the enemy flier, go into the anti-flier mode for the turn, and open fire. Overall, I would say that it is very effective. Im debating investing in a second Talon, because it is so good, but so far have no real need to take a second.

 

Its weakness is the armour and HP. With AV 11, its pretty easy to knock out if hit, and 2 HP does not offer protection. But at 155 points (with TML) it is a fairly cheap investment for something that can crush Mech, Heavy Infantry and Horde with ease.

[SyNidus]

I run 2 Stormtalons with TL-Lascannons, and they have been nothing short of amazing. In my first game, they single-handedly wiped out every Dark Eldar skimmer on the board and also took down a Voidraven Bomber.

 

In my second game (against CSM), they took down a Landraider in the first turn, wiped out a squad of daemonettes and wreaked general havoc. Although i lost one to a Daemon Prince with Vector strike (wasn't a pretty way to go).

 

All in all, i'm very glad i made the investment.

[nestor73]

Not got Stormtalons yet but do have 2 Valks and a Vendetta for my drop troop army and they were pretty awesome even taking into account their BS. Fire weapons even though you've moved over 18", yes please :tu: I'm all for fliers now and 2 Talons are on the birthday list for my Raven Guard. I reckon we'll se more Imperial Navy fliers appearing soon, too.

[Tamwulf]

Until more AAA (Triple A, Ack Ack, Anti Aircraft Armament) is added into the game, flyers rule.

 

The only way to take out a flyer reliably and effectively is with another flyer.

 

The Storm Talon, in a word is perfect right now in 40K. The only way to really challenge it is if your opponent is Dark Eldar with flyers, Necrons with flyers, or PA with Storm Talons/Blood Ravens. Or... they have a fortification with a Quadcannon or Icarius Lascannon. If I have flyers and I see that on the table, my #1 priority is to take out that AAA emplacement. Air Superiority translates into battlefield dominance and forms a cornerstone of battlefield strategy. Rule the air, and you will rule the ground. It amazes me that the designers of 40K actually got this modern day tenant of war correct. Personally, I believe it was just coincidence.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Until more AAA (Triple A, Ack Ack, Anti Aircraft Armament) is added into the game, flyers rule.

 

The only way to take out a flyer reliably and effectively is with another flyer.

 

The Storm Talon, in a word is perfect right now in 40K. The only way to really challenge it is if your opponent is Dark Eldar with flyers, Necrons with flyers, or PA with Storm Talons/Blood Ravens. Or... they have a fortification with a Quadcannon or Icarius Lascannon. If I have flyers and I see that on the table, my #1 priority is to take out that AAA emplacement. Air Superiority translates into battlefield dominance and forms a cornerstone of battlefield strategy. Rule the air, and you will rule the ground. It amazes me that the designers of 40K actually got this modern day tenant of war correct. Personally, I believe it was just coincidence.

 

Yea, flyers really are useful. Though, two Aegis Lines hurts....

 

So do Devs with BS 5 on a Krak Missile!

 

There is another way to knock out flyers: tons of shots. Fighting Guard with Autocannon Russ's...those are a pain to knock out and they often can knock you out the sky. Flyers are really, really, really good and useful, however, you need to be aware of the threats and work out a strategy to defeating them. If you cannot figure out how to win with a flyer and avoid/destroy the AA then you may as well have not brought the flyer.

 

As for TL Lascannon...I toyed with the idea, but I went Typhoon for the versatility that it affords. Frag/Krak options each shot are a real bonus. I can reliably wipe out a squad from a horde army a turn with Frag and Ass Cannon together. Then you fly behind a tank, and the rending rules plus S 8 Missile rip them apart.

[Tamwulf]

Until more AAA (Triple A, Ack Ack, Anti Aircraft Armament) is added into the game, flyers rule.

 

The only way to take out a flyer reliably and effectively is with another flyer.

 

The Storm Talon, in a word is perfect right now in 40K. The only way to really challenge it is if your opponent is Dark Eldar with flyers, Necrons with flyers, or PA with Storm Talons/Blood Ravens. Or... they have a fortification with a Quadcannon or Icarius Lascannon. If I have flyers and I see that on the table, my #1 priority is to take out that AAA emplacement. Air Superiority translates into battlefield dominance and forms a cornerstone of battlefield strategy. Rule the air, and you will rule the ground. It amazes me that the designers of 40K actually got this modern day tenant of war correct. Personally, I believe it was just coincidence.

 

Yea, flyers really are useful. Though, two Aegis Lines hurts....

 

So do Devs with BS 5 on a Krak Missile!

 

There is another way to knock out flyers: tons of shots. Fighting Guard with Autocannon Russ's...those are a pain to knock out and they often can knock you out the sky. Flyers are really, really, really good and useful, however, you need to be aware of the threats and work out a strategy to defeating them. If you cannot figure out how to win with a flyer and avoid/destroy the AA then you may as well have not brought the flyer.

 

As for TL Lascannon...I toyed with the idea, but I went Typhoon for the versatility that it affords. Frag/Krak options each shot are a real bonus. I can reliably wipe out a squad from a horde army a turn with Frag and Ass Cannon together. Then you fly behind a tank, and the rending rules plus S 8 Missile rip them apart.

 

How are you getting two Aegis Defense lines? Even if you are playing 2000+ point games with ally rules, you can only ever take one Fortification.

 

Devs with BS 5 and Krak Missiles mean nothing- they still only hit a zooming flyer on a 6 or better- and what flyer is not going to zoom? The amount of shots that an Autocannon Russ has to shoot to hit and then glance/penetrate say, a Storm Talon is a lot. 6's to hit, 4 to glance, and then I can Jink if I need to. You'd have better luck with the Punisher Cannon. I fear Tesla guns from the Necrons way, way more. If the Guard player is using a 150-200 point tank to shoot at my flyer... all the power to them! That means they ain't firing at the rest of my army. I do agree that you still have to have a plan, and that just because you are fielding a flyer isn't an automatic win. :) I further agree with the Assault Cannon and Typhoon. Great combo!

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Actually, the Signum overrides Snapshots :/

 

But yea, I forgot about only one fortification :P However, ive been playtesting coming in and shooting it first turn, trying to knock out the gun. The biggest threat to flyers is other flyers.

 

Spam shots do hurt....a lot... Rifleman Dreads and Autocannon Russ have proved a threat. I usually can kill the AA guns easily, but sometimes I fail, and thats when it hurts...hence why I am considering taking 2. Now, running a ST as an escort for scouts...that can be deadly. Outflanking flyer? Yes please :)

 

If I took a second Talon, I probably would run HB sponsons for ground attack, based on my usual enemies, the high number of shots is nice to have. I seem to have really bad luck with Lascannons, so, unless I had two, I would not wish to risk it.

[Lord Scytha]

Don't forget Hydra batteries. 2 TL Auto-cannons with Skyfire. Auto-targeting so no save from Jinx. For just over 200pts and change an IG player can get a Squadron of three and still have two Heavy slots open on the FoC.

 

I can pretty much guarantee that IG players will only have friendly skies overhead after turn 3.

 

Everyone is talking about Aegis lines but I'm kind of amazed players ain't taking IG as allies as for about 350 pts of an allied detachment any Imperial player can get access to the most superior AAA in the game atm.

[Haranin]

Which is useless against ground targets.

[Lysere]

Actually, the Signum overrides Snapshots :/

 

But yea, I forgot about only one fortification :P However, ive been playtesting coming in and shooting it first turn, trying to knock out the gun. The biggest threat to flyers is other flyers.

 

Spam shots do hurt....a lot... Rifleman Dreads and Autocannon Russ have proved a threat. I usually can kill the AA guns easily, but sometimes I fail, and thats when it hurts...hence why I am considering taking 2. Now, running a ST as an escort for scouts...that can be deadly. Outflanking flyer? Yes please :)

 

If I took a second Talon, I probably would run HB sponsons for ground attack, based on my usual enemies, the high number of shots is nice to have. I seem to have really bad luck with Lascannons, so, unless I had two, I would not wish to risk it.

 

Double Force orgs grants you a second fortifacatio.

[Lord Scytha]

Which is useless against ground targets.

 

Which is the reason it is the most superior AAA, not all-round gun atm.

[darnarth lysander]

as much as i want to get a storm talon I wil have to wait until the new DA flyer comes out ( just started up an army of DA )

because if it is better than the stormtalon, I will kill mself.

[jeremy1391]

Actually, the Signum overrides Snapshots :/

 

But yea, I forgot about only one fortification B) However, ive been playtesting coming in and shooting it first turn, trying to knock out the gun. The biggest threat to flyers is other flyers.

 

Where does this bit of information come from?

[Dusktiger]

im wondering that too, jeremy. signums modify your BS. but shooting at flyers without the use of the skyfire rule means you always hit on a 6. its just like using quickening on a librarian for that initiative 10, only to have him strike at initiative 1 anyways because he's got a force axe.

 

i think people are grasping straws here; unless you are an anti-air weapon (shown by having skyfire USR), you will suck at hitting an aircraft. period. this is reflected by being told you 'will' treat your weapons as BS 1 when you do not have this rule. its to reflect you're a dude on the ground, with a gun, shooting into the skies at a far away, really fast, target. BS modifiers will not change this.

 

people using the signum argument are basically going for this:

"i'm awesome at shooting a guy in the face with my gun. and i make my dudes shoot face better when i point stuff out to them. therefore, when something flies by so fast that it would pop the eardrums of a guardsmen, i'm so 1337 that i can shoot his engines."

 

that's not how it goes, and if you use common sense here instead of trying to find ways to bend the rules so you can cheat, you'll see that's not how it works.

 

now, if you have that dev sgt with signum man an icarus lascannon or guad-gun, which 'has' Skyfire USR, then yes, his badass self can hit the flyer at BS 5. because now he's using a gun 'meant' for flyers.

 

he does not make infantry-held guns into Anti-Air weapons.

[EPK]

I learned the hard way on my first game of 6th that taking out that gun emplacement is #1 priority (as stated). Opponents quad-gun took it out on my turn when it entered. I'm weary of using a talon again, but reading the comments here in the thread, maybe I'll give it another shot. Makes more sense for bringing C:SM allies with my DW anyway.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Actually, the Signum overrides Snapshots :/

 

But yea, I forgot about only one fortification :D However, ive been playtesting coming in and shooting it first turn, trying to knock out the gun. The biggest threat to flyers is other flyers.

 

Where does this bit of information come from?

 

I assume you mean the bit about Signum/Snapshots?

 

It's been discussed in the +OR+ but basically you choose how the modifiers are applied, as the player affected.

 

So, you apply the negative mod of Snap Fire and then apply the Signum modifier to get your desired result.

[Bannus]

It's been discussed in the +OR+ but basically you choose how the modifiers are applied, as the player affected.

 

So, you apply the negative mod of Snap Fire and then apply the Signum modifier to get your desired result.

To clarify, the order is applied according to the order of the owning player turn - so you would apply it this way in your turn, but during overwatch in your opponent's turn, he may choose to apply the order a bit differently. :D

[Captain Juan Juarez]

It's been discussed in the +OR+ but basically you choose how the modifiers are applied, as the player affected.

 

So, you apply the negative mod of Snap Fire and then apply the Signum modifier to get your desired result.

To clarify, the order is applied according to the order of the owning player turn - so you would apply it this way in your turn, but during overwatch in your opponent's turn, he may choose to apply the order a bit differently. :D

 

What he said too.

[Grey Mage]

Well you cant even use a Signum during snapfire- because the rule says "for this shooting phase".

[Azash]

Personally I am not a huge fan of the Storm talon it was designed overpriced with two few hull points. The only reason people are having really positive experiences with it IMO (especially if you look at the Battle Reports) is because of the serious lack of AA on the game. This is still 6th and you can still glance stuff into oblivion and our flyer has a whopping 2 hull points on an armor 11 vehicle. So it's kinda like a Rhino except exponentially more fragile when being shot at by AA.

 

When more AA comes into the game I will call it now the 135+ pt storm talon will seem a over priced with it's limited weapon options, 2 hull points, lack of a true hover mode. Personally without some serious FAQing GW released this thing with a very finite shelf life as far as competitive lists go. Then when you compare that 135 pts to the 100 pt cost of an Aegis line with a TL quad gun (which statistically can pretty much take out a Storm Talon every time in one round) it seems even less attractive.

 

 

The way I read snap shot the signum can not over ride a snap shots BS 6. It's the actual rule on page 13 that makes it so it cant be altered for any reason "...then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots."

 

I underlined the key words in the rule. If you actually read snap shot it's actually not a negative modifier in anyway to the BS of the firing model. The actual stat never changes but as soon as the model snap shots it fires as BS 1. So any rule that modifies a BS can't actually modify that BS of 1 since the model is never actually BS 1. The second nail in the coffin of the signum argument is the lack of the words Modify or Change or Reduce in the rules regarding Snap Shot. If Snap shot was an actual modifier and the rules on page 9 would have precidence but since it's only counted as this is how it would work.

 

Firing Model is BS 4

Signum Modifies the BS to 5

Player declares the snap fire the Model has a BS of 5 but that 5 is counted as being a 1 as soon as he snap fires.

 

The last nail in the coffin of the signum was when the BB in this area emailed this exact question back to the GW mother ship and the GW mother ship gave the above answer.

[Dusktiger]

@azash

 

Thank you! Nice to see someone else is able to read and understand the rule with common sense as well.

[Dusktiger]

edit: and someone deleted the reply i was answering to. please ignore.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Firing Model is BS 4

Signum Modifies the BS to 5

Player declares the snap fire the Model has a BS of 5 but that 5 is counted as being a 1 as soon as he snap fires.

 

The last nail in the coffin of the signum was when the BB in this area emailed this exact question back to the GW mother ship and the GW mother ship gave the above answer.

 

 

Except that the rules state that the active player determines the order in which conflicting rules are applied. Ergo, I say:

 

Firing Model is BS 4

Snap Firing makes model BS 1

Signum makes model BS 5

 

And now I'm hitting a Flyer on a 2+. I mean, honestly. The signum is a TARGETING AID. Its entire purpose in life is to allow a shooter to be more accurate when firing at differing targets, so it even works on a fluff level. Why is there still an argument here?