Lorenzen Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 gonna use another rule as an example of why you are wrong & how gw do things. marine with fist in 5th ed with furious charge.. marine beame str 9 init 1 not str 10 init 2.. you cant choose the order of when things apply to your models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Scytha Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 im wondering that too, jeremy. signums modify your BS. but shooting at flyers without the use of the skyfire rule means you always hit on a 6. its just like using quickening on a librarian for that initiative 10, only to have him strike at initiative 1 anyways because he's got a force axe. i think people are grasping straws here; unless you are an anti-air weapon (shown by having skyfire USR), you will suck at hitting an aircraft. period. this is reflected by being told you 'will' treat your weapons as BS 1 when you do not have this rule. its to reflect you're a dude on the ground, with a gun, shooting into the skies at a far away, really fast, target. BS modifiers will not change this. people using the signum argument are basically going for this: "i'm awesome at shooting a guy in the face with my gun. and i make my dudes shoot face better when i point stuff out to them. therefore, when something flies by so fast that it would pop the eardrums of a guardsmen, i'm so 1337 that i can shoot his engines." that's not how it goes, and if you use common sense here instead of trying to find ways to bend the rules so you can cheat, you'll see that's not how it works. now, if you have that dev sgt with signum man an icarus lascannon or guad-gun, which 'has' Skyfire USR, then yes, his badass self can hit the flyer at BS 5. because now he's using a gun 'meant' for flyers. he does not make infantry-held guns into Anti-Air weapons. While I won't get in to the signum argument I'll say this. As long as you got enough people that sucks they will eventually accomplish something. Having BS1 doesn't matter when the rules says that a natural 6 always hit. A dread with a TL AC get four chances to roll a six. Again IG has it even better. A Heavy Weapons Squad with 3 ACs that gets their Twin link order gets 12 chances to roll a six. And with the Stormtalon's AV11 and 2 measly hull points it doesn't take all that many hits to blow it out of the sky. You think 15 Lootas care about being BS1. So while SMs gets the raw end of the deal since except for a rifle dread we doesn't get all that much that allow us to spam str 7 shots there are plenty of armies out there that doesn't really need skyfire weapons to blow flyers out of the sky. (Then we have the freaking Guard who not only get 2 fliers themselves but also get one AAA tank and a unit with 3 possible TL ACs, all to a price that's equal or lower than a defense line with a quad. Ofc if they want to splurge they can also get an AV13 tank with a TL AC. Not that I'm bitter or jealous or anything. :) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 gonna use another rule as an example of why you are wrong & how gw do things. marine with fist in 5th ed with furious charge.. marine beame str 9 init 1 not str 10 init 2.. you cant choose the order of when things apply to your models. Except that you DO get to choose the order -- that is in the rulebook. Don't have page number handy since I'm at work, but I want to say it's in the single digits. Plus, your example doesn't refute anything. It was in the old master FAQ that S bonuses were applied after multiplication. As for the Init issue, that was because one is a state value and one was a modifier. +1I doesn't matter when the fist's old rule stated that struck at I1. I1+1 still equals 1, because that's how the rule read. In this case, you have two rules that give stated values -- BS1, and BS5. Different situation. And I just want to let you know before we get into this any further, that I used to be on your guys' side of the aisle. But then the rules were pointed out to me, and it's an order of operation issue -- and the active player gets to choose the order in which conflicting rules are implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 That being said, let's move back on topic or we'll have to kick this thread over to the OR subforum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusktiger Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 not to go off topic after your warning bannus, but they released a FAQ today that ends the signum arguement once and for all: Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)A: No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 not to go off topic after your warning bannus, but they released a FAQ today that ends the signum arguement once and for all:Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)A: No I saw that, and I'm glad they did it. Argument settled, moving on. Back on topic, I like my Storm Talon, but the recent FAQ also threw a wrench in the works in how I use it. You see, I employ mine for air superiority. But the FAQ states that a Flyer in Hover mode loses the ability to Skyfire since its unit type becomes Skimmer (thus, also applying to the wording of Hover Strike). This makes building that second one I bought a priority so that I get double the anti-air coverage out of my air support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamwulf Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Back on topic, I like my Storm Talon, but the recent FAQ also threw a wrench in the works in how I use it. You see, I employ mine for air superiority. But the FAQ states that a Flyer in Hover mode loses the ability to Skyfire since its unit type becomes Skimmer (thus, also applying to the wording of Hover Strike). This makes building that second one I bought a priority so that I get double the anti-air coverage out of my air support. The Storm Talon does not have the Hover special rule. Look in the vehicle reference section. It lists the ST as a Flyer. You have to use the WD rules for the Hover Strike ability. The Hover Strike special ability is way different from Hover. Unless the new FAQ gave the ST Hover? I havent't checked... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Back on topic, I like my Storm Talon, but the recent FAQ also threw a wrench in the works in how I use it. You see, I employ mine for air superiority. But the FAQ states that a Flyer in Hover mode loses the ability to Skyfire since its unit type becomes Skimmer (thus, also applying to the wording of Hover Strike). This makes building that second one I bought a priority so that I get double the anti-air coverage out of my air support. The Storm Talon does not have the Hover special rule. Look in the vehicle reference section. It lists the ST as a Flyer. You have to use the WD rules for the Hover Strike ability. The Hover Strike special ability is way different from Hover. Unless the new FAQ gave the ST Hover? I havent't checked... Yes, I am aware. In fact, if you actually read my post, you'll see that I quite specificially -- even bolded it -- mentioned the Hover Strike rule. The reason why I brought it up is that the FAQ states that when a Flyer goes into Hover mode, it's unit type becomes Fast Skimmer (thus no Skyfire). The Hover Strike rule's exact wording also states the the Talon's unit type becomes Skimmer. . . ergo, when Hover Striking, it also loses Skyfire. Was that clearer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Scytha Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Back on topic, I like my Storm Talon, but the recent FAQ also threw a wrench in the works in how I use it. You see, I employ mine for air superiority. But the FAQ states that a Flyer in Hover mode loses the ability to Skyfire since its unit type becomes Skimmer (thus, also applying to the wording of Hover Strike). This makes building that second one I bought a priority so that I get double the anti-air coverage out of my air support. The Storm Talon does not have the Hover special rule. Look in the vehicle reference section. It lists the ST as a Flyer. You have to use the WD rules for the Hover Strike ability. The Hover Strike special ability is way different from Hover. Unless the new FAQ gave the ST Hover? I havent't checked... Yes, I am aware. In fact, if you actually read my post, you'll see that I quite specificially -- even bolded it -- mentioned the Hover Strike rule. The reason why I brought it up is that the FAQ states that when a Flyer goes into Hover mode, it's unit type becomes Fast Skimmer (thus no Skyfire). The Hover Strike rule's exact wording also states the the Talon's unit type becomes Skimmer. . . ergo, when Hover Striking, it also loses Skyfire. Was that clearer? I don't have the flyers number of WD with me but are you sure Hover Strike says the Talon becomes a skimmer and not just counts as a skimmer for shooting purposes (that is other units shooting at it, not it shooting)? Because that's a rather big difference. In the former it turns in to a skimmer type model and loses skyfire for one turn. In the latter it have a super effective special rule attack that leaves it vulnerable. From how they described the Talon in the WD issue I got the impression the devs were going for the second alternative. But I can be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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