Why oh why can't I decide!

[ironbear]

Starting a new chaos force

 

I just can't decide Night lords or world bearers?

 

Are there any major differences?

[The Colossus]

Did you mean "Word Bearers" or "World Eaters"?

 

Night Lords are all about fear etc. Word Bearers are very religious, think warped, mutated, utterly evil warrior monks. World Eaters are crazy Khornate chainaxe wielding, close combat maniacs.

 

That's just a basic overview.

[ironbear]

I'm thinks the ones with the dark apostles

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I'm thinks the ones with the dark apostles

 

Word Bearers, Sons of Lorgar, will be the ones you mean.

[greatcrusade08]

word bearers model wise are chaos undivided so for the most part are unmarked, they use daemonic engines and treasure daemon posession..

so posessed, defilers, hellbrutes and whatnot are order of the day, which is great cuz i love the daemon engines.

 

its also a great excuse to get a deamon prince or a lord (dark apostle) with daemon weapon.

 

they also use large numbers of cultists, which going by the new boxed set would be radily available once the new dex comes out.

 

word bearers are very cool, i love em.

 

what i find wierd is this notion that only khornate armies can have berserkers, its not true, unlike plague marines bersekers arent blessed by khorne.. they are lobotomised by surgeons, so any warband word bearers included could have them.

just something to think about

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I've always consider Bezerkers are being favoured by Khorne, rather than blessed.

[Kol Saresk]

All a berserker is is someone who's so pissed off that they can't feel anything besides anger. That could easily translate into a squad of Word Bearers whose zeal is so overwhelming that they care not for pain or fear as long as they bring retribution to those who would deny the Chaos Gods.

 

Night Lords, well Uzas is really the only Night Lord example I can think of right now and he was blessed by Khorne, but he was not lobotomized. At least not physically. So the question comes down to, do you what fluffy "berserkers" whose thirst for destruction and combat overwrites all other concerns including their own lives or do you want the World Eaters lobotomized warriors who no longer possess the brain matter to feel fear and self-preservation? Either way can translate into whatever fluff you want so long as you can make it.

[Sception]

Actually, a berserker is more than just an angry, khorne-marked chaos marine veteran. They've also undergone extensive brain surgery - severing some connections entirely, and wiring others into an elaborate cybernetic implant that allows them to enter a psychotic rage state during combat, dramatically increasing their strength and speed by removing natural biological and psychological limiters evolved to prevent self-injury.

 

These implants are hard to come by. I don't believe there's supposed to be many outside of the World Eaters with access to them, or to the skills needed to attach them. Though the World Eaters legion itself was shattered at least once, and as such some with the needed expertise might be found as mercenaries among other Legions or warbands made in part of former World Eaters.

 

 

As for Night lords vs. Word Bearers - I think the red or maroon color scheme of the word bearers is probably easier to paint than the black or navy + lightning bolts Night Lords scheme, and will likely make more of a visual impact on the table. Fluff-wise, the word Bearers are more rigid and orthodox, having maintained more of a coherent organization and leadership structure, so if you want something with more of a unified purpose go with them. The Night Lords have broken up considerably since the death of their primarch - some remaining aloof from the forces of Chaos while others have degenerated into full blown daemon worship or broken off to form splinter groups, so if you want something more personal, where your individual lord or prince is the master of his own destiny rather than a cog in a greater machine, then Night Lords might suit you better.

 

Fluff-wise, both are generally undivided, though word bearers' chaos worship and the existence of more degenerate night lords factions makes marks and cult units less overtly unfluffy than they'd be in, say, an Iron Warriors army. Night Lords prefer fast assaults and terror-raids heavy on raptors and bikes, while Word Bearers favor possessed, cultists, and allied daemons. Neither has individual rules, units, or special characters associated with them at the moment forcing these units or prohibiting you from playing against type.

 

Rumors are rumors, not facts, and the same sources as some of this stuff also told us without a doubt that we'd have the new chaos book in our hands last august, so grain of salt time. That said, while there aren't rumored to be new legion rules or new special characters for NL and WB, there are some rumored new units available to Chaos Marines in general that fit with these forces in particular. There is rumored to be a more elite jump pack unit in fast attack, armed with multiple lightning claws? or lightning claws all around? or just having the shred rule? anyway, something to make them more fearsome in melee, but also more expensive, and while they won't be explicitly limited to night lords armies (since again, no specific legion rules), they are supposed to be associated with the Night Lords in their fluff. On the other hand, there's also supposed to be a new 'Dark Apostle' HQ unit, offering buffs to cultist units and some sort of benefit to allied daemons. Again, it wouldn't be explicitly limited to Word Bearers, and other legions are known to employ similar cult leaders, but the fluff would associate it with the word Bearers legion.

 

So, which image makes you more excited, hordes of chaos-worshiping cultists and grotesque summoned daemons all bound to the will of heretical chaos marine prophets, or elite chaos assault marines, their armor twisted in the likeness of baroque gargoyles, driving their prey to madness with their unnatural screams before crashing down from the skies to rend the flesh of loyalists with glowing talons and feast on their blood and terror? Again, rumors are to be taken with a grain of salt, so don't base your legion choice entirely around them, but its worth keeping in mind.

 

 

For the record, if you really, REALLY don't have a preference, an emphasis on cultists - providing cheap scoring units - and allied daemons - providing further scoring units and some fair specialist options - is probably more game-play effective than emphasizing non-scoring, elite jump units out of fast attack, so there's that.

[Odsox]

These implants are hard to come by. I don't believe there's supposed to be many outside of the World Eaters with access to them, or to the skills needed to attach them.

 

Correct. Urien Rakarth or any Dark Eldar haemonculus would be more than capable of performing such an operation. As would Fabius Bile. Not that either of those parties would stoop so low as to perform mere brain-altering surgery when they can work with the very essence of the soul...

 

Oh, according to Butcher's Nails, the Techmarines perform the surgery! Fun!

 

Od.

[Iron Sage]

Actually, a berserker is more than just an angry, khorne-marked chaos marine veteran. They've also undergone extensive brain surgery - severing some connections entirely, and wiring others into an elaborate cybernetic implant that allows them to enter a psychotic rage state during combat, dramatically increasing their strength and speed by removing natural biological and psychological limiters evolved to prevent self-injury.

 

These implants are hard to come by. I don't believe there's supposed to be many outside of the World Eaters with access to them, or to the skills needed to attach them. Though the World Eaters legion itself was shattered at least once, and as such some with the needed expertise might be found as mercenaries among other Legions or warbands made in part of former World Eaters.

 

 

As for Night lords vs. Word Bearers - I think the red or maroon color scheme of the word bearers is probably easier to paint than the black or navy + lightning bolts Night Lords scheme, and will likely make more of a visual impact on the table. Fluff-wise, the word Bearers are more rigid and orthodox, having maintained more of a coherent organization and leadership structure, so if you want something with more of a unified purpose go with them. The Night Lords have broken up considerably since the death of their primarch - some remaining aloof from the forces of Chaos while others have degenerated into full blown daemon worship or broken off to form splinter groups, so if you want something more personal, where your individual lord or prince is the master of his own destiny rather than a cog in a greater machine, then Night Lords might suit you better.

 

Fluff-wise, both are generally undivided, though word bearers' chaos worship and the existence of more degenerate night lords factions makes marks and cult units less overtly unfluffy than they'd be in, say, an Iron Warriors army. Raptors prefer fast assaults and terror-raids heavy on raptors and bikes, while Word Bearers favor possessed, cultists, and allied daemons. Neither has individual rules, units, or special characters associated with them at the moment forcing these units or prohibiting you from playing against type.

 

Rumors are rumors, not facts, and the same sources as some of this stuff also told us without a doubt that we'd have the new chaos book in our hands last august, so grain of salt time. That said, while there aren't rumored to be new legion rules or new special characters for NL and WB, there are some rumored new units available to Chaos Marines in general that fit with these forces in particular. There is rumored to be a more elite jump pack unit in fast attack, armed with multiple lightning claws? or lightning claws all around? or just having the shred rule? anyway, something to make them more fearsome in melee, but also more expensive, and while they won't be explicitly limited to night lords armies (since again, no specific legion rules), they are supposed to be associated with the Night Lords in their fluff. On the other hand, there's also supposed to be a new 'Dark Apostle' HQ unit, offering buffs to cultist units and some sort of benefit to allied daemons. Again, it wouldn't be explicitly limited to Word Bearers, and other legions are known to employ similar cult leaders, but the fluff would associate it with the word Bearers legion.

 

So, which image makes you more excited, hordes of chaos-worshiping cultists and grotesque summoned daemons all bound to the will of heretical chaos marine prophets, or elite chaos assault marines, their armor twisted in the likeness of baroque gargoyles, driving their prey to madness with their unnatural screams before crashing down from the skies to rend the flesh of loyalists with glowing talons and feast on their blood and terror? Again, rumors are to be taken with a grain of salt, so don't base your legion choice entirely around them, but its worth keeping in mind.

 

 

For the record, if you really, REALLY don't have a preference, an emphasis on cultists - providing cheap scoring units - and allied daemons - providing further scoring units and some fair specialist options - is probably more game-play effective than emphasizing non-scoring, elite jump units out of fast attack, so there's that.

 

Such a high quality post this.

 

I`d add that I myself use models with chainswords and boltpistols in "running pose" (some noob conversion work) painted as "ordinary" Iron Warriors, and I dont see the problem with this path. Playing a Legion with codexes without legion rules limits us much more than other armies, so I think its safe to say that if you model your marines to represent plague marines (make them look especially "tough"), then its just as fluffy as anything. I very much like what some Thousand sons players do (modeling obliterators as termi sorcerers), .

 

In the more recent codex, as well as the comming one, I think legions is all about aestetichs and not rules (due to having non-legion rules for one), and you have to find the one legion or warband which you think has the most "cool" fluff and visial aestetichs. IMO one of the positive sides of this game is that one is limited only to ones immaginiation and conversions :lol:

[Phoros]

Addenum to Malisteen's post - Of course, thanks to the nature of Chaos and the Eye of Terror, you don't HAVE to go with Fast Attack for Night Lords/Cultists and Daemons for Word Bearers. Essentially, the only restrictions you should feel that there are are "Night Lords=terror tactics" and "Word Bearers=zealots". You can, if you want to, try going from there to build an original idea - a Night Lords Terminator warband, maybe, or a bunch of Word Bearers with jump packs, hurtling through the air screaming praise to the gods? The sky's the limit.

[Sception]

As I said, there's nothing enforcing the typical unit preferences & tactics of a given legion on players. Remember that the Chaos Legions of the 41st millenium aren't the strictly prescribed chapters of the modern astartes, nor even the rigidly organized hierarchies of the Heresy era. They are rather gatherings of warlords sworn to a particular banner or warmaster, each bringing with them whatever forces they choose to lead or are able to gather. In addition, much of the individual character present in loyalist chapters comes from quirks of their gene seed. While the original chaos legions also showed such quirks, the modern legions are far less influenced by them, since exposure to the warp corrupts traitor gene seed, making it unusable. While the bitter, hardened core of of the modern chaos legions may be original 'Word Bearers' or 'Night Lords', post-heresy recruits (and all Chaos Legions rely heavily on post-heresy recruits to bolster numbers, even if they're considered something less than 'full legion members') won't be part of that legacy.

 

And then there's the issue of mercenary chaos marines. The obliterators may trace back to a sect of tech marines of the iron warriors, but at this point they consider themselves more a part of the dark mechanicus, and sell their services to any chaos legion able to pay them the arcane relics and technological artifacts they crave - and all legions are eager for their services. Likewise each of the cult legions has either been shattered or seen an exodus or exile of a number of their figures over the course of their history, spreading cult troop mercenaries through the Eye. While the legions overall may have a particular character, there is nothing in the fluff or the rules obligating any given warlord making war under any given legion's flag to toe the party line.

 

If you want berzerkers in your Iron Warriors, you shouldn't feel obligated to use counts as. Iron Warriors can appreciate the value of shock troop sell swords as much as anyone, and World Eater splinter groups are glad to go wherever there's skulls to be taken and spoils to reap.

 

 

On the other hand, in a paradigm where there are no specific rules differentiating between different factions, the choice to field an army matching the character of your chosen legion voluntarily is all the more significant. You field a Word Bearersesque or Night Lordsesque army not because some arbitrary rules put your army in a straight jacket, and not because you're given some fancy cookie for doing so (and really, for those two legions in particular, the 3.5 rules offered little more than a cookie and a pat on the head for all the options they took away), but rather because you like your legion of choice and want to field an army representative of that legion for its own sake.

 

This is how themed armies were done before 3.5, and it worked just fine. This is how themed armies are done by eldar or ork players today as well. You take a codex with a bunch of units - and even the gav dex, much as we all dislike it, has several units to work with - and you field the ones that match your theme, and don't field the ones that don't. It's not that hard. If a unit is particularly good, but doesn't match your theme, then come up with a reason why its there or don't field it. If you're just playing to win, then field whatever, but then why bother with a themed army to begin with?

 

 

/highhorse

[Kristoff]

In going along with the last 2 posts, I would advocate BOTH, especially with Dark Vengeance having arrived.

 

Night Lords should be some of your nasty surprise units, quick and nasty, while your Word Bearers be the core and priestly sorts. Just give them some identifying/uniting badge to work with, and you're good.

 

So, I'd suggest using a Word Bearer HQ, mostly because that would fit them best. The Night Lords would then be sell-bolters under his command.

 

Chosen and Terminators would be as you feel best and how you plan to use them. Dreads/Helbrutes would likely be Word Bearer, and Possessed most definitely would.

 

For Troops, keep Night Lords to basic Chaos Marines, while some may have become Cult Marines, they are less likely. Cult Marines can go either their original or Word Bearer identity, and the Cultists (when finally legal) would be Word Bearers.

 

Fast Attack units would be primarily Night Lord, for now, if you field them.

 

Heavy Support could go either way, really.