6th edition scout armies

[greatcrusade08]

[center; background-image:url(http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/hq2.gif); background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 8px 2px; padding: 12px 8px 12px 8px; border: 1px solid #DDD; margin-left: 0 auto; text-align: left; color: #fff; text-indent:50px; font-size:130%; width:50%;">6th edition scout armies[/center]

mathhammer

please note, I myself really dislike math hammer, but in some places you’ll note I refer to chances and odds of things happening, this is merely ’averages’, or what should happen as opposed to what will happen.

It should be noted this article will only cover the changes made by the sixth edition rulebook.
I expect the space marine 6th edition codex will make further changes at which point I will need to revisit this tactica.

VOE snap shot

please note, this rule is correct by RAW, but some people don’t like it or find it unsporting, please discuss this with your friends before the game, its not worth losing friends over

He also still has his voice of experience rule which comes in very handy.
Ive always said its best used with the ML and I havent changed my mind, infact VoE can be used to snap shot at BS6 during your own turn, so you can move and fire, and/or shoot at enemy flyers without penalty.

Between telions 2 precison shots and an average two from his squad, chances are each turn you’ll be getting a rending precision wound, which is exactly the reason you want to include them..
However its important to note that enemy squad leaders do get a look out sir roll of 4+ (2+ for Ics).
So it might prove more beneficial to target heavy and special weapons first, before moving onto the squad leaders
Whilst we are on the topic of snipers I want to discuss the focus fire rule, which when paraphrased means you can target models from a unit outside of cover (but only those models).
Normally it’s a great way of wiping out lightly armoured models, but against tougher armour saves its essentially worthless, until of course you roll a few rending wounds.
Given that you stand more chance of causing precision hits than rending wounds, id be tempted not to focus fire with snipers against such targets, instead using the precision shots to target models out of cover.

Telion, 9 scout snipers with cloaks and a heavy weapon, comes in at 227 points, it does sound expensive, but is on par with a tactical squad with upgrades, has better potential saves and arguably better basic shooting.

Bolter scouts: these chaps have made their way back into contention in 6th edition in my opinion.
This is mainly due to changes to rapid fire and the addition of overwatch rules.
Bolter scouts can now move and still fire at long range, and although they are lower BS, snap firing them is the same as snap firing a unit of tactical marines.
Sadly they still lack special weapons, but they do have the options for either a HB or ML, the former being great for adding weight of fire, the latter has become more useful against vehicles now that hull points have made an appearance
Cost has always raised an eyebrow with these fellas, at 150 points for ten with a heavy weapon they are very worthwhile, however a 10 man tactical squad comes in at 170 with a special and heavy weapon, and to most people is arguably better in many ways, better save, better WS and BS, access to better upgrades and dedicated transports.
And whilst all that is true, the scouts do offer something that tactical marines don’t, outflank, infiltrate and scout.
Bolter scouts will always deploy last (if you want them to) even when you have first turn, deploying to counter your opponent can be a great bonus, it also means they can start the game anywhere on the board (not just their DZ) and just outside of 12” of the enemy.
With turn one movement they can rapid fire before the opponent has even moved. This is of course just an example, what they offer you is far more flexibility in deployment than their tactical brethren.
They can too be upgraded with camo cloaks for similar survivability, but too many upgrades does tend to spoil their biggest benefit, which is their cost

Shotgun scouts: these havent changed since 5th edition, they still offer the same shotgun vs. bolter argument, both give two shots at close range, but shotguns get to charge whereas bolters don’t.
Bolters still have a better AP though and can fire at ranges over 12”.
Its still a matter for personal taste, but shotguns can be very handy in an outflanking capacity.

Close combat scouts: sadly I see a coming decline in the use of close combat scouts, the inability to assault after infiltrate, scout or outflank sees these boys having to take a whole turns shooting plus overwatch before they reach assault.
Sadly their greatest strength was weight of attacks, but given their 4+ save I cant see them making combat with a full unit anymore.
This being said, although their offensive abilities have taken a hit, used defensively as a counter assault unit I still feel they can be effective.
Hiding them behind units in cover or using friendly units as cover, they can push forward to meet units at half strength caused by your shooting, or be thrown into an existing combat to help turn the tide.
Again one of their big benefits is their cost, at 140 without upgrades and throwing out over 30 attacks they cant be sniffed at, but require a lot more thought than in 5th edition.

Land speeder storms

assault vehicles

it should be noted, that some people argue that as an assault vehicle the LSS bypasses any restrictions on assaults, such as no assaulting after infiltrate/outflank and scout, IMO this argument is incorrect, at best its a grey area argument and should be treated as incorrect until an FAQ is released

By far the best scout unit of 5th edition, however changes to scout and limitations to assaulting after infiltrate, flanking and scout means the storms have taken quite a hit.
It has however been given jink rule, which means if it moves at combat speed it gets a cover save of 5+, if it goes flat out it gets 4+ cover save. When your made of paper with only 2 hull points, every little helps.
Their scout move has been limited to 12” which makes pre game tactics very difficult as the storm has to deploy normally unlike other scout units (it doesn’t have infiltrate).
The storm itself can move at cruising speed (upto 12”) and still fire however if it moves more than combat speed (6”) the unit inside cannot disembark or fire normally, snap fire still applies at cruising speed, but hinders any reliable results.
All together that’s 18” which is still a decent distance to work with, it should allow you to get within close range with a hull mounted multi-melta, but its not gauranteed against a savvy opponent who deploys tactically in reaction to placement of the melta storms.

Last edition I highlighted 3 main uses of the land speeder storm.
The first being the “tri-melta storm” used for alpha strikes and flanking attacks to destroy vehicles.
It was LSS with MM and 5 scouts with combi-melta and melta bombs.
Whilst still a reasonably effective build, against a tactically aware opponent its probably better used as a flanker than an alpha striker.
Another idea would be to try and deploy centrally giving you a greater chance of hitting a vehicle turn one, and if your opponent deploys to counter that, go flat out for the jink save and hope you survive until the following turn. it’s a little risky, but storms have a short life expectancy anyway.
The good thing about melta, is that at AP1 and two dice for penetration rolls it still has the ability to destroy vehicles in one shot bypassing the hull points, even a BS3 MM from a storm has a even chance of doing something good, it only needs the opportunity.

The second build was the flame storm:
LSS with HF, 5 scouts with combi-flamer, again same uses, but no alpha striking.
The difference being that unlike the melta storm, the flame storm is extremely unlikely to be in position turn one to effect shooting from both passengers and vehicle, so is more suited to an outflanking objective seizing role.

The final build and my least favourite from 5th ed was the dakka storm:
LSS with HB, 5 bolter scouts with HB.
As things turn out, this is probably one of the better builds in this edition, the changes to rapid fire rule means they an still shoot at long range when the speeder moves and the HB can snap fire (just not hellfire shot)
This is good for long range shooting, either keep the storm moving for its jink save, or park it behind a decent bit of cover, thankfully aslong as you can draw LOS to a part of the storms hull, all passengers may fire, so it should be possible to get a 4+ save on the storm and remain stationary for shooting.

plasma-slinger storm

i cant claim this idea, it was put forward by B&C member Stormshadow

Of course there are other options, and 6th ed has forced me to look into new builds.
One suggested method is the plasma-slinger storm
It’s a land speeder storm with MM and instead of running a combi-melta, you give the sergeant two plasma pistols, with the gunslinger rule he can fire both in the same turn, and unlike the combis its not a single shot.
Its not without risk (overheating), and is more expensive than a combi.. However a lot of people run combi and fist and twin plasma is cheaper than that combo.
Plasma is S7 AP2 and as such stands a fair chance of hurting most vehicles, but it also makes this a danger to heavy infantry such as terminators and monstrous creatures.
The ability to fire in a second (and more) turn is also nice, even if the storm isn’t around.

Given that sergeants are characters, twin plasma stands a one in three chance of scoring a precision hit too, and whats more, more shots equals a chance of removing more hull points.
Gunslingers still get +1A in combat for 2 ccws too, so this sergeant would have 4 attacks on the charge, that’s enough on average to force a wound on a space marine if it comes to it.
Another benefit comes from overwatch, an open topped transports embarked squad may fire as overwatch if the transport is charged (or they can fire if themselves are charged too), and two plasma pistols on overwatch is nothing to be sniffed at, and again any 6 is a precision hit too.
In short it really fills the lack of AP weapons scout armies suffer from

There are of course changes to existing builds, dakka storms can be used as bunkers for MLs, taking advatange of the cover and LOS rules for embarked troops at extreme range.

Telion in storms
Telion when taken in a land speeder storm can really change its dynamics, a MM storm moving to shoot first turn, can move 12” instead of 6 and its passengers can fire snap shot, due to VoE the ML scout can fire at BS6, giving the speeder extra ‘range’ and adding a ML shot to its MM for tank busting
Alternatively Telion and snipers can use the storm as a bunker, again taking advantage of cover and LOS rules for embarked troops.

As a footnote, id like to add that I expect storms to be given as dedicated vehicles to scouts in the next codex, if this happens, land speeder storms will be able to infiltrate and will get back the advantage they lost in the switch from 5th to 6th with threat range.


this is WIP and incomplete, i will try to finish it tomorrow.
if ive missed anything or am in error, please let me know

[ShadowHaunt]

I'm confused by your assumption of Telion's ability to essentially ignore Snap Shot. I did a search, but could not come up with any threads that explain this interpretation. Perhaps you could explain two things, here:

 

1. Why does Voice of Experience ignore Snap Shot?
   
2. Why does the same effect not apply equally to the BS5 from a Signum, in a Devastator squad?
   

 

If this was resolved in a different thread, a link to it would be fine, but all the threads I've seen seemed to resolve down to the opposite conclusion from what you're drawing, here.

[Kierdale]

One suggestion would be, since Telion is a popular choice in sniper squads and since planting such squads behind Aegis lines is popular, to mention the benefits of having the good sergeant man the Icarus las cannon or quad gun.

[greatcrusade08]

One suggestion would be, since Telion is a popular choice in sniper squads and since planting such squads behind Aegis lines is popular, to mention the benefits of having the good sergeant man the Icarus las cannon or quad gun.

 

yup i havent got to fortifications yet, its on my list

 

 

I'm confused by your assumption of Telion's ability to essentially ignore Snap Shot. I did a search, but could not come up with any threads that explain this interpretation. Perhaps you could explain two things, here:

 

1. Why does Voice of Experience ignore Snap Shot?
   
2. Why does the same effect not apply equally to the BS5 from a Signum, in a Devastator squad?
   

 

If this was resolved in a different thread, a link to it would be fine, but all the threads I've seen seemed to resolve down to the opposite conclusion from what you're drawing, here.

 

Telions VoE and signums dont ignore snap shot per se.

snap shot is still in effect, however the rules on applying modifers are very well laid out.

 

multiple modifers on page 2 of the BRB gives us the following order for applying modifiers:

apply multipliers first. (Sx2 etc)

then apply additions (+1S etc)

then apply set values (weapon is S6 etc)

 

snap fire applies a set value to your BS, as does VOE and signum.. so what order are they applied in?

 

page 9 exceptions says the following when events occur at the same time:

the player whos turn it is decides the order in which these events occur

 

as its my turn ill declare that i apply snap fire BS1 first and then VoE second, giving me BS6.. if i were to overwatch my opponent would choose to apply VoE first and snap fire second as its his turn and his choice.

 

edit: if people disgree with that rules interpretations, please take the issue to the OR forum, and not clutter up this tactica thread.. thank you

[Warprat]

Another new added weapon to Scout Squads are thrown grenades. Talk about templates... a small Scout Squad can take combi-flamer, heavy bolter and throw a frag grenade. And the squad can still rapid fire for an additional 4 bolter shots. Add in a LS Storm for a heavy flamer template.

 

Also, maybe these guys would be a better suicide unit against a dreadnought, than tactical marines. The assault weapon on the dread will kill any normal armor anyway, and scouts can take the same amount of grenades and melta bombs as other marine squads.

[greatcrusade08]

Another new added weapon to Scout Squads are thrown grenades. Talk about templates... a small Scout Squad can take combi-flamer, heavy bolter and throw a frag grenade. And the squad can still rapid fire for an additional 4 bolter shots. Add in a LS Storm for a heavy flamer template.

 

i keep forgetting about grenades, ill add that in.. thanks mate

 

Also, maybe these guys would be a better suicide unit against a dreadnought, than tactical marines. The assault weapon on the dread will kill any normal armor anyway, and scouts can take the same amount of grenades and melta bombs as other marine squads.

its not just vs walkers, vehicles are alot easier to kill in close combat in 6th, its on my list of things to add

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

Will this thread include scout bikes update as well? I eagerly wait for your wisdom. :D

[greatcrusade08]

Will this thread include scout bikes update as well? I eagerly wait for your wisdom. ;)

 

yes, although im being very lazy at the moment, i hope to get the next section done soon :P

[appiah4]

Can Sniper Rifles be snap fired?

 

Bolter/Sniper/ML scouts are a good harassing unit to deply behind enemy lines.

[greatcrusade08]

Can Sniper Rifles be snap fired?

 

yes ;)

[ShadowHaunt]

Can Sniper Rifles be snap fired?

 

yes :o

 

The real question is, would you want to? Remember the scouts still have their Bolt Pistols, which against many targets will be more effective when fired on Overwatch. Likewise, if you're snapfiring because you moved, if you're in range to use the Pistols, you'll be able to use them at full BS, so they'll be far more effective than Snap Shots with the rifles. That leaves only firing at flyers, where you need the Rending to come into play to have any effect at all.

[appiah4]

Can Sniper Rifles be snap fired?

 

yes :)

 

The real question is, would you want to? Remember the scouts still have their Bolt Pistols, which against many targets will be more effective when fired on Overwatch. Likewise, if you're snapfiring because you moved, if you're in range to use the Pistols, you'll be able to use them at full BS, so they'll be far more effective than Snap Shots with the rifles. That leaves only firing at flyers, where you need the Rending to come into play to have any effect at all.

 

Sniper Rifles cause pinning checks, which can make sure you won't get charged. Besides you may wanna snap fire if you are getting charged. Especially by something with high T.

[greatcrusade08]

snap firing rifles, is alot better than snap firing pistols.. you need a 6 to hit meaning all your successful hits will be precision shots..

you then have a chance to rend and pin

[Knives]

snap firing rifles, is alot better than snap firing pistols.. you need a 6 to hit meaning all your successful hits will be precision shots..

you then have a chance to rend and pin

 

 

Under the precision shots rules you can't snapshot and get this rule to combo with it. It kinda sucks Telion into a spot and makes him never want to move unless he is combat tactics away from the fight.

 

Scout bikers will have a soon come back I think.

 

3 AGL with the possible Snapshot of 3 Krak shot with an additional scout tossing a nade will prove nasty for any thing trying to assault them. I would also hope to see the scout teams given a weapon that would be practical to copy this weapon in the troop section.

[greatcrusade08]

Under the precision shots rules you can't snapshot and get this rule to combo with it.

 

yes, you are right, i should have checked

[Knives]

Its fine GS08 I use to have scout heavy force myself tested them out after reading the rule book for my first game this edition. I feed them to a display case of Nids, and sent shrike in with them.

 

Close combat scouts... I am debating in my head if CCWs would actually be a better use for a skirmish and retreat scout army. depending on dice ammount more attacks in combat is better then having fewer dice out of combat. ... i may play a few small point scout games to test this. SM dex throws some normal logic off in this matter.

[greatcrusade08]

yeah ccw scouts require alot more playtesting to find thier place now IMO.. well worth some experimentation.

 

from GWs FAQs, it looks as though ill be able to take all of the grey areas away from this article.

the one i was wrong about is telions VoE over-riding snap firing, others i was riht about was not being able to charge after arriving from reserve.

 

heres a qucik rundown.

you can use a scout move and still charge if you go second.. the limitation is for first player turn, not game turn.

scouts cant assault from LSS after reserve

voE doesnt change snap shot

precision shots have to be allocated to models in LOS (no surprise)