Cultists or traitors?

[Beachymike123]

with the release of the new dark vengeance boxed set and new minis contained within, what are peoples thoughts on the human worshippers of chaos, more specifically their entry in the new chaos codex?

i'm reckoning they'll be traitors, with a possibility that we'll see human leaders and psykers too, but that is pure speculation. what i'm interested in is are the human chaos followers in the boxed set regarded as cultists or traitors? i ask this as it could be a possible insight into the new chaos codex, which i think would be more akin to the 2nd ed incarnation or much like the army list presented in C:eye of terror, where you have a traitors and mutants section.

just wondering what the general consensus was more than anything really, we won't know anything until the codex is released.

also, my apologies to the mods for this thread, if you feel its inappropriate (non-PA figures) please shut it down.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

From the Imperial POV, cultists are traitors...

 

Maybe I'm just not understanding the question?

[Hellrender]

As far i have seen their name and entries says cultists. But in the fluffbits they get also called traitors.i do not think they are traitor guard, just armed cultists.

 

I hope i understood your question right, and that this answered it.

[Olis]

I'd concur - they're cultists and will likely be called as such in any upcoming codex. "Traitors" is a bit of a broad brush to apply to a singular unit entry, imho.

[Beachymike123]

From the Imperial POV, cultists are traitors...

 

Maybe I'm just not understanding the question?

 

i get your response, should've made myself clearer. to me, cultists are the general population who want to get out of the drudgery of everyday imperial life so create secret societies that worship the dark gods to gain power quickly, traitors are more militarised versions (ex-bounty hunters, traitor guardsmen, etc) who can properly fight (the best difference i can give is the difference between juves and gangers in necromunda). what i was getting at (and i do apologise for any confusion) was what do we think the codex will be and what are the minis in the DV boxed set? i think from what many have said they are put across as cultists but imho it would be more likely that the codex entry will be traitors. just wondering what people are hoping for/expecting to see in the new codex.

[Emperors Immortals]

id say a traitor is not necessarily a cultist or chaos adherant per se, while a cultist knows what he follows is daemonic.

[Ammonius]

I'd say it depends on whether this is legitimate or not

[Vesper]

I'd say it depends on whether this is legitimate or not

 

 

What the heck is that ?

[Kol Saresk]

That looks like something I saw of a snippet in an old 3rd or 3.5 edition Codex.

 

I'd hazard that they'd be cultists because they are more likely to be a type of cannon fodder unit like you see in the DoW games rather than a Chaos/Traitor version of the Guard.

[Azekai]

I'd say it depends on whether this is legitimate or not

Those stats don't make sense- troopers can exchange shotguns for free but the champ has to pay 5 points for the same upgrade? Madness.

 

I'd hazard that they'd be cultists because they are more likely to be a type of cannon fodder unit like you see in the DoW games rather than a Chaos/Traitor version of the Guard.

This. Also, we already get guard allies, so having two ways to get guardsmen in your army seems rather unnecessary.

[Biaz]

Yeah, allied "Imperial Guard" are meant to be your traitor Guard. They have the military training, professional soldiers and tanks & artillary. Cultists are merely militia, populations of humans from daemon worlds or pirates and renegades from the maelstrom. Cannon fodder in your typical Chaos force, or possible new recruits into CSM warband if they survive "initiation". The ability to take guard as allies is a clear differentiation between traitor guard and cultists on GW's part.

[totgeboren]

Well it seems like they are about the same profile-wise, with the cultists just having a worse save.

 

However, I must point out that taking proper "Traitor Guards" from the IG codex gives you access to humans with real military-grade gear, like meltaguns, plasmaguns and heavy weapons, not to mention Officers with orders that can massively improve the performance of your troops.

 

Cultists, while similar at a glance, are much worse troops than your average Traitor Guardsman if you take into account their general battlefield impact.

I would say that the profile of the cultists given in the starter is worth at most 4 pts per model. Real guards cost about 5 pts, but that includes a Sgt, frags (which are vital for assaulting buildings now), orders and access to good weapons, not to mention all the little extras like cheap mortar squads, elite veterans, heavy tanks and awesome artillery, cheap chimeras and broken fliers if you so fancy.

So Traitor Guards still have a lot to offer compared to just taking cultists instead, even if they have the same BS.

[Excessus]

This is what I think of the difference between cultists and imperial guardsmen: :P

 

[Kizzdougs]

Cultists shouldn't be under estimated. Sure the cultists don't have the discipline or technology of the guard but many of them will be the most hardened criminals from the most brutal underhives. They'll have been fighting for survival their whole lives. Lets not forget any Daemonic pacts they might have made :lol:

 

When I think of mortals in my CSM army (IW and WB) I don't really think of traitor guard or cultists. I imagine that most mortals would be enslaved Imperial citizens. They WBs would have some crazed cultist but the vast majority would be slaves.

[Lone Scout]

Who cares they'll be little more than blobs of smoldering goo once properly cleansed with plasma fire!!!

[Lord_Caerolion]

There probably are a fair few bounty hunters and ex-guardsmen mixed in, background wise, it's just that we get a "general" stat line for the unit, as the bountyhunter who can actually shoot is balanced out by your next cultist, a shopkeeper who's never held any weapon other than his meat cleaver in his life, and now has an autogun. Cultists should be an excuse to have an eclectic mish-mash of weapon styles and armour types, as each cultist brings what weapons they can to the fight, which is usually of fairly low quality.

 

So yes, feel free to throw in a few guardsmen models with lasguns and flak armour, that guardsman is a retired infantryman who snapped over the horrors he saw in battle, and has now joined the cult, and brings his battered old service rifle and his dusty old flak armour out with him.

[Amalricus]

There's no indication nor reason why cultists should change names between the DV set and the incoming ( lets hope at least) codex. This also applies to the hellbrute, there's no way he turns back into a "chaos dread", it wouldn't make any sense and cause a lot of confusion amongst players ( especially concerning cultists, with a fairly high number players adding or planning to add allied traitor guard.)

[Beachymike123]

Yeah, allied "Imperial Guard" are meant to be your traitor Guard. They have the military training, professional soldiers and tanks & artillary. Cultists are merely militia, populations of humans from daemon worlds or pirates and renegades from the maelstrom. Cannon fodder in your typical Chaos force, or possible new recruits into CSM warband if they survive "initiation". The ability to take guard as allies is a clear differentiation between traitor guard and cultists on GW's part.

 

fair point. hadn't really thought of that when i posted the original post (my bad). my thoughts also trail on to wonder if there will be bonuses for them too (mutations, ability to carry icons etc) for those fully given over to the dark side of civilization (or lack thereof). maybe there'll be a general table you can pick skills from, with each unit having a set limit (like the old veteran skills from 3.5). imho, the new codex can't come soon enough. ;)

[minigun762]

my thoughts also trail on to wonder if there will be bonuses for them too (mutations, ability to carry icons etc) for those fully given over to the dark side of civilization (or lack thereof). maybe there'll be a general table you can pick skills from, with each unit having a set limit (like the old veteran skills from 3.5). imho, the new codex can't come soon enough. :)

 

I don't think its appropriate to have your rank and file cultist have any kind of direct mutation or blessing from the dark gods. You have to remember that they're just one of a million or billion people on a planet and frankly, you don't matter enough.

 

Now the leader of a cult and that cult has wormed its way deep into the workings of a powerful planet and you lead tens of thousands of warriors for the dark god, you might get a moment's attention, maybe...

[Pariah Mk.231]

my thoughts also trail on to wonder if there will be bonuses for them too (mutations, ability to carry icons etc) for those fully given over to the dark side of civilization (or lack thereof). maybe there'll be a general table you can pick skills from, with each unit having a set limit (like the old veteran skills from 3.5). imho, the new codex can't come soon enough. :lol:

 

I don't think its appropriate to have your rank and file cultist have any kind of direct mutation or blessing from the dark gods. You have to remember that they're just one of a million or billion people on a planet and frankly, you don't matter enough.

 

Now the leader of a cult and that cult has wormed its way deep into the workings of a powerful planet and you lead tens of thousands of warriors for the dark god, you might get a moment's attention, maybe...

 

 

I think it's highly appropriate for regular Joe Cultist to have mutations, not as dark gifts but because humanity is crawling with immense mutant populations. Be it birth defects from generations of living in the filthy conditions humans in the lowest classes can find themselves in, warp exposure from living in a region where the veil between reality and the warp is particularly thin or because they fell into the clutches of a mad scientist and awoke to find new "bits" grafted onto them. Perhaps they're simply recruited from the population of one of the countless worlds within the Eye, where being free of mutation would be a rarity.

Since they're pursecuted anyway, it's not much of a leap for these mutant populations to turn to Chaos in an attempt to find release.

I can picture a Chaos champion deciding he's a bit light on marine minions so would like to boost the effectiveness of his mortal followers. His warband attacks an isolated world, enslaves the population and then pays a visit to Commoragh to deal with the Haemonculi, exchanging the slaves for some "enhancements" to his cultist followers. He probably wouldn't mind losing a few men to the wild experimentations of the flesh shapers, there's always more fodder where they came from.

 

It's not even too much of a stretch of the imagination for cultists to catch the attention of the dark gods. Say a cultist manages to climb the leg of a titan, find a way inside and start destroying vital equipment and killing the crew, disabling it and making good his escape. I bet you that guy is not only getting noticed, he's getting a fairly nifty reward from his patron.

[Sparika]

First post overhere,

 

If you look at these dark vengeance cultist's boots (they have gaiters) and others details, they all seems to be former guardsmen instead of civilian cultists.

Just my 2 cents.

 

I intend to paint them as Cadian 8th to provoke a friend. :)

 

edit: found the right word on google trad, gaiter.

[*Furyou Miko]

Really? I can't see any Guard-type stuff on mine, except the Commissar's coat. They mostly seem to be wearing labourer type stuff - boots, torn trousers, aprons, smocks and the like.

[The Colossus]

From the What's New Today Blog

 

Some are equipped with modified gas masks and wear uniforms very similar to Imperial fatigues. Others wear long robes and cowls suggesting a link to the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Administratum or the Ecclesiarchy. The majority, however, wear simple hab-worker gear - heavy boots, ragged shirts and low-tech rebreather units.

[minigun762]

I think it's highly appropriate for regular Joe Cultist to have mutations, not as dark gifts but because humanity is crawling with immense mutant populations. Be it birth defects from generations of living in the filthy conditions humans in the lowest classes can find themselves in, warp exposure from living in a region where the veil between reality and the warp is particularly thin or because they fell into the clutches of a mad scientist and awoke to find new "bits" grafted onto them. Perhaps they're simply recruited from the population of one of the countless worlds within the Eye, where being free of mutation would be a rarity.

 

Thats a fair point, mutations and alterations from other sources are entirely possible. My point was limited to direct, divine intervention of the big four.

[Tenebris]

Storywise:

 

 

Anarkus is a former manofactorum worker who slaughtered his way to the top ranks of a cult.

 

Tetchvar is an ex-commissar who betrayed his regiment and allowed a cultist force to invade the fortress his regiment was defending.

 

So one is a pure cultist, the other is a traitor.

 

 

Now when I look at the DV cultists I see a mobile cover save for my marines and a proper meatshield for my melee units. If we predict that a cultist squad would be around 50 points, with the ability to make it either melee or ranged it is a bargain if we want to upgrade an elite Chaos SM army made from cult troops (rubic marines for example) or elites. The cultist blob has the job to eat dakka while the real meanies get closer. What I hope is that they will have some sort of rule that makes them even more sacrificable (like the explosion from DoW II) so that we might actually love to send them to the grinder.