Chaos Undivided confusion...

[A D-B]

This is like many polytheistic religions of our past. Lets take the Romans as an example because most of us are pretty familiar with them through the semi-accurate representations of the cinema. The Romans had many many gods (not all of them were the same as the Greeks, or even the ones that they shared were not always the exactly the same...just a point of note). An individual might pray to Mars for strength in battle, or Janus for luck in a new business dealing. But usually there was one god, that that individual prayed to the most. A patron god, if you will. I would assume the same applies to something like the word bearers. As a collective group, they worship all the gods, but that doesn't mean individuals don't have their favorites.

 

Nailed it to perfection. (Saved, for future linkage.)

[Wade Garrett]

To be honest I always liked the notion (from some of the older fluff) that a Chaos Undivided warband might worship the big 4 as mere aspects of the Primordial Annilihator, basically like the fingers on a hand.

 

Sure, from the limited viewpoint of an Emperor's Child or World Eater, each finger might seem to be a seperate entity, and there might be cause to proclaim one finger "better"than the others. But the truth scion of Chaos knows that ecstacy, rage, ambition, and despair are nought but parts of a greater whole, each 2-D triangle a part of the pyramid of Chaos Undivided.

 

Although I suppose there's nothing stopping a Dark Apostle (Chao Lord, Sorcerer, etc.) from instilling such a belief in "Chaos Voltron" in his troops, and still getting blessed by the big 4, but that doesn't mean it's CORRECT.

[Lord Kallozar]

This is like many polytheistic religions of our past. Lets take the Romans as an example because most of us are pretty familiar with them through the semi-accurate representations of the cinema. The Romans had many many gods (not all of them were the same as the Greeks, or even the ones that they shared were not always the exactly the same...just a point of note). An individual might pray to Mars for strength in battle, or Janus for luck in a new business dealing. But usually there was one god, that that individual prayed to the most. A patron god, if you will. I would assume the same applies to something like the word bearers. As a collective group, they worship all the gods, but that doesn't mean individuals don't have their favorites.

 

Nailed it to perfection. (Saved, for future linkage.)

This has also clarified all the confusion about undivided, makes perfect sense ;)

 

Just one more silly question - what of Daemons? As in for example if a marine was to be possessed by a daemon but still remain undivided in allegiance, how would that work? Which daemon would possess a marine and remain undivided?

[RapatoR]

This has also clarified all the confusion about undivided, makes perfect sense :lol:

 

Just one more silly question - what of Daemons? As in for example if a marine was to be possessed by a daemon but still remain undivided in allegiance, how would that work? Which daemon would possess a marine and remain undivided?

Well, if I understand it correctly, there are daemons that are not construct of a single god but of a whole Pantheon: Ingethel the Ascended springs to mind as example, but I might be wrong.

 

I have one question to discuss too: It is usual for worshipper(s) to devout themselves for example to two/three gods while ignoring other two/one? and to related note, are there daemonic entities which are combined constructs of two/three gods?

 

Last, but not least, I want to thank A D-B for his input for (not only) this topic. Speaking for myself, but for last 2 years my understanding of 40k universe seen a huge improvement thanks to your posts on this forum.

[Kol Saresk]

If I had to guess, I would say that it depends on the relationship that develops between the demon and the host. Take Argel Tal for example, given what the current IP is telling A-D-B, the demon that possessed him was obviously aligned, even if just in power source, to one of the powers(I would hazard Slaanesh judging by what the demon half told Lorgar during its reiteration of Argel Tal's experience into the Eye, yet I have yet to see Argel Tal himself display any particular amounts of devotion to anything other than his Primarch. In fact, I remember somewhere he says something along the lines of "I hate what I have become in your service."

 

Basically my answer is that the demon will always be aligned. However, the host is a different story that goes anywhere from Undivided to the same patron to a different patron to no patron at all and depending on who is in control, would determine the overall alignment.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Thanks everyone for all the replies. So basically your saying that an undivided worshipping warband (taking Word Bearers as an example who worship all 4 gods equally as a pantheon) will be granted mutations by each of the 4 gods individually but not be claimed by that singular god? For example a marine will be blessed by Tzeentch in the form of a spiky giant fist, but will not be claimed by Tzeentch?

 

As A D-B stated above, a Marine isn't going to look at a mutation and think "right, now this spiky fist obviously came from Tzeentch, so does this make me Tzeentchian now?" They just see that their hand has mutated, and take this as a sign of favouritism from the 4 Powers.

[Kol Saresk]

Thanks everyone for all the replies. So basically your saying that an undivided worshipping warband (taking Word Bearers as an example who worship all 4 gods equally as a pantheon) will be granted mutations by each of the 4 gods individually but not be claimed by that singular god? For example a marine will be blessed by Tzeentch in the form of a spiky giant fist, but will not be claimed by Tzeentch?

 

As A D-B stated above, a Marine isn't going to look at a mutation and think "right, now this spiky fist obviously came from Tzeentch, so does this make me Tzeentchian now?" They just see that their hand has mutated, and take this as a sign of favouritism from the 4 Powers.

The Soul Drinkers have a very good example with Tellos from that regard.

[Kristoff]

Unless they change the fluff behind Fiends, there are some non-aligned Daemons in the Warp. But I imagine that what you're really talking about is any daemons of sufficient power to cause a change like in mutation or overwhelming a Psyker's defenses, which light weights like Fiends wouldn't be able to pull off.

[A D-B]

Unless they change the fluff behind Fiends, there are some non-aligned Daemons in the Warp. But I imagine that what you're really talking about is any daemons of sufficient power to cause a change like in mutation or overwhelming a Psyker's defenses, which light weights like Fiends wouldn't be able to pull off.

 

I'm a bit lost. You mean Fiends of Slaanesh?

[space wolf]

This is like many polytheistic religions of our past. Lets take the Romans as an example because most of us are pretty familiar with them through the semi-accurate representations of the cinema. The Romans had many many gods (not all of them were the same as the Greeks, or even the ones that they shared were not always the exactly the same...just a point of note). An individual might pray to Mars for strength in battle, or Janus for luck in a new business dealing. But usually there was one god, that that individual prayed to the most. A patron god, if you will. I would assume the same applies to something like the word bearers. As a collective group, they worship all the gods, but that doesn't mean individuals don't have their favorites.

 

Nailed it to perfection. (Saved, for future linkage.)

 

*Tips historian hat* We all only do what we can :tu:

[voi shet magir]

He means furies. Whatever.

 

Daemons do not cause mutation; daemons do not exist. Chaos just means winning and, for limited people, winning means wiping out everyone else, being the best, hanging on forever, or getting the most rewards. Since hordes of people since time began have followed those patterns, mutants lose their distinct identities and all those other people and events come spilling out through their bodies.

 

Of course there are daemons. Shut it if you never asked why they were invented, though.

[A D-B]

He means furies.

 

Ah, of course. Yeah, Kristoff, that's the exact reference I was thinking when I said:

 

There's no Chaos Undivided, and references to Undivided as a "thing" are rarer and rarer. No more Mark of Chaos Undivided, for example. No more references to daemons of Chaos Undivided (not that there were many, anyway). The Warp essentially is the Four Powers, and the millions and billions of lesser entities aligned with them, composed of them, born from them, and so on.

 

...and...

 

I'm saying I've not seen any mentioned for a long time now, and the few I've seen even relatively recently were from dated, unchecked sources. Given how GW retcons, I think that's pretty telling.

[RapatoR]

Ok so to clarify, daemons such as Ingethel the Ascended are not undivided daemons but Pantheon daemons?

 

What about worshipping/daemons from two gods? Is this possible or no go?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Given that so much of a daemon's form is drawn from its parent god, I don't think any of the stock types of daemons we're all familiar with are going to be crossing boundaries much. After all, each daemonic form is a lesser representation of its parent god. The motivations of the daemons are also slightly askew. They all want to corrupt corruptible people and destroy, well, everything, but the hows and whys are the difference. Tzeentch's daemons have no problem tossing a little warp-flame around and cackling while everyone burns, but Khornate daemons won't be happy until they've gotten up close and personal and cloven you in twain. (By the way, the Bloodletters from the Space Marine video game were friggin' terrifying to fight at first. They kept bouncing around so I couldn't target 'em! And then I learned to love the melta. One shot, one kill! Or one shot, three kills if they're stacked up!)

 

And although it's not a GW source, but I'd like to bring the 40K RPG books from FFG into this discussion. Dark Heresy has a bunch of minor daemonic entities as enemies in the back of the main book, few (if any) of which are (or appear to be) god-aligned.

 

Plus, the way attaining Marks works in Black Crusade is interesting. Basically, each Skill or Talent belongs to the portfolio of one of the Big Four. So long as you maintain a balance in choosing Skills and Talents, you remain Undivided -- you are not devoted to any particular god, though you're still serving Chaos. As soon as you stack your abilities towards one god or another, you become Marked for them and start receiving bonuses and penalties for doing certain things or selecting certain new abilities. The point I'm getting at is that you can guide yourself to split the difference between any number of the gods in your worship and be totally ok. It's only once you seriously start specializing -- worshipping, one might say -- in one god's portfolio that you become Marked.

 

Short answer, yes, you can worship only two or three out of the four without tipping your personal scales in any meaningful way.

[Cate]

I had a similar discussion with some friends a couple of days ago, friends who might start to play the game. I tried to explain Chaos, the pantheon, daemons and how the worshipper worked in a very simplified way.

 

This is how I explained it for people who are not that into polytheistic religion.

 

See Chaos as different companies struggling to get as much power as possible in the field that they are active in, lets say law firms. One firm is an expert in criminal law, one in civil law, one in corporate law and one in international law, these four law firms are extremely large and are not only working with their field of expertise, but can do the other stuff if they wanted it. The CEOs of the different firms are the gods, Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch. The greater daemons are the board of directors, all of them are struggling to gather more power and even try to topple the CEO.

Below them are the Champions, also know as the Lawyers, the ones who have been employed by the CEO and have gotten a piece of the cake, like daemonic gifts and such and some power, but they can still be fired if they do a bad job or becomes scapegoats. Spawnhood anyone?

The Lesser daemons are paralegals, secretaries, and other people who are doing more menial tasks, and sometimes attached to one of the Lawyers, i.e. possessed. The lesser daemons are struggling to be seen by the the board of directors or the CEO so they can grow in power. The more menial workers in a law firm is not powerless as they still have a company backing them up, and they also have the dirt on the lawyers and board of directors, they do not use any dirt on the CEO directly as that might make them become unemployed and would not be "able to work in this ever again".

The law firm is one of the major powers, everyone who works for them is a piece of that power, everyone who is employed is a shard of that power and the Lawyers, (champions) are true believers of that god. They also are aware of the other firms, their champions, etc. etc..

 

What about undivided then? I see them as consultants or lawyers who have their own firms, but are still dependant of the major firms, they can be employed for a short while for a specific trial and get rewarded for that, if they play their cards right they can even reach daemonhood as princes. Daemons then, can they be undivided? If you think like this yes, still they can be consultants, temps or even problem solvers for the boards (an undivided greater daemon). So these unattached daemons and Champions can be employed by the huge powers (law firms).

 

What I am saying by this is that everyone who are in this system is a part of the corporate system, shard of chaos, the ones who are directly employed by a firm is a shard of that power, if you work for that firm for just a short while you become a part of that power, but just for that time, but after you left it you might have gathered some power and changed a little. You might even gotten a secretary or paralegal on your side, you have become possessed.

 

Can a law firm have all the power, yes of course, but I have never thought that far.

 

Hope you understand what I mean, even if it is kind of chaotic to read and understand what I mean.

 

/C

[Kristoff]

He means furies.

 

Ah, of course. Yeah, Kristoff, that's the exact reference I was thinking when I said:

 

There's no Chaos Undivided, and references to Undivided as a "thing" are rarer and rarer. No more Mark of Chaos Undivided, for example. No more references to daemons of Chaos Undivided (not that there were many, anyway). The Warp essentially is the Four Powers, and the millions and billions of lesser entities aligned with them, composed of them, born from them, and so on.

 

...and...

 

I'm saying I've not seen any mentioned for a long time now, and the few I've seen even relatively recently were from dated, unchecked sources. Given how GW retcons, I think that's pretty telling.

Yeah, I meant the furries. The comment was just meant to be a general one to the post, not necessarily to any one in particular.

 

But as I also said, the current fluff behind the Furies is that they are very weak manifestations, and wouldn't even attached to the Big 4 due to their lack of power. That lack not providing for anything meaningful in terms of mutations and such.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The furries? I thought those would be linked to Slaanesh? ;)

[A D-B]

But as I also said, the current fluff behind the Furies is that they are very weak manifestations, and wouldn't even attached to the Big 4 due to their lack of power. That lack not providing for anything meaningful in terms of mutations and such.

 

For really reals. As far as I'm aware, Furies are the exception that proves the rule. They're the only unaligned daemons in existence, and are pretty much just ascended mortal spirits, rather than warp-born entities.

[space wolf]

They're origin in the fluff could come from lack of understanding. If "in game" they are called furies, and the Inquisition seems to think they are unaligned, maybe its because they just don't have any of the overt signs of belonging to one of the fell gods. So they classify them as "unaligned." Anyone else pick up on the irony on trying to classify and put into groups entities who by their very nature don't make any logical sense?

[Lepaca]

Plus, the way attaining Marks works in Black Crusade is interesting. Basically, each Skill or Talent belongs to the portfolio of one of the Big Four. So long as you maintain a balance in choosing Skills and Talents, you remain Undivided -- you are not devoted to any particular god, though you're still serving Chaos. As soon as you stack your abilities towards one god or another, you become Marked for them and start receiving bonuses and penalties for doing certain things or selecting certain new abilities. The point I'm getting at is that you can guide yourself to split the difference between any number of the gods in your worship and be totally ok. It's only once you seriously start specializing -- worshipping, one might say -- in one god's portfolio that you become Marked.

 

I for one found the way marks worked in BC incredibly limiting. Try being a Nurgle sorcerer when every psychic related skill keeps shifting you away from Nurgle and closer to Tzeentch. And if I remember correctly Slaanesh for some weird reason only made you good at talking.

In short, not a big friend of this system. :D

[Azekai]

They're origin in the fluff could come from lack of understanding. If "in game" they are called furies, and the Inquisition seems to think they are unaligned, maybe its because they just don't have any of the overt signs of belonging to one of the fell gods. So they classify them as "unaligned." Anyone else pick up on the irony on trying to classify and put into groups entities who by their very nature don't make any logical sense?

 

This. I was actually thinking about the different warp predators that are featured in the fantasy flight RPG line and many of them are relatively low-powered unaligned daemon-critters: possessing space wraiths, murderous psychic entities and the like . . . but these could easily be aligned to a particular god and the Inquisition simply does not realize it.

[Xin Ceithan]

I like Cate`s explanation of the demonic managenent a lot.

 

So Furies are the exception to the rule ? I thought KNF showed a pretty mean panopticum of unaligned daemons? While I certainly think warp entities are surely more diverse than the GW sprues, those seemed hard to pin down to specific major powers....

But ADB is closer to current creative / fluffy minds at GW. Makes sense, too. Maybe that`s what we will see as an explanation to the rumored codex changes of seperating the marks and their effects from specific major powers since you would be able to ally with something that is " +1T" that is a subcontractorwith it`s own area of expertise.

[Hellrender]

was it furies that chaos followers changed into, if they switched patron to often?

 

I read somewhere that people that kept changing their minds of which patron to follow, in the end lost all favour, and became a furie, as punishment for their lack of devotion. But i can be sorely mistaken.

[Xin Ceithan]

They turn into spawn....

 

oh and remember when you could be rewarded PSEUDODAEMONHOOD

now it gets really confusing B)

[Kol Saresk]

was it furies that chaos followers changed into, if they switched patron to often?

 

I read somewhere that people that kept changing their minds of which patron to follow, in the end lost all favour, and became a furie, as punishment for their lack of devotion. But i can be sorely mistaken.

This was how it used to be, but it's one of those dated, practically obsolete pieces A-D-B talked about.