The Commandments of Lorgar

[Xin Ceithan]

So, I`m posting this here as it seems the context is wide enough for all worshippers^^

 

I`ve been toying with the idea of playing a Word bearer character in an upcoming Black Crusade qame. I ve read the omnibus books and first heretic but I regrettably missed Aurelian,

I then stumbled uopn the fact that there seems to be little about what "worshipping chaos undivided" would mean to a single Word bearer. I`m not lookung for something like offering up skinned cats or something like that. I`m looking on advice on their mindset.

The old Index Astartes article is like saying "christianity is a monotheistic religion governed by a set of rules taken from the writings of their prophets". That`s very wide if you intent on portraying someone from that religion/ viewpoint. What I enjoy about roleplaying is "getting into someone`s head" so some details would be nice ( I have a good gasp of how a night lord would get into someone`s head-all those anatomy lessons pay off well^^).

I know there are some quotes of the books of lorgar around but has anybody seen something like a basic set of rules to guide a WB ? Something like the ten commandments or the code of the sith for example ?

While i enjoy twinking fluff to suit my characters / armies I like to at least base them on fluff in some way.....

Any help would be welcome.

[Hellrender]

I am not that well versed in the rules, but what i do know, is that the Word Bearers are arrogant. THEY are the ones of the true faith, THEY are the ones more worth then anybody else. Ofcourse this extends to Loyalists, which they hate. But even other CSM or Chaos worshippers are hold in their contempt if they only worship a specific deity. Only Undivided is the True Faith. I do think that if you have read the omnibus youve got a fairly good idea of how they are in their minds.

 

Good luck though, curious what others are going to say

[Kol Saresk]

Well, the old IA article isn't too far off. Just think of how varied the different sects of "Christiany" are. Think of the Word Bearers as Medieval-era Catholics and Byzantines(Greek Eastern Orthodox). Their way of worshipping Chaos is a somewhat stricter version. They follow certain practices, come together for mass and prayer, sing hymns and are ruled by a Priest caste(Dark Apostles) who are in turned ruled by a council of Priests(Or Cardinals to better help the analogy). Now, they do acknowledge that there are Four Gods(Primary Gods) and in turn ask each to aid them in their efforts as needed.(They start acting like Greco-Romans at this point) Some may pray to Khorne or Slaanesh for luck in battle. In the Second Word Bearers novel, recall how Marduk asked for a blessing from Tzeentch when he armed the bomb that would get them into the compound.

 

And that isn't the only way either because each Host is supposed to vary depending on the Apostle leading it. These are probably minor variations as they all follow the Word of Lorgar, but some will probably only obey certain parts, ignore others, take literal commands figuratively and figurative commands literally, as seen in virtually every religion.

 

Oh and about "Aurelian", you aren't exactly missing a lot. Not saying it was bad because I really liked it. But it was more of a "This why Actions A, B, and C happen", like how the Word Bearers were able to get the numbers to take the Ultramarines on even footing(Yes, the element of surprise wasn't actually needed) and when exactly to do it, why Lorgar shouldn't kill Gulliman and how to proceed with the Heresy so he could steer it towards the most favorable conclusion.

[Yogi]

The way i see it there is still a lot of diversity in a potential word bearer's mindset.

 

You have the obvious true believer who surrenders his fate to the will of the gods. The type that wants to experience communion with the gods. Possession, voices etc.. The level of his faith would determine how selfless he is in that regard.

 

Then you have the type that plays the game, may believe but looks out for number 1. This guy is in it for the unlimited powah! Ambition and desire to rise in rank. And is also most likely full of it. Like Xaphen.

 

Then you have the rock in the hard place types who just toe the line, says the words but doesn't care for the meaning.

 

And whatever else you want.

 

 

 

 

This guy asked a similar thing.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...=249004&hl=

[Xin Ceithan]

The Linky helped quite a bit. Thanks,

After reading First Heretic, I considred WBs a bit more tolerable of fellow worshippers - my gaming group `ll probably run an undivided campaign. Hence my current musings,

I am aware they are all fools and I am on the true path ;)

[Yogi]

Glad to be of assistance. Remember to read every fallen foe's entrails for signs and messages from the gods .. jk

[space wolf]

This is the way I see it. I will be using "you" as a point of reference, because we are talking about a character you would be playing.

 

You are right and no one in the Imperium will admit it. This makes them all deserving of hate for being infidels. The emperor IS a false god. You worship the true gods of the cosmos, and what you do in that worship isn't evil. It is only the nature of the universe. If the gods told you to torture 1000 children. Who are you to argue. Moreover what are those 1000 children to the rest of the universe. They are insignificant when compared to the dark gods. EVERYTHING is insignificant when compared to the dark gods. You are right, and the rest of the galaxy is wrong, and because of that, the galaxy will burn!

[Lepaca]

From reading First Heretic and Aurellian I also got the sense that the WBs would be very interessted in something like a symbiotic daemonic possession.

 

That's why every squad of my warband has a daemon attachted to it which will in turn possess every member of the squad, there by creating a strong bond between the squad members. The daemon absorbs some personality traits and memories from every host and when it moves on to another squad member some of these characteristics are passed on to the new host.

 

Furthermore the members of my warband believe that for every one of them there is a daemonic "soul mate" somewhere in the warp. A neverborn that is simply perfect for them. They believe that should they find this special entity and bond with it through possession the two of them will be elevated to a higher form of existence. Not simply mortal or daemon but something that is greater and better than both. (totally ripping of ADB here ;) ) Those marines that have found this perfect bonding partner tend to be my chosen.

 

So my advice would be: Your character might have a very positive attitude towards possession and might even be activly working towards it.

[Xin Ceithan]

So, I `m basically down to taking some quotes from the novels and Index astartes series....^^ Again thanks and the discussions on malal elsewhere helped also.

 

My current catch is having the character being on the Pilgrimage to further his understandings and maybe to get a broader view on chaos in all his forms 8 and some extra nasiness for some power games when he rejoins the legion ). Gives him a reason to be among other places and people. As it has ben said: travel narrows the mind wonderfully

[Dammeron]

I've always had a somewhat idiosyncratic view of the Word Bearers that very little of the current fiction seems to fulfil: for my money, they are dark evangelists in a very monastic vein; they are the bearers of the One Truth; all else in the universe is falsehood designed to obscure and distract from the ultimate reality of Chaos. I've never regarded them as "angry" or bitter as such; rather, I imagine them to take to the battlefield with a great deal of holy zeal, singing dark hymns, reciting catechisms, experiencing holy fits as the Warp spills through them. After all, they are not murdering, torturing and enslaving by their own perceptions; they are liberating, enlightening, delivering. Of course, each Host of the Word Bearers is different in terms of its outlooks and philosophies, depending entirely on the idiosyncrasies of their Dark Apostles and other war leaders. It's best to look at "real world" cults, churches, mythologies and religions to get a fairly good grip of how the Word Bearers operate; just look at how many offshoots and schisms the Abrahamic faiths experienced within their first centuries of proliferation. It's without doubt that Lorgar's faith has experienced similar upheavals throughout the ten millennia of its evolution, resulting in all manner of fractures, holy wars etc etc.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

It's without doubt that Lorgar's faith has experienced similar upheavals throughout the ten millennia of its evolution, resulting in all manner of fractures, holy wars etc etc.

 

All of which are ruthlessly purged, if Erebus is to be believed.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, they've yet to purge the Sanctified, so they obviously don't get all of them.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Well, they've yet to purge the Sanctified, so they obviously don't get all of them.

 

The Sanctified have also made it a point to avoid being anywhere near the Word Bearers, and given that their splintering occurred back during the Heresy and no others splinters (arguably this one was supposed to have died on Terra when they got abandoned there) have sprung up since, I'd say they're at best a fluke of circumstance.

[Dammeron]

It's without doubt that Lorgar's faith has experienced similar upheavals throughout the ten millennia of its evolution, resulting in all manner of fractures, holy wars etc etc.

 

All of which are ruthlessly purged, if Erebus is to be believed.

 

 

"If" being the key word. It's utterly absurd to believe that a body as large as the Word Bearers legion, operating as it does on the basis of visions, auguries and revelations hasn't experienced incredible fractures, schisms and exoduses over the millennia. Also, bear in mind, it is the nature of such structures to exercise incredible propaganda as a means of insulating itself from criticism or further internal unrest: it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the upper echelons of the Word Bearers are engaged in a constant battle of PR, attempting to suppress and silence any notion of dissent or deviance from the standard, or to eliminate those that have occurred in the past from history. As already mentioned, just look to "real life" analogues for examples: the various churches and traditions pervasive within Western culture have experienced so many upheavals in less than 2000 years, that there are literally thousands of different sects, offshoots and minor churches all of which profess to have the "correct" interpretation of a universal truth. The Word Bearers would be no different, and they've had ten thousand years or more, in a state of near perpetual conflict.

[Kol Saresk]

Not just on the West either. Look at Buddhism. There entire sects which worship Buddha as a god, something his teachings never even suggested, much less said.

 

There is also the possibility that if a significant portion of the Word Bearers broke off, say an entire Host, that instead of purging them, the Dark Council might just be happy with the Host recanting all ties to the WB as to save resources for a Dark Crusade rather then wasting them a purge that serves no real purpose except to weaken the Legion. That and if the civil unrest becomes large enough, the other Legions might notice and decide this is their chance to strike at the Word Bearers simply because they might never have the chance. Compromise might not always be as fun as crushing ruthlessly, but it does have its advantages.

[Dammeron]

Getting back on topic, I think the only true universal you'll find amongst forces of Word Bearers, and even between individual battle brothers, is an inclination towards ritual and dogmatism. Though there are no doubt any number of proscribed ceremonies, prayers, sermons etc, the manner in which the various authorities within Lorgar's faith choose to interpret them would necessarily vary, not to mention the various rites and traditions they'll have introduced as a matter of their own experiences and revelations. It's a fantastic opportunity to personalise your force outside of the parameters of the proscribed background; to write a mythology that may even inform some of the force's own, unique symbolism; recurrent conversions, paint scheme etc. Or maybe your force is excommunicate; operating outside of the proscriptions of Sicarius altogether. Maybe its leader(s) experienced revelations that conflict with those handed down by Lorgar and the Dark Apostles, leading them to conduct their own crusade or voyage of spiritual discovery. It's ultimately up to you.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

"If" being the key word. It's utterly absurd to believe that a body as large as the Word Bearers legion, operating as it does on the basis of visions, auguries and revelations hasn't experienced incredible fractures, schisms and exoduses over the millennia. Also, bear in mind, it is the nature of such structures to exercise incredible propaganda as a means of insulating itself from criticism or further internal unrest: it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the upper echelons of the Word Bearers are engaged in a constant battle of PR, attempting to suppress and silence any notion of dissent or deviance from the standard, or to eliminate those that have occurred in the past from history. As already mentioned, just look to "real life" analogues for examples: the various churches and traditions pervasive within Western culture have experienced so many upheavals in less than 2000 years, that there are literally thousands of different sects, offshoots and minor churches all of which profess to have the "correct" interpretation of a universal truth. The Word Bearers would be no different, and they've had ten thousand years or more, in a state of near perpetual conflict.

 

It's not absurd at all if speaking of the Word Bearers, if you take into account the revelation of their encoded "loyalty" to their Primarch and to the Word. I don't think the case could be made for any other Legion, but in the case of the Word Bearers it's perfectly within the realm of possibility that even the most ambitious Dark Apostle is going to balk at being an infidel. No branch of Christianity is preprogrammed to remain steadfast; the Word Bearers are. Using "real life" analogies in this case is, at best, insufficient as allegory. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the gods, and the Word was the gods, and all things were made by them and without them there was not anything made that was made." An absolute obedience to this implies that it would be unthinkable for them to consider any other path but the one outlined by Lorgar. All the visions, augeries and revelations they may have all lead back to this, not to an entirely new identity and an entirely new path. The example of the Sanctified is the only one available, and their existence is, as mentioned, a fluke accident, not something done by design. Erebus and Kor Phaeron's little power plays with each other notwithstanding, neither would have the umption to just strike out on their own no matter how the signs and portents persuaded them: they would still be Word Bearers, and they would still be following Lorgar's path. You might get a choice of the passenger seat or the back, but you're still in the same car. It doesn't change its make and model depending on where you put your butt.

 

I'd say it's a lesser suspension of belief to buy into there being more successor Chapters of Space Wolves than there are legitimate splinters of Word Bearers. It'd certainly be an easier sell.

[Dammeron]

"If" being the key word. It's utterly absurd to believe that a body as large as the Word Bearers legion, operating as it does on the basis of visions, auguries and revelations hasn't experienced incredible fractures, schisms and exoduses over the millennia. Also, bear in mind, it is the nature of such structures to exercise incredible propaganda as a means of insulating itself from criticism or further internal unrest: it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the upper echelons of the Word Bearers are engaged in a constant battle of PR, attempting to suppress and silence any notion of dissent or deviance from the standard, or to eliminate those that have occurred in the past from history. As already mentioned, just look to "real life" analogues for examples: the various churches and traditions pervasive within Western culture have experienced so many upheavals in less than 2000 years, that there are literally thousands of different sects, offshoots and minor churches all of which profess to have the "correct" interpretation of a universal truth. The Word Bearers would be no different, and they've had ten thousand years or more, in a state of near perpetual conflict.

 

It's not absurd at all if speaking of the Word Bearers, if you take into account the revelation of their encoded "loyalty" to their Primarch and to the Word. I don't think the case could be made for any other Legion, but in the case of the Word Bearers it's perfectly within the realm of possibility that even the most ambitious Dark Apostle is going to balk at being an infidel. No branch of Christianity is preprogrammed to remain steadfast; the Word Bearers are. Using "real life" analogies in this case is, at best, insufficient as allegory. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the gods, and the Word was the gods, and all things were made by them and without them there was not anything made that was made." An absolute obedience to this implies that it would be unthinkable for them to consider any other path but the one outlined by Lorgar. All the visions, augeries and revelations they may have all lead back to this, not to an entirely new identity and an entirely new path. The example of the Sanctified is the only one available, and their existence is, as mentioned, a fluke accident, not something done by design. Erebus and Kor Phaeron's little power plays with each other notwithstanding, neither would have the umption to just strike out on their own no matter how the signs and portents persuaded them: they would still be Word Bearers, and they would still be following Lorgar's path. You might get a choice of the passenger seat or the back, but you're still in the same car. It doesn't change its make and model depending on where you put your butt.

 

I'd say it's a lesser suspension of belief to buy into there being more successor Chapters of Space Wolves than there are legitimate splinters of Word Bearers. It'd certainly be an easier sell.

 

Given that the Word Bearers have already demonstrated a propensity to sway with the wind, as it were, the notion that they would experience upheavals and rifts through ten thousand years of revelations, visions, metaphysical fits, daemonic visitations and manipulations is far from outside of the realms of possibility. Consider: Lorgar and those who eventually became the Word Bearers were only too happy to put down (or "adapt") the old faith of Colchis when the Emperor offered something better, then, despite their fanaticism, were only too happy to abandon that manifestation of faith when it failed to provide what they wanted. The ingrained dogmatism of the Word Bearers doesn't necessarily manifest as mindless loyalty to any one ideology, but rather as a tendency to make or find dogma in whatever suits their needs. Again, whether they have a genetically ingrained tendency towards ritual observation or not, the notion that over ten thousand years a body so large as the Word Bearers wouldn't have experienced schisms and offshoots is absurd, regardless. This is compounded by the fact that they tend to operate on the basis of revelation and augury; systems of symbolic interpretation, meaning that conflict is inevitable. Given the impassioned, zealous nature of the Word Bearers as a whole, their general intolerance for what might be considered "blasphemy," the inevitable fact of differing interpretations would naturally result in conflict and potential schism. As for Lorgar and the upper echelons of the legion, even the systems they proscribe will inevitably be open to interpretation. It's not even outside the realms of conception that they actively foster such a status quo, since the resultant conflict would inevitably feed the entities they revere as divine.

 

With regards to the Sanctified, whether by design or not, we have a clear and established example here of how schisms and offshoots can occur. It is entirely possible that, within the ten thousand years Lorgar's particular faith has been evolving, other companies of Word Bearers have been accidentally cast adrift, either in the Warp, left behind on a battlefield, or deliberately led astray by the manipulations of capricious daemons.

 

As to whether or not there have ever been examples of dark apostles or religious leaders who have left the legion of their own accord or have been excommunicated, there is no actual background to state one way or the other. That's the point; it allows players a degree of freedom to establish their own particular histories and mythologies rather than imposing some minutely detailed, dogmatic restrictions upon them.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Given that the Word Bearers have already demonstrated a propensity to sway with the wind, as it were, the notion that they would experience upheavals and rifts through ten thousand years of revelations, visions, metaphysical fits, daemonic visitations and manipulations is far from outside of the realms of possibility. Consider: Lorgar and those who eventually became the Word Bearers were only too happy to put down (or "adapt") the old faith of Colchis when the Emperor offered something better, then, despite their fanaticism, were only too happy to abandon that manifestation of faith when it failed to provide what they wanted. The ingrained dogmatism of the Word Bearers doesn't necessarily manifest as mindless loyalty to any one ideology, but rather as a tendency to make or find dogma in whatever suits their needs. Again, whether they have a genetically ingrained tendency towards ritual observation or not, the notion that over ten thousand years a body so large as the Word Bearers wouldn't have experienced schisms and offshoots is absurd, regardless. This is compounded by the fact that they tend to operate on the basis of revelation and augury; systems of symbolic interpretation, meaning that conflict is inevitable. Given the impassioned, zealous nature of the Word Bearers as a whole, their general intolerance for what might be considered "blasphemy," the inevitable fact of differing interpretations would naturally result in conflict and potential schism. As for Lorgar and the upper echelons of the legion, even the systems they proscribe will inevitably be open to interpretation. It's not even outside the realms of conception that they actively foster such a status quo, since the resultant conflict would inevitably feed the entities they revere as divine.

 

And the common thread in your example as compared to now: Lorgar. They followed Lorgar into his faith in the Emperor, and followed Lorgar out of it. It doesn't have to manifest as mindless loyalty, it merely manifests as following in the footsteps of Lorgar. As long as Lorgar leads the Legion, the likelihood of anyone striking out on their own is improbable at best. Whether one Dark Apostle gets one interpretation and another gets a different one, neither change their colors because Lorgar is still around. They can butcher each other over their differing interpretations and both still remain Word Bearers: one just gets culled and the Faith strengthened by the removal of the weaker link. This was the whole point to Dark Creed, if you take out the Legion-wide chess game between Erebus and Kor Phaeron. Do schisms occur? Yes, probably undoubtedly. Is one allowed to perpetuate into a seperate warband? More than likely not.

 

 

As to whether or not there have ever been examples of dark apostles or religious leaders who have left the legion of their own accord or have been excommunicated, there is no actual background to state one way or the other. That's the point; it allows players a degree of freedom to establish their own particular histories and mythologies rather than imposing some minutely detailed, dogmatic restrictions upon them.

 

Because none have. We have evidence to show what happens to Dark Apostles who stray from the Legion. There's no system of excommunication that isn't spelled "d-e-a-t-h". So we have background to show the fate of those who have, unlike with virtually every other Legion/Chapter/what-have-you. That closes that door you perceive as being open. Like I said before, it's too hard a sell to be taken seriously given what we do know about internal Word Bearer policy.

[Kol Saresk]

I agree with both of you to some degree. The thing is, there are the Sanctified. Now, before Forgeworld, they simply missionaries of a sort that just didn't bother checking in with the main Legion during the retreat from Terra and just grew apart as a result into two separate entities. This was considered okay because while they were separate and apart, both groups still seemed to follow the same doctrine with the Sanctified simply acting like a traveling circus of missionaries for the most part. After Forgeworld, they became heavily Khorne-orientated. So far there has been no recorded conflict between the two groups. The Sanctified are ex-Word Bearers that the Word Bearers for one reason or another simply aren't "purging". There is still plenty of evidence, both GW and BL wise, that any individual that tries to leave the Word Bearers is hunted down. There has yet to be a group that has tried to leave. And I can say that because the Brotherhood mentioned in the Word Bearers series was simply trying to remove the Council of Sicarus, not leave the Legion. No censure was taken because the impression given was that it was something that happened quite often between Erebus and Kor Phaeron, despite the fact that civil war was practically unheard of within the Legion itself. So how it all works out, don't know, ask Forgeworld since they went radical on it. Ask GW since they invented the concept of a Word Bearers warband existing outside of the scope of the Legion.

[Hyaenidae]

I always assumed, in my wild-ass imagination, the Sanctified were a dumping ground for Word Bearers who had commited a minor crime against the Legion, and have perfered Khorne's path as they continue to wage a Crusade to redeem their 'purity', per se; kind of like the Sisters Repentia. Maybe even Dark Apostles walking amongst them, gunning down those whose faith has fallen too far.

 

Or perhaps they were a 'spiritual sacrifice' made by the greater Legion, an offering of Lorgars' flesh and blood to appease the Skull King after failing his aspect in some way. The Sanctified could be living out this failure in a physical sense, making right for what was wrong with sword-arm and vitrol, sactioned to exist by the council, but not spoken of due to shame.

 

 

Just saying, there are many possibilities why the Santified exist, and not all of them may represent them being rogue.

[Kol Saresk]

I just remember what GW used to have up about their "origins", a piece that has since disappeared from their website.

[Dammeron]

And the common thread in your example as compared to now: Lorgar. They followed Lorgar into his faith in the Emperor, and followed Lorgar out of it. It doesn't have to manifest as mindless loyalty, it merely manifests as following in the footsteps of Lorgar. As long as Lorgar leads the Legion, the likelihood of anyone striking out on their own is improbable at best. Whether one Dark Apostle gets one interpretation and another gets a different one, neither change their colors because Lorgar is still around. They can butcher each other over their differing interpretations and both still remain Word Bearers: one just gets culled and the Faith strengthened by the removal of the weaker link. This was the whole point to Dark Creed, if you take out the Legion-wide chess game between Erebus and Kor Phaeron. Do schisms occur? Yes, probably undoubtedly. Is one allowed to perpetuate into a seperate warband? More than likely not.

 

 

If we're looking to Black Library fiction as "evidence," we automatically have a problem; the BL fiction represents many diverse writer's differing interpretations of the established background, which itself is always changing and adapting in response to evolving circumstances and influences. Consider: within very recent publications, we have many varying and diverse interpretations of the Word Bearers legion and many other legions; in Battle for the Abyss, the Word Bearers are (fairly comic book), moustache-twirling super villains; in ADB's First Heretic, they are considered metaphysicians seeking meaning and poetry in a universe that seems pretty devoid of it. Later, in Anthony Reynold's Dark Apostle series, we have yet another interpretation. The problem with taking such sources as "canon" (if one chooses to do so) is that one is automatically going to come up against incredible conflicts in representation. This has already happened many times within the confines of the Horus Heresy series alone. The Space Wolves are a great example: in Battle for the Abyss, they are drunken, bellicose barbarians, in A Thousand Sons, intolerant, violent bigots, no better than animals, in Propsero Burns, noble savages; considered, measured, intelligent. The problem here is that one automatically gets to pick and choose what version of the background suits one's preconceptions of the legion, which is not necessarily a problem; it is as it should be.

 

For my money, the Dark Apostle series does not represent the Word Bearers terribly well. This is not to say that they "wrong;" it's somewhat difficult to be "wrong" in these circumstances, in that we are dealing with imaginary histories and mythologies whose nature is constantly shifting and changing to suit individual interpretation. The problem arises when one points to isolated examples of the BL fiction as "evidence" of an over arching background, since what you will be providing is always, always going to be another's interpretation that happens to chime with one's own.

 

Take, for example, ADB's First Heretic, the book which, for my money, portrays the Word Bearers most accurately, since it chimes with my personal preconceptions of the legion: in that book, we have clear and overt examples of not only members of the legion acting against Lorgar's wishes, but those which are marketed as the most faithful; the purveyors of the faith: Erebus and Kor Phaeron. It is made extremely clear within the book that they have been actively working against the wishes of Lorgar for some time, fomenting their own particular preconceptions of "truth" within the legion and manipulating Lorgar to a point whereby he could be used as a sort of figure head to promulgate it further. When Lorgar learns of this, he is initially furious. Here we have a clear example, within fiction, of the most faithful brothers of the Word Bearers acting against Lorgar's wishes in order to fulfil their own agendas; they are not mindlessly loyal to him, rather they regard him as a tool; something they must guide to a pre-ordained destiny.

 

The notion that, within ten thousand years or religious revelation, crusades, visions etc etc, other Word Bearers, both high ranking and otherwise, have not similarly experienced profound disagreement with their liege lord concerning their faith, or not necessarily with Lorgar, but with other members of the legion, is, as already stated, absurd.

 

As for utilising "real world" analogues, whether one wishes them to be pertinent to the discussion or not largely depends on one's bias; since the Word Bearers are clearly influenced and inspired by specific "real world" religious movements and structures, most notably the Crusades and other periods of genocidal intolerance, utilising "real world" analogues seems perfectly pertinent to me.

 

 

 

Because none have. We have evidence to show what happens to Dark Apostles who stray from the Legion. There's no system of excommunication that isn't spelled "d-e-a-t-h". So we have background to show the fate of those who have, unlike with virtually every other Legion/Chapter/what-have-you. That closes that door you perceive as being open. Like I said before, it's too hard a sell to be taken seriously given what we do know about internal Word Bearer policy.

 

 

According to your interpretation of the background. There is nothing outside of BL fiction to state one way or the other, and since, as already established, BL fiction provides many and varied interpretations of the background, one cannot consider it firm evidence if one is wishing to make a solid point concerning the established and enshrined dogma of the background. Outside of BL fiction, there is absolutely no statement one way or the other concerning offshoots, schisms, potential holy wars that might have wracked Sicarius etc etc. In that regard, the deliberate gaps in history can be filled with whatever one chooses, or whatever inspiration demands; that's the point of it; it means that the background is not closed to players who wish to develop a warband that has broken away from the legion as a whole. Whether the legion as a whole has a problem with its excommunicate brothers or not is incidental; maybe it does expend incredible resources attempting to hunt them down or exterminate them. This does not mean such warbands do not still exist in the vastness of the Eye of Terror or the material universe. If anything, the notion of a heretical band of Word Bearers who have managed to thus far escape the retribution of the main legion would make a fantastic dynamic for an army, since one could have them perpetually on the run, seeking protection in other warbands against the predations of their former brothers.

 

Also:

 

With regards to the Sanctified, whether by design or not, we have a clear and established example here of how schisms and offshoots can occur. It is entirely possible that, within the ten thousand years Lorgar's particular faith has been evolving, other companies of Word Bearers have been accidentally cast adrift, either in the Warp, left behind on a battlefield, or deliberately led astray by the manipulations of capricious daemons.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Not going to turn this into a quote barrage.

 

So according to you, the BL is no longer a source of canonical information because of disparity in writing styles of authors. . .okay, well, that removes FW from being canonical as well, as its writing staff isn't the same as who generates canon for GW nor do they use one individual author for their fluff, so the Sanctified don't actually exist in established canon. That erases the only distinct and unauthorized branch-off of the Word Bearers that has ever existed in the fluff, so now we're back to the original point: no one leaves the Word Bearers. Since GW has never bothered to display an actual Word Bearers offshoot from their own pens (with the Foresworn and the Sons of Damnation being authorized Hosts allowed to act autonomously by Lorgar himself), then there aren't any offshoots and never have been.

 

Perspectives do differ, but neither Erebus nor Kor Phaeron have left the Word Bearers despite whatever misgivings or disagreements they may have with Lorgar, and they would have been in the best position to (especially Erebus). In fact, post-Aurelian, I doubt either would have even dared try. If the two most powerful members of the Word Bearers have stuck it out with Lorgar since the beginning and remain subservient to him, then it stands to reason those two would not only serve as physical reminders that the will of Lorgar isn't to be disobeyed, but would also take whatever measures necessary to quash any and all who would even try. Profound disagreement =/= take my toys, change my paint and leave. Using the Sanctified as your one and only prop, a 10,000-year old one that wasn't supposed to have survived in the first place and certainly wasn't sanctioned, isn't evidence at all. The "My Dark Apostle didn't like Erebus so he took his Host and left" isn't going to fly in the face of a Legion so grounded in their Faith that any notion of recidivism or schismatic leanings is promptly eradicated by the Council of Sicarus.

 

You like real world analogies, it's pretty obvious that Crusade-era Christianity isn't what the Word was designed around. . .Islam, however, characterized by fanatical belief and a pathological hatred for anything that might be interpreted as heretical or recidivist, definitely fits the bill. The Warp is the one true Word, and Lorgar is its Prophet. No matter how deep the doctrinal schism between Sunni and Shi'a, they both acknowledge that there's only one Faith, and their disagreement isn't even based within their Faith but rather in who should be leading the faith here on Earth. With the Word Bearers, it's an even greater strength in Faith because, well, their Muhammad isn't dead and is, in fact, still writing doctrine. In light of that, it gives even more reason why, no matter the signs and portents, no one would jump at the chance to declare themselves independant of the Word Bearers: it's still the same Word, with the same Prophet, coming from the same font of knowledge and inked by the very hand that implanted their Faith into themselves.

 

Given the tremendous pressure, both internally and externally, to keep the Faith, and with what evidence we do possess (from all potential sources), I'm reasonably certain that the statement that "no one leaves the Word Bearers" is categorically true and that no splinters not sanctioned by Lorgar himself or by the Council of Sicarus exist. The only crack in the door that would allow for it are sanctioned by the Word Bearers to operate independantly, but they're still keeping that same Faith and are, by creed and belief, still Word Bearers. That, I believe, was GW's intent for the allowance of Word Bearer successor warbands, as opposed to militant breakaways or exiles as found in other Legions; it provides modellers opportunity to make their "Dark Apostle"-led armies and provides another vital facet to the internal makeup of the Word Bearers themselves as a standalone Legion apart from even the other Traitor Legions.

[A D-B]

If the two most powerful members of the Word Bearers have stuck it out with Lorgar since the beginning and remain subservient to him, then it stands to reason those two would not only serve as physical reminders that the will of Lorgar isn't to be disobeyed, but would also take whatever measures necessary to quash any and all who would even try.

 

Dude. No way.

 

I mean... you put any army/cult in an eternity of hell, spread over countless planets, wars and raids... you're going to get fractures. Serious fractures.

 

Given the tremendous pressure, both internally and externally, to keep the Faith, and with what evidence we do possess (from all potential sources), I'm reasonably certain that the statement that "no one leaves the Word Bearers" is categorically true and that no splinters not sanctioned by Lorgar himself or by the Council of Sicarus exist. The only crack in the door that would allow for it are sanctioned by the Word Bearers to operate independantly, but they're still keeping that same Faith and are, by creed and belief, still Word Bearers. That, I believe, was GW's intent for the allowance of Word Bearer successor warbands, as opposed to militant breakaways or exiles as found in other Legions; it provides modellers opportunity to make their "Dark Apostle"-led armies and provides another vital facet to the internal makeup of the Word Bearers themselves as a standalone Legion apart from even the other Traitor Legions.

 

I think we differ here, massively. From the way I see 40K and the Eye of Terror (which is no more or less valid than your angle, but definitely more different than I realised) there's literally no way that can be true. Every Legion has fragmented to some degree. The Word Bearers may be (relatively) better organised, but there'll still be countless Marines out there who were once Word Bearers and abandoned their faith, or turned to a wildly divergent form of worship, or simply loathe too many other warbands in their Legion and have cast off the colours.

 

Of course, there'll also be countless warbands who are largely independent, ignore the rest of the Legion, yet are still Word Bearers. Or Word Bearers that fight other Word Bearer warbands, and beat the snot out of them in eternal grudge matches. They're still Word Bearers, too.

 

That's just the nature of Chaos Marines. But there's also room for much more.

 

This is where loose canon is a good thing. I think I've got a pretty good grasp on the Word Bearers, and I just categorically can't see that being true. It's too small-scale, too limited, and much, much too neat. It doesn't take into account all the nuance and variables. I'm sure countless warlords, commanders, apostles and sorcerers have cut and run, either chased by the loyal Word Bearers or simply ignored because the Word Bearers don't much care. I wouldn't want to speak for the Legion's leadership, but I can hazard a guess of its attributable defections and exiles over the course of 10,000 years, given how Chaos Marines work as a "society" and how the Eye of Terror functions as a place to live.