Alternate Arch-Betrayers?

[Astus]

As the title above says, which Primarchs do you think could lead a rebellion against the Imperium INSTEAD of Horus, Dorn, Guilliman, or Sanguinius?

I mention them, becuase in the standard universe, and alternate universes created by other users, these Primarchs are the titular traitors.

 

So, who do you guys think could become the Arch-Betrayer, if were it?

 

The Promethean

[Aegnor]

Besides those four? Magnus, Ferrus or Lorgar. Ferrus would have found it less easy to sway the Legions to him, but I think he could have led a decent chunk of the Mechanicus and its Empire to rise up against the Imperium, and the leverage that control of the forge worlds etc provides might have been enough to persuade some already disgruntled legions. The ruthlessness of the Iron Hands could also have appealed to guys like Kurze, Angron, and Mortarion who chafed at the restraints the Imperium put on them.

 

Magnus - if he had gone properly evil earlier, and shown the kind of patience Lorgar did, he could have potentially avoided the Council of Nikea, and used his immense powers and knowledge to manipulate the situation around to his end. The timeline would have been different.

 

Same with Lorgar. He was looked down upon by his brothers to a degree up until Isstvan. But if the hardening of his personality and his faith in his course had had more time to 'settle', he was an unparalleled orator and propagandist, as well as a stone-cold manipulative bastard. He could have played the political game himself and set himself up as the champion of Chaos, had Horus not provided an obvious "better" alternative for the cause. Again, the timeline would have been a fair bit different.

 

And those differences in the timeline are why the Chaos Gods didn't go down those paths in the end (along with the fact that Ferrus, for one, may not have gone alone with it). Chaos was under time pressure to act before the Emperor completed his work with the Webway - after that the degree of difficulty for them to disrupt and try to destroy the Emperor would have become exponentially harder (for instance, they wouldn't have been able to shut down galactic transport like they did during much of the Heresy through warp storms, and humanity would have had a 'safe refuge' in the webway itself).

[Astus]

Aegnor, your idea of Ferrus Manus rebelling sounds like a great one.

Think of an Imperium without the Mechanicus, constantly at war with Chaos and the Empire of the Omnissiah ( or something similar). Maybe Ferrus joined the Mechanicum in worshipping the Omnissiah, ultimately declaring the Emperor to be a false Omnissiah, then seceding from the Imperium.

 

Personally, I don't see Lorgar being able to recruit many Legions on his own. Most of brothers didn't think highly of him.

 

The Promethean

[Astus]

Don't know exactly how I did it, but not only did I accidentally put up two extra posts, but I somehow doubled the text on the second one. :)

Any Moderators passing by, please delete both of these extra posts.

 

The Promethean

[Astus]

See above ^

 

The Promethean

[Aegnor]

Cheers

 

Cheers

 

Cheers

 

Cheers

 

:)

[Aegnor]

Many of the Primarchs doubted the Lorgar they knew in the lead up to Monarchia and its aftermath. The Lorgar who emerged after that is a very different beast. Given time, I think he could have changed perceptions. Probably helped to a degree by his brothers underestimating him - eg I can see Fulgrim, Magnus or even Angron agreeing to work with him thinking they can control him not understanding the creature he is.

[Brother Nihm]

Curze would have been too unstable I reckon, but let us say if he sparked the initial rebellion (which he did in outdated lore), then someone with better; shall we say, people skills and overall grasp of command and subversive tactics - could jump in and use his actions as a springboard for a full blown coup.

 

Say - someone like Fulgrim, Alpha/Omeg (pre-cabal), or The Lion.

[Aegnor]

It's interesting that while a lot is made of Horus's popularity as a reason why he was able to turn so many primarchs, I'm not really sure with the expanded fluff we now have, whether there are ANY instances of mere affection for Horus being enough to sway any legions (beyond his own). They all had reasons to swap sides. No doubt Horus was more effective because of the respect he was held in, and because of his skills in manipulating people, but the actual pre-existing relationship seems less inportant.

 

Lorgar - his turn predates Horus.

Fulgrim - was already walking down the path to Slaanesh.

Angron - was already angry at the Emperor and his (perceived) hypocrisy. Respected Horus more, but may have respected other "tough" primarchs equally.

Montarion - maybe it was Horus's personality initially? The forced conversion to Nurgle came later.

Perterabo - manipulated over the Olympia situation and anger at Emperor/Dorn, into siding with Horus. Again, it wasn't so much a special bond with Horus.

Alpharius Omegon - this has changed. It was previously entirely due to the respect Alpharius had for Horus, but now it's anything but.

Kurze - another case of "anyone but the Emperor" more than "I love Horus".

Magnus - respected Horus, but another case of "anyone but the Emperor AND Russ".

 

So really, it's only the Death Guard that I can see where Horus's charisma was the potential main cause of their (initial) swap.

[Olis]

Montarion - maybe it was Horus's personality initially? The forced conversion to Nurgle came later.

 

Played Baldur's Gate 2 recently? :)

 

 

Personally I feel that the best candidates boil down to those already being explored, because of their impact, or potential impact, with their kin and the Imperium. An interesting thought, though, would be a heresy instigated by Alpharius/Omegon (for whatever reason)...

[Aegnor]

Always get that spelling wrong. Then second guess myself.

[Olis]

Always get that spelling wrong. Then second guess myself.

 

Way back when I taught myself Mort meant death, so Mortarion led the Death Guard. Hope that helps. ;)

[Ubermensch Commander]

Ah, well played removing the titular 4.

 

Hmm well, much of other Primarchs becoming Arch-Betrayer requires a decidedly different series of events leading to the Heresy.

But lets take a look at the Primarch's capabilities, assuming more or less standard 40K personality base, rather than presupposing initial Dornian Heresy alterations.

 

 

Lorgar- Ah. Weakling. Fool. Mad. Certainly the opinion many of his brothers had of him prior to the Heresy. Yet, after Monarchia and his pilgrimage, had he played his hands a bit subtler, Lorgar might have been able to lead a Heresy. The difficult part would be in ensuring the cooperation of his fellow primarch and getting them to actually OBEY him long enough to achieve anything more than an alliance rent in a spasm of self destruction. If Lorgar had played the "dutiful son" a tad more carefully, providing evidence of demonic Thousand Sons practices or similar corruption in a Legion and then "mercifully" (either saving a Legion he can sway to his side or after the destruction/weakening of one of this enemies - Imagine discrediting the Sons of Guilliman, forcing them to give up so much of their hard won empire to prove their loyalty.) offering to provide increased surveillance through "Chaplain Chapters" spread throughout the Legions to safeguard against further corruption, the Word Bearers remain in key positions to betray their brothers. Since Lorgar almost would never be appointed Warmaster, turning a new leaf or not he is still not lauded as highly as many of his brothers, this remains one of the few viable paths to spread influence amongst the other Legions and preparing the way for a full scale rebellion.

 

Kurze - Hmm. Tough One. As it stands, not a chance. Kurze is simply too unstable to lead a tenuous alliance of fractious superbeings. Yet, if one day Kurze were to go so mad he were to become luminous, perhaps through a little Chaos nudging or an ill conceived and desperate bid to calm his mind as he sees himself and his Legion slide into corruption (Thanks, scummy home-planet for those murderers and thugs to fill out the ranks XD), he would become a dark beacon of light, the counterpoint to a Sanguinary Heresy. Charismatic, messianic, focused. Spinning rhetoric of "purging a corrupt Imperium" Kurze could play to the wounded egos and smoldering discontent of Lorgar, Angron, Mortarion, and Perturabo. With a little work, might even convince Ferrus Manus (or at least a chunk of his Legion) to turn in order to create a "stronger Imperium."

 

Fulgrim - Ah, if the Pheonician truly had risen from the flames, mastering the sword rather than becoming its puppet, what then? Awakened to the true nature of Chaos, seeking "perfection" through the aspects of the Chaos Gods and receiving their many gifts, Fulgrim could have been a master statesman, orator, and commander, winning over to his side various Legions whether by simply playing on their long standing grudges or playing his long standing friendships by giving daemonically corrupted"gifts" to his brother Primarchs as a twisted mirror of the true tokens of respect and brotherhood exchanged by Fulgrim and Manus.

 

Angron - Yeesh. The only manner I see him leading is a situation similar to Kurze. The Chaos Gods quiet his rage implants, he somehow becomes a master everything to win over trust to get into a position to launch a successful rebellion. Angron as part of any rebellion? Easy to see. Leading it? A tad more difficult.

 

Alpharius - Eh. Leading a rebellion simply is not much his style. I also do not see him having enough clout with the other Legions to lead any rebellion. Power behind the throne? Perhaps...but again unlikely as that would mean submitting to Chaos to gain divine favor to get the others to fall in line. Certainly could not blackmail the Primarches into going along with any rebellion.

 

Perturabo/Mortarion - As with Angron, easy to see them on board for rebellion, less likely to see them leading it. They simply do not have the skills necessary to organize and lead a group as fractious as the rebel Primarchs. Simply put, neither of them are a "people person."

 

Ferrus Manus - Yknow, lets just stick with Aegnor's version. :lol: Throw in some corrupting items ala the Fulgrim scenario and there ya go. As for what precipitated his fall = Growing dissatisfaction, possibly helped along by whispers in his ear, with the "weakness" of the Imperium. I mean heck, the Emperor had to put Horus in charge because he is growing old, weak, and cowardly. He is placing weak men in charge. This dying Imperium is no place for the strong.

 

Vulkan - I love the Salamanders and their humanistic Primarch but I find it difficult to see them leading a rebellion. On board with one proclaiming a humanistic message ala a Sanguinary Heresy, sure, and acting as a mediator (calmly smoothing ruffled feathers and easing over conflicts amongst competing egos) or right hand but the very qualities ("Any man who values life over pride is worthy of my service") that make him what he is also hampers his Arch-Betrayer cred.

Only if he were fired up, sure in the rightness of his own cause to overthrow the uncaring despot that is the Emperor, could he even be placed in charge. Amp up the charisma a bit with some Chaosy stuff and he could be a potential Arch-Betrayer. Could certainly do it sneaky style, who would ever expect VULKAN to backstab them?

 

Corax - A scenario akin to Vulkan would be necessary. Assured of the rightness of his crusade to ovethrow a tyrant would be the only scenario I see Corax turning of his own volition. Manipulation by Daemon weapons does not count and moves one right from Arch-Btrayer status to puppet-on-strings column.

 

Khan - Um....really at a loss. Do not see him as leading a full scale galactic rebellion. Some White Scars fans want to help a frater out?

 

Leman Russ - Arch-Betrayer? I suppose, but getting it to go beyond him and possibly Angron is something I have a hard time seeing. The only motivation for turning would be a Ferrus Manus style deal, being sickened by the perceived corruption and weakness in the Imperium. But his own exaggerated image as a bellicose barbarian would work against him in his dealings with other Primarchs and certainly any of the non-Legionary factions.

 

The Lion - Ego, preservation of his planet/Legion (keep that demonic secret safe!), corruption by the secrets found on Caliban all serve as routes to Arch-Traitordom. Honestly, I could see a slow corruption and pilgrimage sparked by what the Lion found on Caliban and in the archives of the Knights of Lupus. These cosmic blasphemies inciting his search for more forbidden knowledge throughout the cosmos, the Lion's paranoia causing him to wonder what else the Emperor is hiding with his message of secular truth. Difficult to see the Lion muster up the Charisma to win folks to his side, but we saw him try mustering Warmaster support at the end of "Savage Weapons."

All these shenanigans opens up the door for Lorgar style pilgrimage and corruption, possibly with Luther filling in as Erebus. That or Luther, seeing his friend descend into literal madness ("Hey buddy, haven't seen you in the better part of a century, little concerned with the messages of "Let the Galaxy Burn" and "Blood for the Blood God" being passed around on Legion channels. I am sure everything will be made clear upon your return to Caliban. Your pal, Luther.") decides to Dark Angel schism it up in reverse, leading his "Grey Knights" against the traitors wherever they may be found.

 

Magnus the Red - A divisive figure to be sure. Again, if he had "mastered" the forces that sought to manipulate his destiny (the great irony, as with the original verse, being that he willfully bind himself to their puppet strings) and rose to master their arts, he could seek to supplant his father. Is not his vision clearer? Is not his father's light dimming? Has he not gazed at the heart of creation and beheld its secret truths? A new, luminous Imperium must forged, with the Red Cycops as the New Emperor. So we have ego as motivation and power to back it up, but I am not sure how many Legions he could get on his side. Space Wolves are right out. Night Lords probably recoil at the "corruption." Mortarion, barring a "stranded in warp and Nurgled up against his will" scenario, is certainly not on board. Sanguinius (in a massively out of character move) could be swayed to his brother's side if Magnus "foresaw" the destruction of the Legion due to their Red Thirst and offered a cure. Lorgar - Already packed and ready to go. XD Angron - Sure, maybe. And so on and so forth. It would take a lot of finagling to fit Magnus leading a SUCCESSFUL rebellion. But yeah, he could be Arch-Betrayer and fully signed up with the Chaos Gods easy. Pride and arrogance. He fell in the regular universe due to "having everything under control" it makes sense it could happen on a grander scale.

 

I think that covers all the Legions.

[Conn Eremon]

I think it wouldn't just have to do with the who, but the how. I believe that the 'titular four,' as someone mentioned, are the more commonly used Arch-Betrayers because they're the ones that can create a Heresy most like the canon one. Others might come close, like Lorgar or Ferrus/Perturabo, but even with them the dynamics of the Heresy would be dramatically different. With Lorgar, it'd be political maneuvering degrading into a full-blown religious crusade. With Ferrus or Perturabo, it'd be less about gaining support among the Legions and more about gaining support among the Mechanicum. We'd have a Tech-Heresy with those two.

 

With the others, it'd be the same, in that they'd all be completely different on how their Heresies play out. There wouldn't be a Civil War, there'd be an Uprising, a Coup, Guerrilla War, an Assassination. Angron can initiate an uprising, but never a civil war. Corax would lead his Legion and whoever would follow them into guerrila warfare on a galactic scale. The Alpha Legion would create a Cold War, while the Night Lords might attempt an assassination. Aside from those, however, I think the bulk of the Primarchs, if they were the Arch-Betrayers, would simply attempt a straight-forward coup. How they'd go about it would be intensely unique, though. Fulgrim I could see using propaganda like Lorgar though more political than religious, flaunting the Emperor's imperfections to the greater Imperium, while Magnus would be using the sorcerous powers at his command, whether his own or those beholden to him, to glamour his way to the top.

 

I think the idea of who could be the Arch-Betrayer is less interesting than exploring how his Heresy would happen.

[Olis]

I think the idea of who could be the Arch-Betrayer is less interesting than exploring how his Heresy would happen.

 

Bingo. Not who, but how. And then you could consider integral fluff alterations prior to the actual Heresy, involving primarch origin fluff - which not only changes the dynamic of the Primarch brotherhood but would have a butterfly effect that ripples a long, long way. ;)

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I like the idea of Pertuabo, he was highly intelligent, cold and logical, he could of best devised a strategy to turn his brothers on each other by using their worhtless 'feelings' upon one another.

 

The way I'd accomplish this is by him instead of hating his childhood father (the adoptive warlord the tyrant of lochos who found him) he created s strong bond with him instead, now i'd fabricate a personality for this tyrant based upon the lines of ruthless intelligence and violently clinical styles of warfare, thus meaning Pertuabo only felt loved when he was living up to his false fathers expectations, when the Emperor arrived he was disgusted by this tyrants actions and struck him down, only to be attacked by Pertuabo, bested in one on one combat Pertuabo mind clearly forulates a plot to bring down the Big E using his own grand intelligence, with his false father dead and now any capacity for love gone he saw his father as weak and lavished upon the opportunity to be supplied with a grand army of his own gene warriors, a gift given to him which he can now use against the very fool who gifted it upon him, for years Pertuabo would work, garrisoning planets, gladly accepting any chance to fortify worlds close to Earth or surrounding 'allied astaree forces' to create an 'Iron noose'

 

Now heres the curve ball, in the discussion where Dorn answers honestly to a question in which who would win in their field of expertise if it came to it, Dorn holding out against a siege of Pertuabo's, when Dorn answers 'Yes' Pertuabo does not fly into a rage, instead he indulges his brother and submits, this creating a 'bond between them' this is actually just a chance for Pertuabo to best gain honest insight into any weaknesses his forces may have and to befriend Dorn so he can better use him as a Pawn, in series of campaigns in which Dorn and Pertuabo fight together (new fabricated campaigns of course) They become known as the 'Sheild and Sledgehammer' of the imperium, capitalising upon Dorns ties with Sanguinius and Horus, Pertuabo offers his forces in advisory roles with regards to siege warefare, after a 'mistake' is made in which bombardment of a planet goes ahead overseen by the World Eaters (after Horus conveniences Angron to employ Pertuabos siege advisors in a particularly tricky campaign against a resilient enemy) an imperial outpost on the world is ahniliated killing thousands of inocent citizens, with the high lords of Terra demanding the forces responsible hand themselves over the seeds of discord are sown, the World Eaters refusing to hand over their own warriors insist it is a fault of the Iron Warrior advisors, when Angron pushes this argument he is simply ignored, as Pertuabo is defended by Dorn, after Dorn claims after fighting extensively with the Iron warriors that they would be too calculated to let such a mistake happen, and that it was the World Eaters and their reckless diregard for non astartee life that are to pay the price.

 

With the ball rolling Angron goes Awol and heads to confront Pertuabo, Meanwhile Pertuabo has been secretly researching warp travel (in an attempt to better position his forces in key points throughout the galaxy) and is on the brink of creating a new fool proof way of creating safe an effective means of travelling through the warp, unscaved and transverse the galaxy in a matter of seconds, it is here he is subject to the Warp, in an experiment (Kinda like the giant hadron collider in switzerland) were warp energy is being subject and 'trapped in real space' the chaos gods intervien, tearing open the fabric of reality and showing Pertuabo visions of what he could become with their help, now a champion of Chaos Pertuabo is confrontd by Angron and in a one to one epic battle and with his new warp fuled abilities Pertuabo bests Angron, claiming that Angron is a wild beast he chains him up and sends him to Terra to await punishment for his crimes, meanwhile tho Pertuabo petitions Dorn that his legion be spared and placed under Pertuabos command as his astartee forces are far to valuable, this is actually a coy how ever, as Pertuabo mearly wished to use The world Eaters to his own end, re wiring their neural implant and turning them into blood crazed killers he now submits the World Eaters on their path of damnation in the servitude of Khorn.

 

(More to come)

 

:tehe:

[Aegnor]

Would be interesting to imagine a Heresy where it was the more humane, rational primarchs were the ones that broke away. Sanguinius leading it, Vulkan, Corax, Guilliman as the core, with guys like Magnus, Horus, Alpharius, and the Khan coming aboard as well. Disgust at the use of guys like Curze and Angron on human enemies. The establishment of totalitarian elements like Malcador's proto-Inquisition, and harsh purity controls. Without understanding the threat of Chaos, these guys are appalled by the Emperor's seeming bloodthirstiness, and his empowerment of corrupt politicians, and think they will better uphold the principles of rationality and stability in the empire they conquered.

[Kol Saresk]

I would say any of them for this reason and this reason alone: There is no absolute guarantee that an alternate universe will play out the same as this one. In an alternate universe, Angron could become a Caesar instead of a Maximus. Curze could be sane with no farsight. Sanguinius might not have wings. Horus may be the last Primarch to be found while Alpharius was first. Russ might be a renaissance man and Fulgrim might a barbarian. It can all go so many different ways that this universe may only be a basis for those characters to exist, but not how they exist.

[Bewlay]

I like the idea of Pertuabo, he was highly intelligent, cold and logical, he could of best devised a strategy to turn his brothers on each other by using their worhtless 'feelings' upon one another.

 

I second Pertuabo, I think out of all the Primarchs he was the one who was the most hateful.

 

Angron had the nails and as a result was watched closely, he knew his anger was enhanced by the implants and therefore could justify any hate he had toward the Emperor and his brothers, sort of how people control themselves when being mocked.

 

Cruze on the other hand dealt with the split personalities, one being Cruze and the other Night Haunter, I don't think Cruze could lead the heresy because he would be so internally conflicted that he would let himself up (in the same manner as what actually happened).

 

Lorger IMO wouldn't get the support, the other Primarchs agreed that the Emperor wasn't a god and that Lorger wasn't making progress, why would you join a heresy when you have no reason to change.

 

Pertuabo however was known for his logic and planning, with anger built up on from his bitterness toward the way both he and his legion was treated, and also he was part of what I call 'the rejected trio' he, Mortarion and Cruze (and possible Alpharius) were always underestimation and never seemed to get any respect (although this is sort of speculation). With these traits I could see Pertuabo getting the support of Mortarion, Cruze and Angron, and possible even Alpharius, Lorger, Ferrus and Magnus.

The problem is, firstly Pertuabo wasn't the most sociable and was known for being a cold git, so that's charisma gone, his legion was split up in garrisons across the Imperium, it could be an advantage but generally I don't think his force would be formidable enough and finally because of his rivalry between Dorn most Primarchs would see it as petty revenge and therefore even less support.

 

So although I think Pertuabo would turn eventually, I don't think he could hold together a full heresy.

[dustermaker]

I could see the Lion starting a Heresy, he had a pretty big ego and wanted to be Warmaster very much. The main problem with him is not many Primarch's like him. Even in the normal timeline he "cleansed" his legion....

[Astus]

Thanks for all replies everyone, a lot of interesting ideas flying around, as a self-confessed Iron Warriors fan (well, at least now :)) I'm liking the concept of Perturabo becoming the Arch-Betrayer.

 

Just as aside, feel free to post your ideas for non-Chaos Arch-Betrayers too (a la Sanguinarian Heresy). Like I suggested above, imagine a universe where Ferrus led a rebellion including the Mechanicum, which means that the Mechanicum isn't part of the Imperium.

 

The Promethean

[RapatoR]

I would say any of them for this reason and this reason alone: There is no absolute guarantee that an alternate universe will play out the same as this one. In an alternate universe, Angron could become a Caesar instead of a Maximus. Curze could be sane with no farsight. Sanguinius might not have wings. Horus may be the last Primarch to be found while Alpharius was first. Russ might be a renaissance man and Fulgrim might a barbarian. It can all go so many different ways that this universe may only be a basis for those characters to exist, but not how they exist.

This.

Imagine how differently universe would look if Magnus and Angron swapped their planets. Can you imagine how gladiator Magnus with Butchers Nails would turn out (unstable raging psyker or something else)? Or Angron on the Prospero (freak with two eyes that is psychic null)?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Nothing's ever stated that Angron is a Null.

[Conn Eremon]

Nothing's ever stated that Angron is a Null.

 

This is true, but he might be going in a good direction with that. No, he's not a Null. But he is anti-psyker in a lot of ways. That might have been just Khorne's influence on him, or it could have been something ingrained within him, like Leman Russ' own hatred for psykers (please no arguments on Space Wolf psyker contradictions). I'm not exactly sure how or when he became that way.

 

But what if it was an aspect of his personality from the very beginning? Something that would have stayed even if he had landed on a psyker world like Prospero? He probably would have led a rebellion much like what we saw on De'shea (or whatever his canon homeworld is called). A massive, brutal uprising that is essentially the bloody slaughter of all who oppose him. Psykers, in this case. And like on De'shea, his opponents might be too vast and powerful for even him and his faction to win against. So Angron might turn out a lot like he already is, minus the bizarro anger-management chips.

 

So imagine a berserk Angron who hates psykers meeting a berzerk brother Primarch who is a psyker? Foul things would be hitting fans all across the galaxy, I'm sure.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I Couldnt promote Angron as a warmaster though, hes brutal vicious and evil, unless fluff went different with him and he lost his implats, gained rationality but kept the sense of murderous aggression which he could turn on and of when he wanted.