Word bearers and sorcerers?

[ironbear]

Word bearers can take sorcerers right???

 

Just starting out on my tainted journey, after years of wolves and grey knights

Just started to read the word bearers ombnibus

 

But I have just spent the evening converting the dark vengeance libby guy into a chaos sorcerer

 

Now hoping that it's kind of fluffy!!

[pingo]

Very fluffy!

 

Two of the most (in)famous Word Bearers, Kor Phaeron and Erebus, are basically sorcerers.

[Kol Saresk]

It's kind of one of those answers where you say "No." but nod your head "Yes." The reason why is because all of their "holy men" are basically sorcerers but they do not call them sorcerers. In fact, for some reason they look down on those known as sorcerers, or at least that is the impression the Word Bearers series gave off. I think what it comes down to is the whole Psykers vs. Sorcerers argument, which I'd be lying if I said that I understand it. All I can say is that Psykers are those who were born or developed(I guess the Word Bearers would say "blessed with") a connection to the warp while sorcery is a connection that is made by demon pacts and other similar methods.

 

EDIT: I also forgot to mention that the Word Bearers' apparent dislike of sorcerers is also mentioned in Daemonworld by Ben Counter.

[totgeboren]

I often field a Sorcerer for my WB (that is background-wise a sorcerer, not just a count-as). It is true that the WB generally have a somewhat low view of Sorcerers, feeling that they do not interact with the warp in a proper way. They also have much less need of the aid of Sorcerers compared to other legions and warbands, as between their Possessed and Dark Apostles they can do most if not all of the utility functions that Sorcerers usually perform (things like ship navigation, locating enemy psychers, predicting the future, things like that).

 

However, this only tells us that Sorcerers don't have a very prominent role, which they tend to have in most other legion. Not that the WB are completely lacking in psychers.

 

My Sorcerer and Dark Apostle have a long and quite successful relation, as the Sorcerer could never be considered for the role of Dark Apostle this tends to lessen the amount of distrust between the two. The Dark Apostle is the boss, and the sorcerer is his advisor, and that is that.

 

Having a Sorcerer (not a Sorcerer who counts-as a Dark Apostle, but a proper Sorcerer) as the overall leader of a WB warband would be quite out of character (as they are lead by Dark Apostles, and I don't think a Sorcerer could become a Dark Apostle). However, having your 40k army being lead by a Sorcerer is entirely ok.

 

Lets say that the Dark Apostle tells the local Sorcerer "I need you to take item/position X and commence ritual Y whilst I do Z. You have coteries A to E at your disposal.", you now have a 40k WB warband being lead by a Sorcerer.

[Bearingtheword]

I think Kol and Tot hit the nails pretty square on the head.

 

I run my Dark Apostle as a sorc in game terms, but essentially in fluff he is warp blessed by the Gods...

 

I don't see them as being adverse to sorcerors in general, but to those from other legions/warbands specifically.

 

Remember, it ultimately comes down to your warband, and your own tastes. If you want one, use one. :(

 

~BtW

[Dammeron]

It doesn't make a great deal of sense that the Word Bearers would have anything against Sorcerers; sorcery is a direct means of interacting with the Warp and its entities, which they worship as holy, not to mention manifesting their designs in the physical universe. Maybe some Hosts would use different terminology, but the dynamic would be largely the same.

[A D-B]

It doesn't make a great deal of sense that the Word Bearers would have anything against Sorcerers; sorcery is a direct means of interacting with the Warp and its entities, which they worship as holy, not to mention manifesting their designs in the physical universe.

 

I don't see them as being adverse to sorcerors in general, but to those from other legions/warbands specifically.

 

 

Yeah. Even when writing the Word Bearers, which I've started doing a bunch, I can't find any compelling references (or reasons) that they have a dim view of sorcerers.

 

But then, it's also pretty ludicrous that commonly accepted knowledge has every Word Bearer warband led by a Dark Apostle. That's just stupid. I'm sure a lot of Apostles are very worthy leaders, with varying degrees of courage, charisma, resources and personal power. But every single warband led by one? Um. Yeah, no. Many will be led by ambitious sorcerers, or pious lords, or worthy commanders, and so on. Many more Apostles will share leadership of a warband with a council, or act as advisors and viziers to more powerful lords.

 

Not just "I play Word Bearers, I need a Red Team Chaplain in command."

 

Argh and Ugh. So limiting. So unrealistic in the scale of the setting.

[Kol Saresk]

Is it possible that since most of the sorcerers we see tend to have the view of "The warp is my power and the world my playground." that the Word Bearers feel some sort of enmity stemming from this because rather than gaining power through zeal and sacrifice like they(The Word Bearers) feel should be done, sorcerers are simply of the mind to take it while giving as little as possible back?

[Dammeron]

It doesn't make a great deal of sense that the Word Bearers would have anything against Sorcerers; sorcery is a direct means of interacting with the Warp and its entities, which they worship as holy, not to mention manifesting their designs in the physical universe.

 

I don't see them as being adverse to sorcerors in general, but to those from other legions/warbands specifically.

 

 

 

 

But then, it's also pretty ludicrous that commonly accepted knowledge has every Word Bearer warband led by a Dark Apostle. That's just stupid. I'm sure a lot of Apostles are very worthy leaders, with varying degrees of courage, charisma, resources and personal power. But every single warband led by one? Um. Yeah, no. Many will be led by ambitious sorcerers, or pious lords, or worthy commanders, and so on. Many more Apostles will share leadership of a warband with a council, or act as advisors and viziers to more powerful lords.

 

Not just "I play Word Bearers, I need a Red Team Chaplain in command."

 

Argh and Ugh. So limiting. So unrealistic in the scale of the setting.

 

 

Completely agree. There's no reason why a Word Bearers host couldn't be led by a particularly charismatic, chaos crusader-type, a council of religious elders, a daemon prince whom they regard as an angel or messenger of the divine pantheon, or any number of other combinations. Given the nature of religious ideology and its evolution, not to mention that of the power structures that inevitably crop up around it, it's a near certainty rather than a matter of postulation that the various Hosts of the Word Bearers are structured and operate very differently from one another, with regards to the idiosyncratic manner in which they interpret the One True Faith.

[KingDeath]

It doesn't make a great deal of sense that the Word Bearers would have anything against Sorcerers; sorcery is a direct means of interacting with the Warp and its entities, which they worship as holy, not to mention manifesting their designs in the physical universe.

 

I don't see them as being adverse to sorcerors in general, but to those from other legions/warbands specifically.

 

 

Yeah. Even when writing the Word Bearers, which I've started doing a bunch, I can't find any compelling references (or reasons) that they have a dim view of sorcerers.

 

But then, it's also pretty ludicrous that commonly accepted knowledge has every Word Bearer warband led by a Dark Apostle. That's just stupid. I'm sure a lot of Apostles are very worthy leaders, with varying degrees of courage, charisma, resources and personal power. But every single warband led by one? Um. Yeah, no. Many will be led by ambitious sorcerers, or pious lords, or worthy commanders, and so on. Many more Apostles will share leadership of a warband with a council, or act as advisors and viziers to more powerful lords.

 

Not just "I play Word Bearers, I need a Red Team Chaplain in command."

 

Argh and Ugh. So limiting. So unrealistic in the scale of the setting.

 

If the Word Bearers are still largely organised into hosts then the stipulation that every host is lead by a Dark Apostle makes sense. It is merely a matter of organisation, which seperates them from more fractured Legions like the World Eaters or the Nightlords or whatever else calls itself a servant of chaos these days.

Of course, exceptions are always possible. The Sanctified and perhaps the Apostles of Minthras ( the name and the colourscheme might hint to such a connection ) too could be viewed as independent Word Bearers warbands.

[TheDarkApostle]

I can't remember if it was the 3,5 edition codex or what that made a reference to the Word Bearers considering themselves "holier" that the standard lesser daemons. Yadda yadda something something which is why lesser daemons are considered "expendable" and can be used as shock troops and sacrificed while the more important astartes do tactical rapid advances in the same direction as the enemy :huh:

 

Endpoint, if what above is remembered correctly then I can see a point that a Sorcerer that is "reliant" on a being (lesser daemon) which is considered lower than themselves (the astartes, the chosen tools of the Gods) might be considered "weak" or "shameful" for having to rely on something like that to make himself a proper tool of the Gods.

 

Or something to that effect.

 

TDA

[Lepaca]

Endpoint, if what above is remembered correctly then I can see a point that a Sorcerer that is "reliant" on a being (lesser daemon) which is considered lower than themselves (the astartes, the chosen tools of the Gods) might be considered "weak" or "shameful" for having to rely on something like that to make himself a proper tool of the Gods.

 

Or maybe they would respect a sorcerer because he as an astartes capable of subjugating several of those lesser beings to use their power for himself. Profing again that he is the superior being.

 

All in all I would again say that the fluff is so flexible that if you want your Word Bearers warband to look down on sorcerers that's perfectly ok.

But IMO it is by no means a shared features of the WBs in general.

[A D-B]

If the Word Bearers are still largely organised into hosts then the stipulation that every host is lead by a Dark Apostle makes sense. It is merely a matter of organisation, which seperates them from more fractured Legions like the World Eaters or the Nightlords or whatever else calls itself a servant of chaos these days.

Of course, exceptions are always possible. The Sanctified and perhaps the Apostles of Minthras ( the name and the colourscheme might hint to such a connection ) too could be viewed as independent Word Bearers warbands.

 

My problem with that is that it's still "more organised" in relative terms. You can be "more organised", but you still live in an eternal Hell where time flows differently, and have spent countless dozens, hundreds, or thousands of years living in a realm of eternal fire, warfare, worlds reshaping according to daemons' whims, and emotion being made manifest. So I still find it unrealistic that such organisation holds together more often than not, especially when the rules themselves don't reflect the fluff that well from that era: Erebus and Kor Phaeron are Sorcerers and Apostles, but we're told one is Double Plus Good and the other is just Whatever.

 

The Word Bearers' (relative) organisation is an interesting facet to them, but I think it's a mistake to assume it holds as inviolate in One. Specific. Way. though an eternity of living inside Hell.

 

This:

 

Completely agree. There's no reason why a Word Bearers host couldn't be led by a particularly charismatic, chaos crusader-type, a council of religious elders, a daemon prince whom they regard as an angel or messenger of the divine pantheon, or any number of other combinations. Given the nature of religious ideology and its evolution, not to mention that of the power structures that inevitably crop up around it, it's a near certainty rather than a matter of postulation that the various Hosts of the Word Bearers are structured and operate very differently from one another, with regards to the idiosyncratic manner in which they interpret the One True Faith.

 

...strikes me as much more realistic, likely, characterful, and compelling. The Word Bearers' (relative) organisation comes in the form of cohesion and warbands' loyalty to a higher cause, and to each other. It means they fight each other slightly less than other Legions fight each other, and are slightly better at keeping in touch with one another. Not that every warband is homogenised into being led by the same guy. That's purely a rules conceit to make an army different on the tabletop, not something that bears fruit in the setting, or reflects the richness and flavour of the Legion.

[Kol Saresk]

Is it possible that since most of the sorcerers we see tend to have the view of "The warp is my power and the world my playground." that the Word Bearers feel some sort of enmity stemming from this because rather than gaining power through zeal and sacrifice like they(The Word Bearers) feel should be done, sorcerers are simply of the mind to take it while giving as little as possible back?

Okay, I feel like I kind of got steamrolled over here. Since that's what happened, I'm going to go with that this is not a logical answer. Could it just be that the Word Bearers just don't view themselves as sorcerers? Or could it even be that Erebus and Kor Phaeron are simply preaching "Hate all sorcery" to prevent others from getting close to their power and overthrowing them? Is there anything from the IP department or the fluff on that or am I just rambling in circles?

[Visitor13]

Is it possible that since most of the sorcerers we see tend to have the view of "The warp is my power and the world my playground." that the Word Bearers feel some sort of enmity stemming from this because rather than gaining power through zeal and sacrifice like they(The Word Bearers) feel should be done, sorcerers are simply of the mind to take it while giving as little as possible back?

 

I agree with this. Caveat - some Dark Apostles can very well be sorcerers in everything but name. But sorcerers as such should not be standard for the Bearers, I think, though hardly off limits.

[Xin Ceithan]

Bit of a late entry here but I can`t find a compelling reason for the Dislike either. I actually like the point most of you made and the current fluff is making WB far more interesting than them just being a monolithic structure with the same rigid organisation. That`s a bit ...dull. Also why would they keep a structured (codex-like :rolleyes: ) organisation over all that time when other Legion can`t seem to keep that up. And chaos is diversity by default, no? I always thought that one of best things of the newer chaos fluf was that it showed, no, encouraged people to embrace the diversity in chaos. It makes room for a lot more modelling and story options, which is always fine in my book. Leave the boring structures to the smurfs, I say^^

Anyway, I always considered the Lord / Sorc difference more a game definition / balance kind of thing. Especially since I seem to recall that you need not be a psyker to do sorcery ( The RPG books at least state that - and please note in advance that I keep Sorcery apart from Sorcerer ).

[Eetion]

I'm not sure I agree with the general dislike of sorcerors, mistrust probably but I wouldn't go all out and say their despised.

 

During the Heresy it seems Magnus and Lorgar had a pretty close relationship. I wouldn't imagine it being too much of a stretch to imagine that Lorgar endorsed magnus's Librarius project, training and encouraging the psychicly gifted. After all is not the warp not the realm of the gods.

 

I would however imagine that the sorcerors occupy themselves with the spells, curses, charms and hocus pocus contaoned within the Book of Lorgar rather that the faith and doctrine. I can quite easily see each Apostle using Sorcerors for whatever Black Arts are needed in the same way they leave the Military matters to the corypharus (sp?), the Apostles witch drs if you like, while they concentrate on matters of faith.

[Dallas Drake]

Most of the sorcerers the Word Bearers 'dislike' seem to be non-Word Bearer ones so any dislike is more down to inter-legion rivalry than anything IMO. Dark Apostles like Jarulek, Erebus or Marduk can use some 'magic' via summoning Daemons etc so I see no problem using sorcerers at all, Dark Apostles may well be in the new codex too so you won't have long to worry about this. Personally, I always saw sorcerers as being locked away and forced to carry out rituals rather than leading a Host into battle.

 

- Dallas

[minigun762]

Even after reading the various WB novels, I never felt that hatred of sorcerer's was a particular quirk of Word Bearers. Instead, I think it makes more sense to assume that all marines, even chaos ones, don't like and don't trust psykers. You may need them and use them, but could you really trust someone with that kind of power, power you were trained to hate?

 

I'm getting a sense of deja vu with this post, so hopefully I'm not just parroting myself. :)

[Brother Gorath]

But aren't you missing the most important aspect of Dark Apostles, they used to be Chaplains. I would assume they've added to their ranks but everything I've read clearly puts DA's in charge of the leadership of the chapter, both spiritual and in chapter organization. I also haven't read anything that clearly marks any of the Bearers highest ranking/most favored as sorcerers, they are all just the most pious and watched by the gods. Surely there are sorcerers in the legion but I would assume they fill a support role and not one of direct control.

[Caffeineated Chaos]

Alright so obviously we're past whether you can use Sorcerers rules-wise in your army. Now as for fluff. I still say yes. But I feel like everyone is steering around a conclusion that occurred to me while reading the Omnibus.

 

First an explanation on sorcerers as I've been able to piece together. Sorcerers are Psykers, but they're a specific type(and very powerful at that), going past the basic stuff that Astropaths and similar basic Psykers use, btw, certain imperial factions reactions to Librarians in relation to the old and outmoded accord at nikea imply they also use sorcery, which seems to be using outright spells as a medium for channelling psychic energy.

 

Now I believe that all Dark Apostles are Psykers, whether natural ones favored by the gods, or ones blessed with psychic power for their service(Psykers being just another kind of mutant ultimately). Now I feel what they do with their power is very similar to sorcery, I've seen in a scant few places their powers referred to as daemonmancy. But I feel like there's one key difference. While I'm sure some powers are more reliable than others, and anyone as favored as a Dark Apostle probably gets what they want, daemonmancy powers work by opening themselves to the gods or other powerful daemons, and allowing them to enact changes in the world using their psychic power as a conduit(this is reinforced by how Marduk fills himself with Khorne's rage to summon bloodletters and is outright possessed by Slaanesh to summon Daemonettes in the Omnibus), rather than truly casting spells themselves. Making it more of them actively asking for blessings and gifts and offering up the psychic power to do it with. It's similar to how arcane and divine magic are separated in most settings. Sorcery is overt manipulation of the warp. Daemonmancy is letting the warp's natural powers work through you. And it's this almost asking of the warp rather than demanding it that could cause the disdain for sorcery. Assuming these are the true differences between one and the other.

 

Now as far as Sorceres go in the warband. I'm sure at least in some Hosts psykers other than just the Apostle and First Acolyte practise Daemonmancy, and I'm sure at least some hosts allow their Psykers to practise the less-common in-legion, but overall more commonplace sorcery, if for no other reason than sheer experience and utility. Oh and I think the new psychic tables represent this asking for blessings through daemonmancy very well.

 

Anyway that's my understanding/interpretation of the matter. Take it as you will.