Belial- TH and SS or twin LC?

[Lord Morgrim]

How would you arm him now in 6th? I am leaning to the TH and the SS purely to make him more durable but i must admit the LCs are tempting against orks and the like. How do you army him?

[EPK]

Both are certainly viable.

 

I believe the mathhammer was run in a previous thread and the claws only slightly out performed the hammer for kills. So given that the hammer doesn't do so bad anyway (it just comes last) and the extra durability of the SS, I'd say TH/SS pushes ahead.

 

Against Orks, the claws are a great choice to thin out those boyz before they throw attacks. Maybe one of the downfalls is if you are in a challenge with anything with AP2 though - unless of course you kill it before it kills you - at least having a TH/SS sarge in the group to except challenges of that nature might be a nice standby.

[Hinti]

A Quick Reply:

It's personal gusto.......with TH/SS he loses Ini but survives "longer", with LC's he's not "so" durable, but hits on his Ini.....now what's better??

 

It also depends what gear is carried by his Squad.

 

Me personal (5th and 6th Edi):

LC......its all about Ini....don't lose it. With correct Unit coherency, he will life long enough in both CC and Receiving Fire.

 

Just my2cent

 

But its up to you!!!

[Chaplain Lucifer]

For it's about survivability and the AP2.. so TH&SS.

[Haranin]

Also depends on what you are fighting. If there is a lot str 8 AP2 weapons, the SS is great. If not, the LC are much better.

[elmo]

For me I like versatilty so magnets are the way to go.

 

You can play him any way you want and you are even prepared if something new comes out!

 

I know it does not exactly answer your question but it would let you gain experience with both loadouts.

[lhg033]

another vote for magnets! :rolleyes:

 

i've always leaned towards claws because i'm loathe to lose the Iniative. if he's bubbled with a squad of hammernators survivability is less of an issue as they can bullet catch for him.

 

maybe they'll bring back unique power swords for him in the new codex just to stir up the options some more.......

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Thing was in 5th and also apllies in 6th I believe , Belial functions as bullet catcher for the 1 wound models of the squad he is with, that's why I chose the 3+ inv save.

Also Math-wise the results of re-rolling wounds and wounding on 2+ are similar enough and high T models and vehicles can be hurt by the TH. There is no absolute better choice, all depends on metagame.

[Grand Master Springemann]

I run him with TH and SS and the squad he runs with is armed the same plus I have the Apoc and SB.

[march10k]

It's a mistake to think about his loadout in isolation from the squad he'll join. Here's my chain of reasoning. For the purpose of challenges, you're going to have two options, him and the sergeant. One should probably have claws, the other TH/SS. If you give belial the TH/SS, and the sergeant the claws, you lose something. I5 is a big deal because it kills MEQs without allowing them any attacks back. So there's more to it than just the slight edge in the number of casualties inflicted by belial's various loadouts, there's a HUGE difference in the timing. Kills inflicted at I5 are VASTLY more valuable than kills inflicted at I1. I put claws on belial and TH/SS on his sergeant. Then, if the enemy character has an invulnerable save or TDA, my sergeant goes into the challenge. Otherwise, belial does. Claws for me!

 

Thing was in 5th and also apllies in 6th I believe , Belial functions as bullet catcher for the 1 wound models of the squad he is with, that's why I chose the 3+ inv save.

The thing is, except for plasma, all of the AP2 or better shooting in the game, except for plasma, would instakill him...I'd rather lose one wound from a generic thundernator to a lascannon shot than lose a previously-unwounded belial. Other than that, yeah, he's a nice pain sink. Except that, with wounds going on the nearest model, you either stick him in front and risk the lascannon/melta shot, or you forego the chance to stick a failed armor save from a lasgun on him...there's no good answer! Also, 6th is different because belial is probably your warlord, and therefore worth a VP...so I've stopped sacrificing him for the greater good.

[captain sox]

In game experiences taught me to give him the TH/SS. He and his unit will be shot at, often with every weapon imaginable. His unit will be killed off, and when he's on his own, you don't want to rely on the 5+ invul.

 

For survivability, I vote TH/SS.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Like most I5 characters, I want to strike at initiative. So claws for me. Of course, the sergeant has TH/SS to accept challenges from things that would eat Belial alive.

[Petriefied]

According to the profiles in the rule book only ICs, Ravenwing Sergeants and Veteran Sergeants (tacticals) are characters. Am I missing something with the Deathwing Sergeant being a character?

[EPK]

I think you are. What would make them not? They have different profiles entries from the rest of thr squad - it just happens to be all the same stats.

[march10k]

I think you are. What would make them not? They have different profiles entries from the rest of thr squad - it just happens to be all the same stats.

 

 

Correct. P63 of the BGB says that they "have their own profile," not "they have a different profile." That means that the basic qualification is that they be listed separately from the regular squad members in the unit entry. It further says "perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices." Well, the deathwing sergeant defaults to having a power sword, an option not available to any other member of the squad.

[Petriefied]

So you would say the chart on page 134 is incorrect? This is the profile section which defines everything that is a character with (ch) and where we find what hull points vehicles have. It is probably an oversight that the Deathwing Sergeant is not listed, your quote of pg 63 also leaves out the part that says that 'They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of wargear choices'. The characteristics of the serg are identical and do not meet this requirement.

 

Interestingly the serg in the starter box does have the (ch) listed in his profile with the quick start rules (and higher ld).

[EPK]

So you would say the chart on page 134 is incorrect? This is the profile section which defines everything that is a character with (ch) and where we find what hull points vehicles have. It is probably an oversight that the Deathwing Sergeant is not listed, your quote of pg 63 also leaves out the part that says that 'They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of wargear choices'. The characteristics of the serg are identical and do not meet this requirement.

 

Interestingly the serg in the starter box does have the (ch) listed in his profile with the quick start rules. Before going to any tournament I'd check with your TO about this, because I know they are not playing them as characters around here.

 

It is not exactly worded in a way that they need to meet all requirements. And in my opinion, you would also have to define "enhanced characteristics" for us to apply it to something tangible. Technically, the mere fact that sergeant has a different name could be an enhanced characteristic. Or more so, the fact that he has a power sword can be considered enhanced. This is an enchancement that he starts with, not part of the "wider election of wargear choices" he perhaps has (which he doesn't).

 

The not being on the list part is problematic though. People like to take rules and black and white as they can.

 

I don't think the starter box with DW Sarge as "character" is a fluke - it was written for 6th. It obviously just makes a stronger argument that they are characters and GW mistakenly did not include them in the chart.

[Brother-Captain Stacius]

I used to always run him with storm bolter and sword, and found he died non stop to fists etc. I do have more joy running him with hammer and shield but twin claws is cool too!

[march10k]

So you would say the chart on page 134 is incorrect? This is the profile section which defines everything that is a character with (ch) and where we find what hull points vehicles have. It is probably an oversight that the Deathwing Sergeant is not listed, your quote of pg 63 also leaves out the part that says that 'They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of wargear choices'. The characteristics of the serg are identical and do not meet this requirement.

 

Interestingly the serg in the starter box does have the (ch) listed in his profile with the quick start rules (and higher ld).

 

I would say that the chart on page 134 is a reference, not a rule. There's a HUGE difference.

 

Page 63 sets out the rules for what is and what is not a character. Wouldn't it be retarded for every squad leader in the game, except for one, to be a character, and for GW to have intended for that one not to be a character, but when it's such an unusual decision, they decided to sneak that distinction into the a reference chart as an easter egg while not mentioning such an unusual distinction in the FAQ. I think the most important thing about how characters are defined on page 63 is the part where they're listed separately in the unit entry....even when they have exactly the same statline as "just another trooper."

 

What do you think is more likely, that GW was generalizing when it said "enhanced characteristics," or that they intend to be sneaky about how the deathwing sergeant is not a character?

 

If, out of all of the sergeants in the known universe, only deathwing sergeants were not characters, would that not be clarified in the FAQ?

 

THANK GOD that GW appears to have done away with the stupidity of RAW!!!

[Centurion645]

I've tried out both quite a few times. I personally prefer the TH/SS due to the fact that Belial is normally my warlord. I don't like having to rely on the 5++ Invul save so often, so the TH/SS is more to my liking.

[march10k]

I personally prefer the TH/SS due to the fact that Belial is normally my warlord.

 

That's actually a good reason for going with the storm shield...while I don't go that far, I have stopped abusing him for a bullet sponge the way I did in 5th, LOL.

[Master Avoghai]

So you would say the chart on page 134 is incorrect? This is the profile section which defines everything that is a character with (ch) and where we find what hull points vehicles have. It is probably an oversight that the Deathwing Sergeant is not listed, your quote of pg 63 also leaves out the part that says that 'They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of wargear choices'. The characteristics of the serg are identical and do not meet this requirement.

 

Interestingly the serg in the starter box does have the (ch) listed in his profile with the quick start rules (and higher ld).

 

I would say that the chart on page 134 is a reference, not a rule. There's a HUGE difference.

 

 

And don't forget the rule GW always use regarding entries and reference sheet :

 

When there's a difference between the unit/rule description and the reference sheet, the unit/rule description ALWAYS takes precedence.

 

So I don't really bother with the reference sheet... After all if you follow it in a RAW feelings, none of the BA squad leaders are characters either...

[Cactus]

The Dark Angels reference section is so full of holes and assumed references to Codex: Space Marines that it isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

 

On topic, my preference i s for hammer and shield. Partly because I'm very proud of the model and partly because a 5+ invulnerable save without eternal warrior is just too vulnerable.

[Xenith]

Since 6th, TLC is better imo.

 

In a challenge, the claws kill anything that can get through your armour, apart from other terminators.

 

The TH leaves you open to being hit with other hammers and getting instagibbed.

[march10k]

So you would say the chart on page 134 is incorrect? This is the profile section which defines everything that is a character with (ch) and where we find what hull points vehicles have. It is probably an oversight that the Deathwing Sergeant is not listed, your quote of pg 63 also leaves out the part that says that 'They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of wargear choices'. The characteristics of the serg are identical and do not meet this requirement.

 

Interestingly the serg in the starter box does have the (ch) listed in his profile with the quick start rules (and higher ld).

 

I would say that the chart on page 134 is a reference, not a rule. There's a HUGE difference.

 

 

And don't forget the rule GW always use regarding entries and reference sheet :

 

When there's a difference between the unit/rule description and the reference sheet, the unit/rule description ALWAYS takes precedence.

 

So I don't really bother with the reference sheet... After all if you follow it in a RAW feelings, none of the BA squad leaders are characters either...

 

 

Not to mention that SW Wolf Guard leave their squad to go be sergeants in grey hunters squads, they suddenly cease to exist...after all, they're not even in the table!!!