Belial- TH and SS or twin LC?

[publius]

My intuition in 6e (and this can and will change) is that the TH/SS is better for its cost. Terminators now have less to fear from "strikes-at-initiative" power weapons, so the need to have initiative 5 weapons strikes are significantly lessened.

 

In close combat, the biggest threat to terminators (I run Belial in an all-Deathwing army) are things that strike last, i.e. power axes, claws, fists, etc. I use Belial as much as possible as a 130 point sergeant that takes out the power axe/claw/fist, which is usually a sergeant or character that can be challenged, or some sort of monstrous creature. Very few armies out there can put a significant number of AP2 close combat weapons on random troopers, making close-combat a safer place to be.

[FerociousBeast]

If you go with twin lightning claws, Belial has one use and only one use: killing things in close combat (without a 2+ save).

 

If you go with thunder hammer and storm shield, Belial has two uses: killing very slightly fewer things in close combat (with or without a 2+ save and being more resilient himself) and soaking up non-Instant Death wounds for his squad. But you lose his initiative.

 

I think the additional possibilities of the TH/SS outweigh losing his initiative.

[march10k]

If you go with thunder hammer and storm shield, Belial has two uses: killing very slightly fewer things in close combat (with or without a 2+ save and being more resilient himself) and soaking up non-Instant Death wounds for his squad. But you lose his initiative.

 

 

Ah, but there's the rub! You don't get to assign wounds. Either he absorbs all wounds or none. The days of dumping random plasma wounds on him until he's down to his last wound are gone! It's closest model, period. So either you stick him out front, and he takes ALL incoming fire until he's dead (which could be the first melta or lascannon shot to come his way!), or you protect him by interposing his squad. So, no, in fact he does NOT have two uses.

 

Either you give him TH/SS, and waste his initiative while gaining...survivability against an enemy squad that's spamming fists/hammers (termies) and of course the ability to AP those same enemies (which, if they're thundernators, is not much improvement!), or you give him claws, and he has +1A at I5 (in most cases cutting the number of incoming non-AP attacks...which matters a lot if they're rending, but probably doesn't otherwise), but you have to keep him out of challenges with termies, and keep his entire squad away from any enemy thundernators, just to keep him alive.

 

To be honest, it's like debating Ford versus Chevy. If you step back for a minute, you'll realize that either choice beats the pants off of walking!

 

I'm sticking with claws for two reasons. One, that's the only belial model that I've made. Two, He has enough AP3 attacks that I'm more comfortable with his ability to kill an enemy powerfist sergeant than I am with my ability to roll 3+ on a save or two. Better not to let that enemy fist swing in the first place!

[Artemid]

But you could leave him in front to pass off a certain amount of his wounds via Look Out, Sirs! onto his squad, no?

[shabbadoo]

Arm the model to compliment whatever unit you will be running him with. When the codex comes out, you'll either continue to use him as Belial, or he'll just become a fancy Deathwing Sergent, depending on what weapons Belial's new entry includes.

[Master Avoghai]

I'm totally with shabadoo on this one : we don't know if Belial's profile will change (and we don't even know if Belial will still exist maybe a generic DW captain with large choice of Wargear (S5 PW + combi plasma anyone)?)

 

Magent the arms to be free to change in 2 months

[EPK]

Either you give him TH/SS, and waste his initiative while gaining...survivability against an enemy squad that's spamming fists/hammers (termies) and of course the ability to AP those same enemies (which, if they're thundernators, is not much improvement!), or you give him claws, and he has +1A at I5 (in most cases cutting the number of incoming non-AP attacks...which matters a lot if they're rending, but probably doesn't otherwise), but you have to keep him out of challenges with termies, and keep his entire squad away from any enemy thundernators, just to keep him alive.

 

Which is kind of a pain to do as the squad he is most likely with is probably the sqaud best suited to handle the hammernators.

 

As for next edition, I really think they will breath new live into his power sword. It's a name sword for emperor's sake, it needs some buffing...

 

You know what, they should just up his points and combine all his current variants into one. Wrist mounted storm bolter, AP2 Sword of Silence, and a storm shield (Draigo-esque look I suppose).... hmmm, how do I work in the claws? Named Storm Shield that has a serrated power bladed edge which counts as a CC weapon and gives re rollable wounds... Okay, maybe that's too much. lol

[MadMek83]

As I read everything in this thread, I decided to go for magnets. I mean its really only way to have some proof for new 'dex. Local meta game here is that everyone uses their commanders with ap2 weapons somehow so shield is almost must. I'd say depends alot your local meta though. i5 is nothing to sneeze about, especially against marines. But against DE with Archons armed their brand new AP2 Huskblades, shield please!

[march10k]

Which is kind of a pain to do as the squad he is most likely with is probably the sqaud best suited to handle the hammernators.

 

Um...why? Why does he have to accompany "the squad that's best suited to handle hammernators?" It's not like his presence makes them hammernator-bane. A chappy would, but what benefit does he bring, other than (if you give him TH/SS) an extra hammer to swing? You have the option of putting him in your "hammernator management squad," but there's absolutely no logical basis for your claim that he's "most likely going to be there." Hell, I'd put him in a squad of claws and send him after power armored enemies, and send a chappy with the anti-hammernator hammernators. Nothing krumps hammernators like hating hammernators!