Viable reasons for chapter creation

[KingdomCold]

Can we discuss viable reasons for a successor chapter being created? Why were they founded under a new chapter, instead of being added to the ranks of the seed? I'm having trouble with this.

 

I have, in the past, come up with various ideas for a chapter then to be told my idea does "not work" within the 40K universe. I am just looking for some advice to be honest.

 

Also, can someone explain the 'foundings' to me?

 

Help appreciated, Thank you

[Ecritter]

Possible Foundings Reasons:

 

- New threat of the Tau

- Increased Ork activity

- Increased Nid activity

- Loss of other chapters

- My brain itches

 

See where I'm going?

[KingdomCold]

Well, I thought this was viable... I had a story in which a new chapter was created to hold and maintain a 'frontline' sector with increased threat from a Tyranid invasion.

 

But I was asked, why would the Ultramarines not dispatch part of there forces rather than creating an entire new chapter from the gene seed.

[Messor]

Yeah, likeEcritter said in his first few examples, Chapters are raised as counters against known threats. There's also something I've only recently learned of something called strategic prognostication, which is basically a force raised in response to a prediction(presumably psychic) of an impending threat. Then there are standing forces, created expressly to operate in a certain region, and also chapters created specifically to crusade, whether to expand the strength of Man, or to pursue a threat.

[Messor]

Well, I thought this was viable... I had a story in which a new chapter was created to hold and maintain a 'frontline' sector with increased threat from a Tyranid invasion.

 

But I was asked, why would the Ultramarines not dispatch part of there forces rather than creating an entire new chapter from the gene seed.

 

I think that just depends on the region. If its a threat in UM space, then a new chapter probably wouldn't be raised. If its a more separated area, where other forces can't be spared, seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[Olis]

Well, I thought this was viable... I had a story in which a new chapter was created to hold and maintain a 'frontline' sector with increased threat from a Tyranid invasion.

 

But I was asked, why would the Ultramarines not dispatch part of there forces rather than creating an entire new chapter from the gene seed.

 

This would work well against, say, Hive Fleet Leviathan, where the fleet itself is attacking upwards through the galactic plane instead of at it from the east. That way your Chapter could have been dispatched (as a fresh chapter fleet) to an area within the Segmentum Solar. Something to bear in mind, though - Leviathan pops up around about 997.M41 which means, if you use this idea, they are a really new chapter that has yet to develop it's own traditions and style.

 

Also - the Ultramarines cannot be everywhere. If someone asked that question to you, then they firstly misunderstand the vastness of the galaxy itself (by quite a long way) and they secondly don't understand the point to the whole situation that the Imperium has with the Tyranids. The Imperium is either stretched to the limit combating 'nids or it's approaching that limit fast.

[Jacobius]

Well, I thought this was viable... I had a story in which a new chapter was created to hold and maintain a 'frontline' sector with increased threat from a Tyranid invasion.

 

Seems legit. No alarm bells going off in my head.

 

As has been pointed out tho, if the chapter was created specifically to counter 'nids then that makes the chapter really new. Like, so new they probably still have that new marine smell.

 

If you want a chapter that's a bit older but is focused on 'nids you could have the chapter founded to counter orks, for example, then centuries later the ork threat has been dealt with but now a tendril from Leviathan has made its way into their local space and they're now bug hunting full time.

 

But I was asked, why would the Ultramarines not dispatch part of there forces rather than creating an entire new chapter from the gene seed.

 

The obvious answer here is one or both of the following

 

1) UM are too busy fighting some other threat to send their own troops.

 

2) The threat is too large and sustained to be handled by a company or two from the UM and requires the creation of a whole new chapter

 

Hope that helps.

 

-J-

[Phalanx Warder]

Just looking over the OP and the reply's and it hasn't been mentioned so here i go..........

 

if your chapter was founded around the time the UM home world was attacked or shortly after the smurfs were in a consolidation phase, attempting to reorganize after the costly battle, this would explain their specialty in tyranids (maybe there original mission was different but were reorganized to face the new threat) maybe they had some ultra marine vets to help fresh from the battle of Macragg. the 40K world is your oyster as long as you don't go too far off the deep end!!

 

all that said your plans are not too far fetched as to be unthinkable, it just makes sense for the high lords to be bricking it enough to make multiple chapters for this very reason, new threat.......... new means to combat them

[LordEnki]

Ever check out the Octaguide? Link follows:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=214213

[Culebras]

the book Rites of Battle for the Deathwatch RPG contains a chart that is either praised or despised (depending on your point of view) for creating your own chapter. That book gives 4 possible options for why a chapter was founded:

 

1) preventative deployment: basically a chapter is created and deployed to strategically counter a future threat. this threat could be based on actual intelligence (a warp rift or an ork controlled sector not yet unified under a single leader), rumors or mystery (guard a number of dead world that later turns out to be necron tomb worlds) or pure superstition (a chapter must always watch over Sector X, lest an ancient evil return)

 

2) Counter specific threat: basically a single threat is deemed so dangerous that a space marine chapter must be raised to help end it. the older the threat, the longer your chapter can be in existence.

 

3) standing force: the galaxy is a big place and space marines are few. they cant be everywhere. on some occasions, a hole in the defenses is identified and a space marine chapter is founded to help project stability across several sectors, or to provide a quick reaction force that can deploy swiftly to meet any major threat.

 

4) Crusade: The imperium is always fighting crusades. at any moment, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of battles being fought to retake planets, solar systems, and even entire sectors in the name of the emperor. A chapter founded for a crusade is literally born of war, forged out of a need to utterly destroy, conquer, liberate, or purge.

 

Your idea for a Tyranid response chapter sounds like it falls in category 2, but there is no reason it could not include elements of the other three. A crusade meant to stop the Hivemind, no matter the cost, would be just as valid as saying they were founded to stabilize a section of space ravaged by repeated tyranid splinter fleets. Further, Rites of battle puts forward the idea that the Scythes of the Emperor may have been founded deliberately because a prophecy foretold the coming of the Tyranids long before they were even known.

 

Feel free to check out the book, it is a good read

[LordEnki]

And to elaborate on Oli's post: The most recent Founding was BEFORE the first 'Nid attacks. So there are two good options for it (by good I mean keeping well in line with established fluff): first is a repurposed chapter, second would be they were founded based off of some psychic vision or terrible reading of the Tarot. A third, but more out there, option is that they were founded outside of the norm, and since the 26th Founding.

[Aqui]

To reiterate what has already been said:

 

I've had a look at the 40k time line to check on a few things. Lexicanum's entry on Hive Fleet Behemoth, the first recorded incursion in Imperial space was in 745.M41. The last Founding (26th) was in 738.M41. Bearing any inconsistencies in 40k fluff (and as we all know, there are more than a few....), it would mean that any Chapter created in the last Founding was not created with the 'Nid menace in mind :P as the Imperium hadn't yet encountered them. Even if the Chapter was created for the purpose, the Chapter would only be a few years old and most likely lacking in that much battle experience, even if the Chapter was led by very experienced Marines.

 

Possibly a way around this would be, that Chapter X was created to guard an outer edge of the Imperium, but were too far away to support the Ultramarines when Hive Fleet Behemoth arrived.

 

Determined to never be out of position again, Chapter X decided that they would patrol an area of space that the next wave of 'Nids would likely use to gain entrance to the Imperium.

 

Next time, they would be ready.....

 

Edit: Failure to read all of the above posts properly :lol:

[Lord_Caerolion]

But I was asked, why would the Ultramarines not dispatch part of there forces rather than creating an entire new chapter from the gene seed.

 

Because as good as the Ultramarines are, 1000 of them isn't enough to fight off every Tyranid everywhere? They barely managed to hold a single planet against a serious push from the Tyranids, they sure as hell can't guard the entire Eastern Fringe. Let's say there's 100 planets worth defending across the current borders of the Fringe. If we were to just have the Ultramarines guard them, that's 10 Ultramarines guarding each world, in addition to the Imperial Guard/Navy/various PDFs. They're going to need a little more than that for the Astartes to have any sort of impact whatsoever.

 

The Eastern Fringe is a big place, and the Tyranids are attacking pretty much all of it. While it's too little time for a Chapter to have been Founded explicitly to fight the Tyranids, it's entirely believable that numerous nearby Chapters decided to put all their effort into fighting this new threat.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Because the High Lords of Terra in their infinite wisdom decreed the creation of many new Astartes Chapters in another Founding.

 

Thats why we have foundings. Isolated chapters, when created, are created, usually, in order to replace a destroyed Chapter.

 

It is the HLoT, NOT the individual Chapter-Masters who authorise the creation of new chapters. They usually create a bunch, give them a number, select a geneseed and a Chapter to supply the cadre to train the new Chapter. For whatever reason(s) these Chapters are assigned to regions to start out, either with a Homeworld, but usually as a fleet based Chapter.

[Epistolary Exander]

To reiterate what has already been said:

 

I've had a look at the 40k time line to check on a few things. Lexicanum's entry on Hive Fleet Behemoth, the first recorded incursion in Imperial space was in 745.M41. The last Founding (26th) was in 738.M41. Bearing any inconsistencies in 40k fluff (and as we all know, there are more than a few....), it would mean that any Chapter created in the last Founding was not created with the 'Nid menace in mind :) as the Imperium hadn't yet encountered them. Even if the Chapter was created for the purpose, the Chapter would only be a few years old and most likely lacking in that much battle experience, even if the Chapter was led by very experienced Marines.

 

Possibly a way around this would be, that Chapter X was created to guard an outer edge of the Imperium, but were too far away to support the Ultramarines when Hive Fleet Behemoth arrived.

 

Determined to never be out of position again, Chapter X decided that they would patrol an area of space that the next wave of 'Nids would likely use to gain entrance to the Imperium.

 

Next time, they would be ready.....

 

Edit: Failure to read all of the above posts properly :P

 

I think you are forgetting how long it actually takes to found a chapter? It takes around 50 years to grow enough geneseed to implant into the first 1000 potential neophytes of a chapter and then you are looking at the addtional time to properly build all the chapters armour, weapons and ships. Finally you are looking at the time it takes to train the new chapter while it is being overseen by its progenitor chapter/ successor chapter's initial command staff. Overall you are probably looking at the best part of a century to complete the entire founding of a chapter.

 

Given how close the dates are between the 26th Founding and Hive Fleet Behemoth it is not unfeasible that one or multiple chapters could have been diverted during the founding process to specialise in countering the Nid threat.

[Messor]

I don't think preparing a Chapter takes that long, though I don't have any source for that. Assuming it takes 50 years to build the necessary gene-seed, what are the forges doing that whole time? The most time consuming constructions for a Chapter are the fleet, which I might understand taking fifty years tops to complete. Honestly, I'd expect most of the equipment to already be built, just needing the chapter paint job. After that, if the chapter is taking more than 10 years to train, sounds to long in my opinion. After all this it seems like no chapter could be effectively raised as a counter. The threatened imperial worlds are just supposed to weather invasion for 60+ years? I dunno....

[Epistolary Exander]

I don't think preparing a Chapter takes that long, though I don't have any source for that. Assuming it takes 50 years to build the necessary gene-seed, what are the forges doing that whole time? The most time consuming constructions for a Chapter are the fleet, which I might understand taking fifty years tops to complete. Honestly, I'd expect most of the equipment to already be built, just needing the chapter paint job. After that, if the chapter is taking more than 10 years to train, sounds to long in my opinion. After all this it seems like no chapter could be effectively raised as a counter. The threatened imperial worlds are just supposed to weather invasion for 60+ years? I dunno....

 

It also takes about 7 years to normally turn an aspirant into a marine which should also be factored into how long it takes to found a chapter. 10 years for training a marine seems a bit short considering most tactical marines normally which form the bulk of most chapters at first have their tours in the scout company before doing their turn in a Devastator and Assault squad before joining the tactical companies. So yea a best part of the century does sound appropriate.

[Messor]

A tour in the scout company/companies is still active duty service, though, and at its inception it seems wiser to train marines for specific roles, establishing specialists who can train future neophytes. If the goal is to deploy a chapter ASAP, which it should be, a century just seems like a really long time. And again, can a marine not be in the implantation process while the gene-seed is being produced? And what is his status during this time? Is he in surgery for seven years, or has training already begun?

[Epistolary Exander]

A tour in the scout company/companies is still active duty service, though, and at its inception it seems wiser to train marines for specific roles, establishing specialists who can train future neophytes. If the goal is to deploy a chapter ASAP, which it should be, a century just seems like a really long time. And again, can a marine not be in the implantation process while the gene-seed is being produced? And what is his status during this time? Is he in surgery for seven years, or has training already begun?

 

A marine can not wear power armour until he has implant 19 implanted into him which is the black carapace. Its the black carapace that interfaces power armour with the marine's nervous system and therefore marine can not fully train until the last implant has been fitted to him, it is a factor why a neophyte fights in the scout company first. Your idea has merit but you are still probably looking at 70+ years to complete a founding to a minimum acceptable standard.

 

It should be noted that some chapters like the BA and SW impantation process of geneseed in neophytes to space marine is a lot more quicker than process used by most chapters of other primarch's decent.

[Messor]

Of course, hard to function as a Marine with an incomplete body, so I suppose that time can't be recouped. Well if that be the case I feel the need to reconcile a Chapter created as a "counter" with the time it takes to complete that chapter. In order to distinguish from strategic prognostication, I would say a force raised as counter would be raised against an enemy that is a) attacking, or en route to attack the imperium and B ) beyond the reach of significant aid from other Astartes. Whatever imperial world/system is under siege is expected to last that almost-century? How many single campaigns have lasted that long?[/fluff noob]

[Jacobius]

My understanding of Imperial doctrine when it comes to threat management is that life is cheap and they're prepared to sacrifice a world or ten and the millions or even billions of lives that entails if it means that the Imperium comes out on top in the end.

 

Exterminatus is the most obvious example of this where, instead of policing the taint of chaos and installing forces to eradicate the cultists etc. the Imperium just nukes the world.

 

It seems to me that the way the 'nids have been fought is a series of delaying actions and last ditch stands to slow their advance to allow the rest of the Imperium time to respond.

 

So while 70+ years to raise a chapter seems a bit excessive, it's not inconceivable that billions of lives could be sacrificed to buy a few years or even a decade or two.

 

My two cents.

 

-J-

[voi shet magir]

Or, you know, existing marine chapters respond and the new chapters fill in for whatever standby activities the existing chapters were doing.

can a marine not be in the implantation process while the gene-seed is being produced?

 

All the geneseed for a chapter comes from a single composite marine. The magi select a separate zygote for each organ. They make a thousand identical copies before they implant a single marine, and the only way to do that is by implanting test slaves that spend their whole lives in giant test tubes.

 

It adds another ethical objection to space marines, and probably is an on-going process in the case of raven guard, who need mars to ship them gene seed. It is also the part that takes 55 years, so marines cannot even begin to be implanted until that time, much less be combat ready.

 

So of ccourse it is silly for chapters to be founded in reaction to anything, especially since they probably spend decades tagging along as junior buddies to major chapters that have things like supply depots, terminator squads, and proven leadership. Sending a new chapter really means sending part of a second founding chapter and their several hundred junior allies from chapter No. X.

[voi shet magir]

Or, you know, existing marine chapters respond and the new chapters fill in for whatever standby activities the existing chapters were doing.

can a marine not be in the implantation process while the gene-seed is being produced?

 

All the geneseed for a chapter comes from a single composite marine. The magi select a separate zygote for each organ. They make a thousand identical copies before they implant a single marine, and the only way to do that is by implanting test slaves that spend their whole lives in giant test tubes.

 

It adds another ethical objection to space marines, and probably is an on-going process in the case of raven guard, who need mars to ship them gene seed. It is also the part that takes 55 years, so marines cannot even begin to be implanted until that time, much less be combat ready.

 

So of ccourse it is silly for chapters to be founded in reaction to anything, especially since they probably spend decades tagging along as junior buddies to major chapters that have things like supply depots, terminator squads, and proven leadership. Sending a new chapter really means sending part of a second founding chapter and their several hundred junior allies from chapter No. X.

 

OH so I keep forgetting: "astartes" is not a noun. GW issued a thing on this, and it said that you should use language the right way. Adepts are nouns, and some adepts are adepts astarte? But failing that it is like abbreviating Space Marines as Spaces.

[Messor]

My understanding of Imperial doctrine when it comes to threat management is that life is cheap and they're prepared to sacrifice a world or ten and the millions or even billions of lives that entails if it means that the Imperium comes out on top in the end.

 

Exterminatus is the most obvious example of this where, instead of policing the taint of chaos and installing forces to eradicate the cultists etc. the Imperium just nukes the world.

 

It seems to me that the way the 'nids have been fought is a series of delaying actions and last ditch stands to slow their advance to allow the rest of the Imperium time to respond.

 

So while 70+ years to raise a chapter seems a bit excessive, it's not inconceivable that billions of lives could be sacrificed to buy a few years or even a decade or two.

 

My two cents.

 

-J-

 

Ah, and my cringing at that concept is a sure sign I've been playing Tau for too long. I may have to incorporate this into my original Chapter, an unwillingness to let a world fall due to the ponderous pace of bureaucracy (and organ farming).

 

 

Or, you know, existing marine chapters respond and the new chapters fill in for whatever standby activities the existing chapters were doing.

 

And should there be no forces near at hand, then Jacobius' situation occurs :lol: I get the feeling that life at the edge of the Imperium must be one of the most high risk living situations possible. Then again, grimdark, far future, only war.

 

All the geneseed for a chapter comes from a single composite marine. The magi select a separate zygote for each organ. They make a thousand identical copies before they implant a single marine, and the only way to do that is by implanting test slaves that spend their whole lives in giant test tubes.

 

It adds another ethical objection to space marines, and probably is an on-going process in the case of raven guard, who need mars to ship them gene seed. It is also the part that takes 55 years, so marines cannot even begin to be implanted until that time, much less be combat ready.

 

So of ccourse it is silly for chapters to be founded in reaction to anything, especially since they probably spend decades tagging along as junior buddies to major chapters that have things like supply depots, terminator squads, and proven leadership. Sending a new chapter really means sending part of a second founding chapter and their several hundred junior allies from chapter No. X.

 

OH so I keep forgetting: "astartes" is not a noun. GW issued a thing on this, and it said that you should use language the right way. Adepts are nouns, and some adepts are adepts astarte? But failing that it is like abbreviating Space Marines as Spaces.

 

I don't think I follow what you mean by all the geneseed comes from a 'composite' marine, what do you mean by that? Unless I'm misunderstanding again, someone should tell the guy who wanted his chapter to come from the ultramarines 2nd company captain...but I'm probably misunderstanding.

 

I do agree though, all this considered, that the 'counter' justification isn't very viable, and probably just rogue traders' antiquity speaking. And thanks for the tidbit about Astartes, I know have a lot of replacing to do in my IAs!

[Jacobius]

All the geneseed for a chapter comes from a single composite marine. The magi select a separate zygote for each organ. They make a thousand identical copies before they implant a single marine, and the only way to do that is by implanting test slaves that spend their whole lives in giant test tubes.

 

It adds another ethical objection to space marines, and probably is an on-going process in the case of raven guard, who need mars to ship them gene seed. It is also the part that takes 55 years, so marines cannot even begin to be implanted until that time, much less be combat ready.

 

My understanding of the way the geneseed is reproduced is that each marine has two organs that produce new geneseeds after 5 and 10 years for the life of the marine. Presumably, every chapter would be very vigilant at harvesting these at any given chance and would build up quite a stockpile depending how often they were fighting and how often they lose members. Each chapter also needs to send some geneseed to mars for checking, safekeeping etc..

 

So the theory is that when a chapter is selected to begin a successor, they are given some geneseed out of the stores of the chapter/mars and sent on their merry way. Each geneseed contains the necessary genetic material for creating the organs for implantation into a candidate.

 

Reference

 

Does that sound right to everybody?

 

-J-