Viable reasons for chapter creation

[voi shet magir]

It does not.

 

A new chapter cannot be founded overnight. A single suitable gene- seed must be selected for each zygote. Zygotes are then grown in culture and implanted into human test-slaves. These test slaves must be biologically compatible and free from mutation. Test-slaves spend their entire lives bound in static experimental capsules. Although conscious they are completely immobile, serving as little more than mediums within which the various zygotes can develop. From the original slave come two progenoids, which are implanted within two more slaves, from which come four progenoids and so on. It takes about 55 years of constant reproduction to produce 1000 healthy sets of organs.

 

A single suitable gene- seed must be selected for each zygote.

That is what I mean by composite marine. The progenoids produce a separate gene seed zygote for each organ. The priests have millions of sets. So instead of taking a progenoid from a marine and using that set of zygotes to implant one more marine directly, the magi make a composite gene seed including the betcher's gland zygote from the set of gene seed from one specific marine and the oomophagea zygote from the gene seed of a different specific marine.

 

They then use the slaves to duplicate it under laboratory conditions, so that the initial one thousand marines have gene seed as close to identical to the original composite as possible. That makes them a single, distinct chapter, they have their own special blend of their primarch's gene seed. If it were just Imperial Fists building up gene seed, they would be making more genetic Imperial Fists, not a genetically new and separate chapter.

 

Or at least, according to the same article referenced above.

[Messor]

That seems to create a big hole for genetic flaws everywhere, it seems. If they have such pick and choose freedom with where (which marine) to select gene-seed, either humans just really aren't that compatible with the zygotes, causing mutation upon implantation, or there shouldn't be so many flaws out there. On that note, why aren't only the purest Chapter sources used for every founding? There are a lot of uncorrupted gene-seed sources out there. Why would the pairing of the gene-seed and the parent Chapter matter? Just personal pride?

[Jacobius]

So what you're saying is that 55 years after their first tithe, there will be enough geneseed to completely replace the chapter?

 

It makes no sense for there to be no constant production and stockpiling of geneseed, assuming it can be stored indefinitely and produced in slaves as you mention, rather than in marines as mentioned in the article above, allowing large scale production of marines in times of need.

 

Unless there's some prohibition on stockpiling of geneseed from the High Lords of Terra, which means that a chapter would almost never be founded to counter an immediate threat (unless that threat could be delayed for 55 years) and a chapter that, say, loses a company in the warp or to a 'nid invasion, would be hampered for decades while they rebuild, which seems silly? (This might be the way the fluff is set up so we have to live with it but it's still silly)

 

The whole "geneseed can only be produced inside a marine" thing would make the long delays in producing new marines make more sense.

 

My understanding of the way a chapter gains a unique genetic identity is that, initially at least, a chapter founded using 'real' IF geneseed, for example, ARE identical to IF. Changes come over time, with interaction with the host humans who are probably a genetically distinct population from planet to planet and finally through accident and mutation.

 

-J-

[Messor]

My understanding of the way a chapter gains a unique genetic identity is that, initially at least, a chapter founded using 'real' IF geneseed, for example, ARE identical to IF. Changes come over time, with interaction with the host humans who are probably a genetically distinct population from planet to planet and finally through accident and mutation.

 

-J-

 

Mine as well. Useful if the Chapter was founded earlier, but harder to implement in the latest founding. They've had, what, a few hundred years? I guess it could happen, with particularly unstable zygotes.

[voi shet magir]

Well, mutation, that is something to talk about. When geneseed comes out of an Imperial Fist (Lysander? Sure. Pretend he was never abducted and had a normal career) It is probably different from other Fists'. There are coding segments of DNA, and many segments ultimately having to do with transcriptionn. They all mutate just by themselves due to replication error, transposons, and normal metabolic interference. That is without external mutagens like radiation. Those are normal and often amount to nothing.

Even without some ability of the progenoids to modify the zygotes they produce via host interactions, Lysander's gene seed will be in some small way distinct. The tithes and purity tests are there to check how far they deviate from the original template.

 

Every once in a while, one zygote from one progenoid from one marine comes along that is not only distinct, but interesting. This becomes, eg, the oolitic kidney zygote for a new chapter's template gene seed. Even though the gene seed came from an Imperial Fist, it is already deviated from the Imperial Fists' archetypal oolitic kidney. The difference may be less extreme than a greater or lesser number of duplicate sequences for a single gene, but it is detectably different.

 

Why can't, if you are interested in the topic, you google any one sentence out of any of those? " Zygotes are then grown in culture and implanted into human test-slaves." This series of WD articles by Rick Priestly, Bryan Ansell, Alan Merret, whomever, that you are indirectly referencing by the lexicanum link, are modern 40k, are modern space marines. When you like space marines, this is what you are liking. The codexes et al that you learned about it through are merchandise that spin off of those articles, right there.

[Messor]

One thing I didn't catch in either of the articles you guys mentioned was the reason for the extreme necessity of a Marine producing gene-seed via progenoids. Do they require the other zygotes to function/produce gene-seed? In fact voi shet magir's article seems to suggest that test slaves can be harvested for progenoids. So is there any source that might explain why myriad slaves aren't used to simply harvest all the necessary organs, reducing the threat to a chapter from heavy losses? Also neither article seemed to make mention of why successors have to have their parent chapter's gene-seed. An obvious limitation is gene-seed available, but healthy, stable Chapters (Ultramarines, and most of their successors, besides others I'm sure) have been tithed for gene-seed for millennia. So at least for as many Chapters as possible, why not culture gene-seed from the stable sources, regardless of who the training cadre is, so the marines are fully fit. In other words, why take IF gene-seed if it is known that those marines will probably lack a Betcher's Gland and Sus-an Membrane?

[voi shet magir]

I can talk about it after someone posts a screen cap of google results involving the search terms "zygotes," "test slaves," and maybe "rick priestly."

 

PS everyone while you read this someone is burning every credential or diploma you have ever had and the accreditation of the granting institutions because they were lies.

[Messor]

I can talk about it after someone posts a screen cap of google results involving the search terms "zygotes," "test slaves," and maybe "rick priestly."

 

PS everyone while you read this someone is burning every credential or diploma you have ever had and the accreditation of the granting institutions because they were lies.

 

If this is what you mean(the article from which you pasted the info on zygotes grown in test slaves), it didn't answer either of the questions I brought up. It suggests that progenoids draw nutrients from the other organs, but says nothing about what makes it essential that these organs be in the marine as opposed to the test slave. There is also no mention of the relation between gene-seed and successors. If that article is the one you mean for us to read, it was interesting, but not enlightening in these regards. I don't know whether the tenth grade author sourced Priestly or developed that on his own, but it read well. I didn't find anything on Priestly that wasn't either from Lexicanum or being about him leaving GW. If there are articles by him that its important we read, that you know of, I don't see why you didn't link them in the first place.

 

edit: http://www.ultramarines.nl/marineimplants.htm

A largely identical article, which did touch on the length of the implantation process, which is good to know. According to the table the latest viable age to begin receiving implants is 12, and from their the process appears able to be completed by age 16, or 18 at the latest. The black carapace matures in a matter of months after implantation. Not bad, in terms of speed.

 

Also nothing seems to hint at what is going on during the implantation. Kid's not under the knife, out cold for 6 years, is he?

[Jacobius]

One thing I didn't catch in either of the articles you guys mentioned was the reason for the extreme necessity of a Marine producing gene-seed via progenoids. Do they require the other zygotes to function/produce gene-seed? In fact voi shet magir's article seems to suggest that test slaves can be harvested for progenoids. So is there any source that might explain why myriad slaves aren't used to simply harvest all the necessary organs, reducing the threat to a chapter from heavy losses?

 

This is the point I was trying to make with my reply above. Either, they must be reproduced inside a marine, which explains the long delays in getting enough stock to make a new marine and how precious geneseed is supposed to be, or, progenoids can be reproduced inside a slave which means there is no reason why, assuming the geneseed or individual organs can be stored ready for use indefinitely, there couldn't be millions of organs sitting on mars ready to whip up a new batch of marine.

 

Now if the fluff gives a less than satisfactory answer of "because that's just the way it is" I can live with it but at the moment it seems to be up in the air and the slave thing seems to reduce the value of a chapters geneseed to the point where they wouldn't care about retrieving it from their dead because the AdMech has a -80C fridge somewhere with a whole bunch of it ready to go.

 

Well, mutation, that is something to talk about. When geneseed comes out of an Imperial Fist (Lysander? Sure. Pretend he was never abducted and had a normal career) It is probably different from other Fists'. There are coding segments of DNA, and many segments ultimately having to do with transcriptionn. They all mutate just by themselves due to replication error, transposons, and normal metabolic interference. That is without external mutagens like radiation. Those are normal and often amount to nothing.

Even without some ability of the progenoids to modify the zygotes they produce via host interactions, Lysander's gene seed will be in some small way distinct. The tithes and purity tests are there to check how far they deviate from the original template.

 

Genetically different? Yes. Phenotypically different, which is the important bit? No. Phenotypically different in the future? Possible.

 

Aside from the idea of "geneseed-interaction-with-host-produces-change-in-phenotype", the two options left are genetic drift, which takes time or a mutation in the geneseed or organ that causes a change in phenotype. The first one is hard to detect and control without hindsight. The second one is easy and, aside from a plot hook in an IA, why would the Imperium, with their focus on purity and loathing for mutants allow a chapter to be created using geneseed that is showing a distinct difference (i.e. within one generation) from that of the parent chapter?

 

As an example, why would a chapter be created from IF geneseed where, not only the Sus-an membrane and the Betchers gland don't function but now the Melanchromic Organ causes blue skin due to the individual the geneseed came from copping a burst of gamma radiation? If, on the other hand, a chapter master had his skin turn blue after a battle, due to radiation again and his battle brothers venerated him enough to pass his geneseed on to new recruits, after a while the whole chapter could end up with blue skin which makes sense within the 40k universe.

 

Interested in people's thoughts.

 

-J-

[Messor]

In other words, why take IF gene-seed if it is known that those marines will probably lack a Betcher's Gland and Sus-an Membrane?

 

 

Now if the fluff gives a less than satisfactory answer of "because that's just the way it is" I can live with it but at the moment it seems to be up in the air and the slave thing seems to reduce the value of a chapters geneseed to the point where they wouldn't care about retrieving it from their dead because the AdMech has a -80C fridge somewhere with a whole bunch of it ready to go.

 

The second one is easy and, aside from a plot hook in an IA, why would the Imperium, with their focus on purity and loathing for mutants allow a chapter to be created using geneseed that is showing a distinct difference (i.e. within one generation) from that of the parent chapter?

 

As an example, why would a chapter be created from IF geneseed where, not only the Sus-an membrane and the Betchers gland don't function but now the Melanchromic Organ causes blue skin due to the individual the geneseed came from copping a burst of gamma radiation? If, on the other hand, a chapter master had his skin turn blue after a battle, due to radiation again and his battle brothers venerated him enough to pass his geneseed on to new recruits, after a while the whole chapter could end up with blue skin which makes sense within the 40k universe.

 

-J-

 

Great points. The easy solution is to accept the sheer value marines place on their progenoids as evidence that they can't just be produced outside the marine, despite having a pure, compatible slave in a tube. Maybe the gene-seed is tempered in battle, but whatever. It really is likely the case that a slave simply can't be made to produce the necessary stimuli to nourish the organs from inside a tube.

 

As for the mutation, I feel like the problem is that through the fluff we're given more than the modern Imperium has. Who knows how well a marine understands his implants, they just might immortalize such a brother that way. All the ritualism and supersition of Space Marines seems counteractive to their enhanced minds. Their skilled and powerful brother is rocking the same set of organs, with the same flaws. It was only the way he used them that made him amazing. The only basis for selecting gene-seed for future marines should be testing for purity, imho. Otherwise the passing on of corrupts/mutated gene-seed can only result in the extinction of Space Marines.

[Jacobius]

In other words, why take IF gene-seed if it is known that those marines will probably lack a Betcher's Gland and Sus-an Membrane?

 

The probable answer to this question is that twofold at least.

 

1. The IF and the other original legions have a lot of prestige and clout they can pass on to any descendants. It also means they can get away with a lot that other lesser chapters couldn't. Note that this has limits with the SW being an obvious example.

 

2. The mutations while seemingly extensive haven't seemed to hamper them. Compare this with something like the black dragons or the fleshtearers

 

-J-

[Messor]

Prestige and political power seem like really good reasons, actually. Another possibility that comes from the Rites of Battle book suggests that attempts could be made to 'breed out' flaws to protect a successor from its progenitor's maladies. This could result in fewer or more problems in the gene-seed. This would again throw into question how much the modern magi understand about the zygotes, i.e. are they more like trial and error attempts, or more directed genetic manipulation? I'm inclined to say its trial and error. If they don't know enough to perform consistent, clean removals or not to venerate and perpetuate flaws, there's no reason to think they understand enough to actually have a chance at fixing them.

[Leonaides]

This is the point I was trying to make with my reply above. Either, they must be reproduced inside a marine, which explains the long delays in getting enough stock to make a new marine and how precious geneseed is supposed to be, or, progenoids can be reproduced inside a slave which means there is no reason why, assuming the geneseed or individual organs can be stored ready for use indefinitely, there couldn't be millions of organs sitting on mars ready to whip up a new batch of marine.

You seem to be simply treating geneseed as a tool for making marines. You have obviously forgotten (or have not really thought through) that they are the holiest of holies - part of the flesh of the Emperor himself. touched by His hand, shaped by His will into Instruments of Ascension (the Primarchs) and then brought forth by their Sons, the Adeptus Astartes...

 

Imagine someone having a piece of the True Cross and successfully splicing it in to a living tree. Now waht happens if that piece grows a bud, which bears a fruit. Suddenly you can grow more of it. So why not just grow thousands of trees born of the True Cross, chop them up into little matchstick-sized fragments and flog them at tourist stalls outside every church across the planet. And remember to keep harvesting those trees, stockpiling them in shipping containers all over the world...

 

Now imagine doing that in an environment where the world was taken over by 12th century europe, and no-one's advanced since then...

 

See any issues? Thats why its not done like that.

[Jacobius]

And this is the problem I'm having with the idea of putting geneseed into slaves...

 

If it IS so holy, why would you splice the True Cross into a weed? Furthermore, they're not being flogged to tourists, they're strictly reserved for the Knights Templar. What's wrong with making a wharehouse of copies as long as they're all handed out to Knights?

 

It may just be that the fluff contradicts itself, not like that hasn't happened before, and says in one place it can only be reproduced inside a marine and that's part of the reason why it's so precious and why the loss of a whole company or more is so devastating (looking at you Crimson Fists...) while in another place it says, stick it in a slave, grow it in tanks which lends itself to mass production, however limited.

 

Maybe slaves are only used when a founding is decreed seeing as dozens of chapters are founded at once and the rest of the time the chapters have to fend for themselves?

 

*shrug*

 

Anyway, the original topic was a viable reason for founding and a secondary topic was how long does it take? I think we have official fluff that says that slaves can be used and that gives us a good reason to say that it can happen very quickly.

 

-J-

[Micius]

On the topic of geneseed, I must obviously be doing something wrong, but I have been wondering this math problem for some time: the Emperor was interred in His golden throne 10,000 years ago, a space marine chapter consists of 1,000 marines, 1,000 marines worth of organs can be produced from a single set of progenoids in 55 years (pg. 17), and the tithe set by the Adeptus Mechanicus is 5% of geneseed production, why are there so few space marine chapters? Let's say, for argument's sake, the Adeptus Mechanicus worked at maximum efficiency that entire time (which they obviously didn't), but they only had an initial tithe and didn't get influxes of tithed geneseed every x number of years (trying to keep the math simple) and they only started with a single set of progenoids (they obviously had more available from the beginning). This is what I get when I math this out...

 

Year 00000 - 1 set of progenoids

Year 00055 - COMPLETION: 1,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 5 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 1 Chapter (+1).

Year 00110 - COMPLETION: 5,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 25 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 6 Chapters (+5).

Year 00165 - COMPLETION: 25,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 125 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 31 Chapters (+25).

Year 00220 - COMPLETION: 125,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 625 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 156 Chapters (+125).

Year 00275 - COMPLETION: 625,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 3,125 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 781 Chapters (+625).

Year 00330 - COMPLETION: 3,125,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 15,625 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 3,906 Chapters (+3,125).

Year 00385 - COMPLETION: 15,625,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 78,125 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 19,531 Chapters (+15,625).

 

If in 385 years, 15,625 Chapters were capable of being produced (at maximum efficiency, but with severe restrictions), why have only around 1,000 chapters of Space Marines been produced over a period of 10,000 years? I personally don't think it has anything to do with a limited supply of geneseed. I think they should be sitting on piles and piles of geneseed (and if one marine can make two, it never makes sense for a chapter with an apothecary left [or even one loaned to them] to go extinct). What is more likely to me is that they don't have enough equipment for more chapters (most of that technology being lost and the limited maximum output of x number of forgeworlds).

[Epistolary Exander]

On the topic of geneseed, I must obviously be doing something wrong, but I have been wondering this math problem for some time: the Emperor was interred in His golden throne 10,000 years ago, a space marine chapter consists of 1,000 marines, 1,000 marines worth of organs can be produced from a single set of progenoids in 55 years (pg. 17), and the tithe set by the Adeptus Mechanicus is 5% of geneseed production, why are there so few space marine chapters? Let's say, for argument's sake, the Adeptus Mechanicus worked at maximum efficiency that entire time (which they obviously didn't), but they only had an initial tithe and didn't get influxes of tithed geneseed every x number of years (trying to keep the math simple) and they only started with a single set of progenoids (they obviously had more available from the beginning). This is what I get when I math this out...

 

Year 00000 - 1 set of progenoids

Year 00055 - COMPLETION: 1,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 5 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 1 Chapter (+1).

Year 00110 - COMPLETION: 5,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 25 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 6 Chapters (+5).

Year 00165 - COMPLETION: 25,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 125 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 31 Chapters (+25).

Year 00220 - COMPLETION: 125,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 625 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 156 Chapters (+125).

Year 00275 - COMPLETION: 625,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 3,125 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 781 Chapters (+625).

Year 00330 - COMPLETION: 3,125,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 15,625 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 3,906 Chapters (+3,125).

Year 00385 - COMPLETION: 15,625,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 78,125 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 19,531 Chapters (+15,625).

 

If in 385 years, 15,625 Chapters were capable of being produced (at maximum efficiency, but with severe restrictions), why have only around 1,000 chapters of Space Marines been produced over a period of 10,000 years? I personally don't think it has anything to do with a limited supply of geneseed. I think they should be sitting on piles and piles of geneseed (and if one marine can make two, it never makes sense for a chapter with an apothecary left [or even one loaned to them] to go extinct). What is more likely to me is that they don't have enough equipment for more chapters (most of that technology being lost and the limited maximum output of x number of forgeworlds).

 

The tithe is 5% not the 0.5% in your above figures.

 

You are forgetting about how the process of creating a marine is not entirely fool proof with the success rate being a lot less than 100%, there are many factors limit the space marine numbers such as:

- Only the most exceptional male children are suitable to start the implantation process.

- The neophytes body's can reject the geneseed.

- Any of the 19 implants could mutate or not have the desired affect on the aspirant body leading to deformaties etc.

- Aspirant body may not be strong enough to handle the transformation into a space marine and so the aspirant dies.

- General geneseed could have mutated. etc.

 

More importantly I can not see any chapter willingly allowing their geneseed to be desecrated by turning it into something akin to mass production. On top of this; this approach would be ignoring one the key lessons to come out of the heresy that no one person should have the control of thousands/ tens of thousands of space marines ever again, for which your approach could easily lead to if control of the geneseed plants fell into the wrong hands.

[Messor]

That's a more understandable explanation of Leonaides' point, and I can get behind that idea. I guess it's just politics again.

[Micius]

The tithe is 5% not the 0.5% in your above figures.

Woops. Well doesn't that increase the number from 5 to 50 per thousand than? That's a lot more. Like, a lot more. I fixed the numbers...

 

Year 00000 - 1 set of progenoids

Year 00055 - COMPLETION: 1,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 50 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 1 Chapter (+1).

Year 00110 - COMPLETION: 50,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 1,000 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 51 Chapters (+50).

Year 00165 - COMPLETION: 1,000,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 50,000 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: Chapters 1,051 (+1,000).

Year 00220 - COMPLETION: 50,000,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 1,000,000 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: Chapters 1,001,051 (+1,000,000).

 

1,000 Space Marine Chapters composed of 1,000 Marines (less due to attrition). That makes for less than 1,000,000 marines. It is possible (at maximum production capacity with severe restrictions) to create 1,000,000 chapters worth of geneseed in 220 years. Again, this does not include geneseed they tithe from existing chapters after their founding and starts with only one set of progenoids when there were actually 9 legions to draw from (and remember, any marine that has served for 5 years has given back their geneseed [enough to replace 1:1], and any that has served 10 has given a second [enough to grow 2:1] and most in the legions had served for 10).

 

They say that chapters that fall underneath 25% (250 marines), are doomed to go extinct... how? There's more or less a 2:1 ratio from those 250 (500 sets of progenoids).

 

You are forgetting about how the process of creating a marine is not entirely fool proof with the success rate being a lot less than 100%, there are many factors limit the space marine numbers such as:

- Only the most exceptional male children are suitable to start the implantation process.

- The neophytes body's can reject the geneseed.

- Any of the 19 implants could mutate or not have the desired affect on the aspirant body leading to deformaties etc.

- Aspirant body may not be strong enough to handle the transformation into a space marine and so the aspirant dies.

- General geneseed could have mutated. etc.

55 years is the number given by the official Index Astartes article, not a figure I made up. But lets math this out again then. Lets say that only 1 out of 10 geneseed implantations were successful (if it was greater, chapters literally would not be able to replace casualties and in this case it is still pretty extreme [a full strength chapter only being able to grow 200 marines for every full replacement of the chapter]), so instead of initially needing 1,000 sets of progenoids, they needed 10,000. It's 55 years for every 1,000 sets of progenoids, so it is 550 years for every 10,000 sets of progenoids.

 

Year 00000 - 1 set of progenoids

Year 00550 - COMPLETION: 10,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 500 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 1 Chapter (+1).

Year 01100 - COMPLETION: 5,000,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 25,000 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 501 Chapters (+500).

Year 01650 - COMPLETION: 250,000,000 sets of progenoids. TITHE: 12,500,000 sets of progenoids. TOTAL: 25,501 Chapters (+25,000).

 

Seeing as geneseed failure is more likely a little under 1 of 2 implantations (so that a chapter could theoretically back to full strength over time, otherwise it would just slowly dwindle, which is not the case [eg. Ultramarines following the 1st Tyrannic War]) and 1 of 10 produced these large numbers, again, I don't believe it to be a lack of geneseed that prevents them from founding new chapters.

 

More importantly I can not see any chapter willingly allowing their geneseed to be desecrated by turning it into something akin to mass production. On top of this; this approach would be ignoring one the key lessons to come out of the heresy that no one person should have the control of thousands/ tens of thousands of space marines ever again, for which your approach could easily lead to if control of the geneseed plants fell into the wrong hands.

(1) Desecration via Mass Production: Do chapters have any say in whether or not successor chapters are bred from them? They can clearly request them in extreme examples (the Disciples of Caliban). In my imagination, tithed geneseed belongs to the Mechanicus as the check on SM power and only the High Lords of Terra can call for foundings (except when the Mechanicus founded a chapter) the check on the Mechanicus.

(2) Balance of Power: One person can only have control over 1,000 space marines. That is the check on the Space Marines. Were there 100,000 chapters each composed of 1,000 SMs with their own Chapter Master, the same checks would be in place as they are currently.

(3) Control of the Geneseed: The Adeptus Mechanicus already have large stockpiles of geneseed from tithing 5% of all the currently existing chapters (and can create more relatively quickly as the math demonstrates).

 

edit: fixed numbers

[Jacobius]

Interestingly, if we assume that one progenoid is used per organ then we come out at roughly 1000 chapters (25000/19) but as you say, this is all based on 1 progenoid and no pre existing chapters so the numbers could still be much higher...

 

I think there's enough in the fluff to give anyone enough wiggle room to say their chapter was raised quickly enough to counter a current fluff.

 

A current threat I mean...no idea why my phone did that.

 

-J-

[Messor]

Interestingly, if we assume that one progenoid is used per organ then we come out at roughly 1000 chapters (25000/19) but as you say, this is all based on 1 progenoid and no pre existing chapters so the numbers could still be much higher...

 

I think there's enough in the fluff to give anyone enough wiggle room to say their chapter was raised quickly enough to counter a current fluff.

-J-

 

Agreed, with the sole consideration of the time taken to train a new Chapter.

[Leonaides]

Also - dont forget that a chunk of that tithe is used for genetic/purity testing... Presumably this wold sufficiently damage it so as to be unusable? (Possiblythey implant a few sets of geneseed into test subjects and see if there are uniform abberations occuring, amongst other things?)

[Micius]

Interestingly, if we assume that one progenoid is used per organ then we come out at roughly 1000 chapters (25000/19) but as you say, this is all based on 1 progenoid and no pre existing chapters so the numbers could still be much higher...

I like that line of thinking, but remember, I only mathed out 1,650 years, so in 10,000 that number would be far greater. I think this is a case of GW giving us a faulty number, either the number of chapters (less likely in their canon) or the number of years it takes to accrue the geneseed to found a chapter (more likely in their canon).

 

Personally, I think GW has a poor understanding of the scale of the galaxy. There are 300 billion stars in the Milky Way Galaxy. Imperial space covers most of the Galaxy. Why are there only a million Imperial planets? Should there not be at least millions? I like to imagine the 40k verse 100 times larger than it is. A billion Imperial planets, hundreds of millions of Imperial Guard regiments (listed as hundreds of thousands in GW sources) and a million Space Marine Chapters (legions originally consisting of 10-250 million marines).

 

Agreed, with the sole consideration of the time taken to train a new Chapter.

Well, and the time necessary to outfit the marines with armor and vehicles.

 

Also - dont forget that a chunk of that tithe is used for genetic/purity testing...

Yeah, but I think working on 100,000 organs to a Chapter gives a fair bit of leeway since the rate of geneseed success is probably closer to 1:2 than 1:10 (the assumption I was working under for those numbers). And remember didn't include gains from tithe and started with a single set of progenoids.

[Messor]

Well, and the time necessary to outfit the marines with armor and vehicles.

 

Most of that I assume can be done during the production of organs/implantation process. The training, on the other hand, can't be done until the marine has passed his last physical.

[BERZERKER!]

I dont mean to throw a spanned in the works, but the figures here assume that 100% of the progenoid glands are recovered, do they not?

 

How many space marines are completely vaporised? How many bodies cannot be recovered, or are too badly damaged to recover the progenoid?

 

Somewhere in all of this there has to be a factor which accounts for progenoids lost to such things. I assume it would be a high figure, based on what space marines do.

[Micius]

I dont mean to throw a spanned in the works, but the figures here assume that 100% of the progenoid glands are recovered, do they not?

 

How many space marines are completely vaporised? How many bodies cannot be recovered, or are too badly damaged to recover the progenoid?

 

Somewhere in all of this there has to be a factor which accounts for progenoids lost to such things. I assume it would be a high figure, based on what space marines do.

The figures do not include unrecovered progenoids. Chapters are responsible for recovering their own geneseed and presumably never receive shipments from Mars besides the initial founding. The figures are focused on the ability of the Adeptus Mechanicus to found new chapters by implanting progenoids in human slaves (one would assume a near 100% recovery rate as Mars hasn't been attacked in quite some time).