Viable reasons for chapter creation

[Jacobius]

I like that line of thinking, but remember, I only mathed out 1,650 years, so in 10,000 that number would be far greater. I think this is a case of GW giving us a faulty number, either the number of chapters (less likely in their canon) or the number of years it takes to accrue the geneseed to found a chapter (more likely in their canon).

 

Oh I know :)

 

Like I said before, we may just have to accept the fact that there appears to be some major inconsistencies in the fluff and try and use them to our advantage.

 

I, for one, don't see any reason why the AdMech can't just do a massive geneseed dump for each founding, give each chapter more than enough for a 1000 marines, allowing for rejection, failure etc. Have the chapter store the excess geneseed until they've got the recruits to put it in and away they go.

 

What mystifies me is why the Imperium would allow a chapter like the Crimson Fists (2nd Founding, close to 10,000 years service to the Imperium) to die out when there must be a pile of CF geneseed on Mars. Obviously, it makes for a cool, tragic story the way it is, but you know what I mean. I understand that there are tight controls on the production of geneseed for political reasons, it's the same reason why the legions were split and the '1000 marine' rule was put in place but there's no excuse for not letting a chapter get back to strength as quickly as possible.

 

-J-

[Messor]

Like I said before, we may just have to accept the fact that there appears to be some major inconsistencies in the fluff and try and use them to our advantage.

 

I, for one, don't see any reason why the AdMech can't just do a massive geneseed dump for each founding, give each chapter more than enough for a 1000 marines, allowing for rejection, failure etc. Have the chapter store the excess geneseed until they've got the recruits to put it in and away they go.

 

Heh, and I'm just the opposite, I prefer to imagine that the Imperium has created many thousands more Chapters over the millennia, possibly in secret, and Mars doesn't hold onto much more gene-seed than is needed for new 'official' foundings. I like the idea of Chapter's having their own precious gene-seed stores. Most interesting for fleet based chapters.

[LordEnki]

There are a few references to chapters having gene-seed vaults. And it's not just the aspirant failing to assimilate the gene-seed you have to worry about, it's also death in training, death in combat before the gene-seed matures to be harvested (those two happen a LOT), it being destroyed, lost, stolen, and chemical or genetic damage...

 

The Fists would easily make a come back if they would cease combat operations, and not rush to re-build numbers (haste makes waste, as they say; see what happened to the Raven Guard...). But this is 40k, and most people in the IoM seem short sighted and blinded by pride.

[Rime]

It could possible be that Marines seem to suffer from death alot. Sometimes whole Chapters get wiped out due to their ships getting swallowed up by the Warp or genetic mutations or because someone looked at an Inquisitor the wrong way. Someone has to replace them.

 

As for the topic on 'Nids. They were first discovered by an Inquisitor from the Xeno's department (forget his name but its easily found). He named them after the planet where they were first encountered. So I don't think the Imperium knew of their coming, or made any contingency for their arrival. S'why the Ultramarines got kicked around so much and whole companies from other Chapters got wiped out.

[Lars Skywolf]

What mystifies me is why the Imperium would allow a chapter like the Crimson Fists (2nd Founding, close to 10,000 years service to the Imperium) to die out when there must be a pile of CF geneseed on Mars. Obviously, it makes for a cool, tragic story the way it is, but you know what I mean. I understand that there are tight controls on the production of geneseed for political reasons, it's the same reason why the legions were split and the '1000 marine' rule was put in place but there's no excuse for not letting a chapter get back to strength as quickly as possible.

 

-J-

 

Id like to think that would be part of the controls put in place by Guillimans decrees. As each chapter is capped at 1000 (with exceptions) and told that each marine has to serve as a scout, a devastator and then an assault marine before becoming a tactical marine (as well as other decrees that everybody else must weep that they aren't an Ultramarine etc), there is a possibility that as well as this Guilliman decreed that each chapter was in charge of itself, and so, in charge of keeping themselves going. This would, in a way, stop marines requesting/demanding some of their reserved gene seed from mars to bring their numbers up. Making them think twice before needlessly throwing marines into a conflict that could be won by careful planning. Each marine is a valuable tool and, unlike the imperial guard, you can't conscript people into becoming them, making each life valued.

 

Also in regards to some of the comments about why would you pick Imperial fist geneseed (or organs) with no sus-an membrane or belchers gland, or take a raven guard seed with a mutated Melanchromic organ? We may put it down to other traits, while Imperial fists may have no Sus-an Membrane or belchers gland we could probably presume that they have some other form of advantage, maybe heightened toughness or something of its like. Likewise the raven guard may have some ability to blend with the darkness encoded in their gene seed. we've already seen this with the blood angels, there still picked because while they can go into an uncontrollable bloodlust, there stronger, slightly faster and can live for longer than normal marines.

[Messor]

Something I just discovered:

 

What do we make of the 'Creation of Angels' section of the Blood Angels codex, pg. 12 "... Life support nodes are attached to them and for the next year they will be fed intravenously with a mixture of nutrients and the Blood of Sanguinius while the gene-seed does its work...When the Aspirants emerge from their sarcophagi they are...ready to begin their training as Space Marines."

 

A year to complete a marine(training not included)? Is this chalked up to writer oversight, or could there really be ways to hasten the process like that? I'm inclined to lean towards the former, simply because shrinking what has been described as a 12+ year process down to one year strains even my imagination.

[Arikel]

I don't think that the length of time it takes to create a new chapter is any impediment to the idea that the imperium creates chapters to face specific threats. The imperium operates on a massive scale, and a period of 50-100 years to create a counterforce seems a reasonable amount of time(even relatively quick) for a beauracracy the size of the imperium to come to any form of consensus and take active steps towards countering this "new" threat, considering it can take years for the administration to even respond to reports of invasion and entire generations can be born, conscripted, fight and die before rescue forces arrive.

 

Remeber also that even with the geneseed tithe, this actually isn't sent back to the chapter ever apparently, and is kept by the mechanicus for experimentation or creation of new chapters. Otherwise chapters like the Marines Errant(I think this is there name) who had their gene seed stores stolen by Huron, wouldn't be doomed to a slow death because they could no longer make recruits. One could say maybe they simply aren't on good terms with the High Lords or the Mechanicus or some other organization that would block their resupply, but nothing in the fluff indicates that is the case, sinmply that all the stocks they had to make marines were stolen and so they can't reproduce.

[Conn Eremon]

Also in regards to some of the comments about why would you pick Imperial fist geneseed (or organs) with no sus-an membrane or belchers gland, or take a raven guard seed with a mutated Melanchromic organ? We may put it down to other traits, while Imperial fists may have no Sus-an Membrane or belchers gland we could probably presume that they have some other form of advantage, maybe heightened toughness or something of its like. Likewise the raven guard may have some ability to blend with the darkness encoded in their gene seed. we've already seen this with the blood angels, there still picked because while they can go into an uncontrollable bloodlust, there stronger, slightly faster and can live for longer than normal marines.

 

A lot of the sources seem to suggest that, while gene-seed viability is a major factor, it all comes down to politics at the end of the day. I can recall at least one source that outright said that it was fortunate that the Ultramarines were the most pure since they're the most used. Which means that their purity isn't the reason why they're the most used. In that source, it was down to numbers. They had the most, therefore the most was made, and thankfully they happened to be from a pure source. Likewise, gene-seed originating from the Blood Angels and Imperial Fists are incredibly common despite what flaws they have because of their histories and legends. They all seem to originate with the actions of their Primarchs. Guilliman is the savior of the Imperium after the fall of the Emperor, Dorn was the Emperor's great protector, and Sanguinius sacrificed himself for the Emperor. The others, greatest heroes of the Imperium though may be, had far less of an impact on the Imperium. Therefore, the gene-seed originating from them is in the most favor, purity being important but doesn't have as much of an impact. Look at the other gene-seeds. Raven Guard and White Scars are relatively pure. Some flaws, but nowhere near as bad as the Fists or Blood Angels. But they're not used as often as those two. Dark Angels have gene-seed as pure as the Ultramarines, but they're not as used as the Fists or Blood Angels. More than likely, it's due to their secretive and paranoid natures. The only two gene-seed sources who can be honestly said as not used because of their impurities is the Salamanders and Space Wolves. But even with the Space Wolves, it might boil down to politics as well. They deviate too far from the Codex.

[Messor]

I don't think that the length of time it takes to create a new chapter is any impediment to the idea that the imperium creates chapters to face specific threats. The imperium operates on a massive scale, and a period of 50-100 years to create a counterforce seems a reasonable amount of time(even relatively quick) for a beauracracy the size of the imperium to come to any form of consensus and take active steps towards countering this "new" threat, considering it can take years for the administration to even respond to reports of invasion and entire generations can be born, conscripted, fight and die before rescue forces arrive.

 

Aye 50-100 years, on the scale of the Imperium, is fast for a beauracracy, but its not fast at all for besieged planets or systems. A lot of ground will be lost in that time, and each Chapter can only recover so much on its own. The loss of generations of PDF or Guard troops in that time is a testament to the impracticality of it. I don't know much about the Imperial Tarot, but I think the idea of a counter is best rolled in with that, where Chapter's are created to counter future threats.

[Arikel]

I don't think that the length of time it takes to create a new chapter is any impediment to the idea that the imperium creates chapters to face specific threats. The imperium operates on a massive scale, and a period of 50-100 years to create a counterforce seems a reasonable amount of time(even relatively quick) for a beauracracy the size of the imperium to come to any form of consensus and take active steps towards countering this "new" threat, considering it can take years for the administration to even respond to reports of invasion and entire generations can be born, conscripted, fight and die before rescue forces arrive.

 

Aye 50-100 years, on the scale of the Imperium, is fast for a beauracracy, but its not fast at all for besieged planets or systems. A lot of ground will be lost in that time, and each Chapter can only recover so much on its own. The loss of generations of PDF or Guard troops in that time is a testament to the impracticality of it. I don't know much about the Imperial Tarot, but I think the idea of a counter is best rolled in with that, where Chapter's are created to counter future threats.

 

Practicality doesn't really factor into the imperium (or 40k in general for that matter). We're talking about a government that can take thousands of years to notice and correct tax infractions, which they then collect using space marines as the debt collectors. The imperium just throws troops into the grinder and then will eventually send in the elites if the grinding is stalemated and/or the place is strategically important and they actually need it back any time soon.