6th edition question

[Grimtooth]

I am more pissed that in the wording of the FAQ.

 

They have made the WTT absolutely redundant not only on a rune priest, but on any IC with a WTT within that 24" bubble of the rune priest.

 

I know loads of SW players that don't use RPs, so it'll still have its uses.

 

And I know loads of SW players that use two RP.

 

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

[dswanick]

I have been thinking about this since I posted up the change and it only seems to piss me off the more I think about it.

 

The damn RAW, the exact reading of each of those things supports multiple use. This isn't like our rune weapons where theyput in an errata, this is just GW blatantly disregarding the wording for the WTT, the runic weapon, and Deny the Witch.

I don't think it's something to get that worked up about.

- Our Psykers are the same basic cost as any other SM Psyker. Yet they get to negate any enemy Psychic power, not just the ones directed at a friendly unit. They negate the power on a 4+, even if they aren't a higher level than the caster. And they do so to 24", instead of 12".

- Our WTT is now a 5pt "Psyker-in-a-can". Any IC can now be upgraded to a "Psyker" for the purposes of giving their attached unit a 5+ DTW.

- Yes, the WTT option on a Rune Priest is now redundant-dundant. But it's not quite so over the top now.

I'll miss the multiple attempts to negate. But I don't think this alteration is anything other than "ignore the RAW, and play it as it should be so both players have fun".

 

I'm more annoyed that Njal still only gets two BRB powers for his six Codex powers and is only PML2.

 

I am more pissed that in the wording of the FAQ.

 

They have made the WTT absolutely redundant not only on a rune priest, but on any IC with a WTT within that 24" bubble of the rune priest.

I hear you, and I feel your pain. But given the points costs involved, and the fact that every other Codex works this way already - I can't say I'm either surprised or outraged. The one thing that irks me is, as you mentioned, the complete disregard of RAW without so much as a "we know it's worded that way, but this way is more balanced". It's the same thing that annoys me about Snap Shots/Signums (Codex stat setting > BRB stat setting, but we want it the other way), etc...

[Grimtooth]

I have been thinking about this since I posted up the change and it only seems to piss me off the more I think about it.

 

The damn RAW, the exact reading of each of those things supports multiple use. This isn't like our rune weapons where theyput in an errata, this is just GW blatantly disregarding the wording for the WTT, the runic weapon, and Deny the Witch.

I don't think it's something to get that worked up about.

- Our Psykers are the same basic cost as any other SM Psyker. Yet they get to negate any enemy Psychic power, not just the ones directed at a friendly unit. They negate the power on a 4+, even if they aren't a higher level than the caster. And they do so to 24", instead of 12".

- Our WTT is now a 5pt "Psyker-in-a-can". Any IC can now be upgraded to a "Psyker" for the purposes of giving their attached unit a 5+ DTW.

- Yes, the WTT option on a Rune Priest is now redundant-dundant. But it's not quite so over the top now.

I'll miss the multiple attempts to negate. But I don't think this alteration is anything other than "ignore the RAW, and play it as it should be so both players have fun".

 

I'm more annoyed that Njal still only gets two BRB powers for his six Codex powers and is only PML2.

 

I am more pissed that in the wording of the FAQ.

 

They have made the WTT absolutely redundant not only on a rune priest, but on any IC with a WTT within that 24" bubble of the rune priest.

I hear you, and I feel your pain. But given the points costs involved, and the fact that every other Codex works this way already - I can't say I'm either surprised or outraged. The one thing that irks me is, as you mentioned, the complete disregard of RAW without so much as a "we know it's worded that way, but this way is more balanced". It's the same thing that annoys me about Snap Shots/Signums (Codex stat setting > BRB stat setting, but we want it the other way), etc...

 

I don't think you do get my point completely.

 

The way it is worded, any other unit that gets hit by a psychic power that got passed a rune priests runic weapon will not even get their Deny the Witch attempt.

[dswanick]

I don't think you do get my point completely.

 

The way it is worded, any other unit that gets hit by a psychic power that got passed a rune priests runic weapon will not even get their Deny the Witch attempt.

No, I do get that. My point is that it is no different from any other Marine Codex. Psychic Hoods used by a Librarian can only augment the target units native DtW roll. It doesn't offer multiple attempts to protect it. Any given target unit in any other Marine Dex will still only get one chance to not be affected by the power, on either a 6+ or a 5+. The new FAQ simply brings Runic Weapon/Wolf Tail Talismans/Deny the Witch into compliance with this standard. It still means ours is better:

- 6+ native, just like any other MEq.

- 5+ WTT, 5pts to have the equivalent of a Psy Hood protecting your unit.

- 4+ within 24" of a Runic Weapon, regardless of the relative PML of the Psykers in question. Including powers that a Psy Hood can't touch (Blessing).

 

Is it as good as it was in 5th? No.

Is it as agood as it was up until now? Definitely no.

Is it still better than other MEq? I believe so.

[Grimtooth]

I don't think you do get my point completely.

 

The way it is worded, any other unit that gets hit by a psychic power that got passed a rune priests runic weapon will not even get their Deny the Witch attempt.

No, I do get that. My point is that it is no different from any other Marine Codex. Psychic Hoods used by a Librarian can only augment the target units native DtW roll. It doesn't offer multiple attempts to protect it. Any given target unit in any other Marine Dex will still only get one chance to not be affected by the power, on either a 6+ or a 5+. The new FAQ simply brings Runic Weapon/Wolf Tail Talismans/Deny the Witch into compliance with this standard. It still means ours is better:

- 6+ native, just like any other MEq.

- 5+ WTT, 5pts to have the equivalent of a Psy Hood protecting your unit.

- 4+ within 24" of a Runic Weapon, regardless of the relative PML of the Psykers in question. Including powers that a Psy Hood can't touch (Blessing).

 

Is it as good as it was in 5th? No.

Is it as agood as it was up until now? Definitely no.

Is it still better than other MEq? I believe so.

 

In the case of something like nova that can hit a second unit, does the normal SM unit still get a chance to Deny the Witch if the first unit misses their Deny the Witch?

[dswanick]

I don't think you do get my point completely.

 

The way it is worded, any other unit that gets hit by a psychic power that got passed a rune priests runic weapon will not even get their Deny the Witch attempt.

No, I do get that. My point is that it is no different from any other Marine Codex. Psychic Hoods used by a Librarian can only augment the target units native DtW roll. It doesn't offer multiple attempts to protect it. Any given target unit in any other Marine Dex will still only get one chance to not be affected by the power, on either a 6+ or a 5+. The new FAQ simply brings Runic Weapon/Wolf Tail Talismans/Deny the Witch into compliance with this standard. It still means ours is better:

- 6+ native, just like any other MEq.

- 5+ WTT, 5pts to have the equivalent of a Psy Hood protecting your unit.

- 4+ within 24" of a Runic Weapon, regardless of the relative PML of the Psykers in question. Including powers that a Psy Hood can't touch (Blessing).

 

Is it as good as it was in 5th? No.

Is it as agood as it was up until now? Definitely no.

Is it still better than other MEq? I believe so.

 

In the case of something like nova that can hit a second unit, does the normal SM unit still get a chance to Deny the Witch if the first unit misses their Deny the Witch?

OK, I think I see where you're going with this. In your example, yes each normal SM squad gets to Deny the Witch if affected by a Nova. Success doesn't negate the power, however, it just negates it for that unit. Units which fail their DtW roll are still affected.

 

So lets consider a scenario where this is the situation - a group of two units each, one group from C:SM and the other from C:SW. In each group, one unit is led by a Psyker (Rune Priest/Librarian) and the other is led by a non-Psyker IC (in the C:SW case, the IC has a WTT). Each group gets hit by a Nova.

Codex: Space Marine

- Librarian uses his Psychic Hood to protect both units. Each unit gets a 5+ DtW roll. Odds of PP affecting - both: 44.4% / one : 44.4% / neither: 11.1%

- Librarian is PML +1 - both: 25% / one : 50% / neither: 25%

Codex: Space Wolves

- Rune Priest uses Runic Weapon to negate the PP - both: 50% / one : 0% / neither: 50%

- IC uses WTT to negate the PP - both: 66.6% / one : 0% / neither: 33.3%

- Each unit uses DtW to ignore the PP - both: 55.5% / one : 38.9% / neither: 5.5%

 

From this we can conclude that:

- the Rune Priest and his Runic Weapon have the best odds of protecting both units from the PP (50% that both will be protected by negating the power vs 11.1% PML= / 25% PML+) along with a greater risk of protecting neither (50% vs 44.4% PML= / 25% PML+).

- Deny the Witch has the worste chance of protecting both units (11.1% or 25% depending on the relative PML of the caster and the Librarian vs 33.3% for an IC w/WTT / 50% Runic).

- An IC with a WTT has a better chance of protecting both units (33.3% vs 11.1% PM= /25% PML+) as well as a greater risk of protecting neither (66.6% vs 55.5%/44.4%/25%).

 

From this, I draw the following opinion : The best defense is still the Rune Priest w/ Runic Weapon. The odds of protecting his unit as well as any units in range are better than the Librarians, although it is an all or nothing affair. This is both a benefit and a curse as the Librarian has to accept that some of the protected units will probably be affect, the more units the more likely some will fail their DtW. The Librarian is also limited to a 6" bubble of protection while the Rune Preist has a 24" bubble. And that Rune Priests bubble can stop any Psychic Power, not just malevolent ones.

If no Rune Priest is in range, an IC with a WTT has a better protective capability than Librarian. Again, it is an all or nothing affair. But as a 5pt upgrade to an IC, it is still worth the points to get the improved chance of ignoring enemy PPs.

 

Your thoughts?

[Grimtooth]

First of all, placing an IC with a WTT and/or Runic Armour into the second group is a cost in both points and a FOC slot that needs to be accounted for. In addition, if you go with just a bare bones GH pack, per the FAQ, they do not even get a Deny the Witch chance at all.

 

Now, I would have no problem preventing stacking of psychic defenses on one unit, for example a GH unit with a rune priest would naturally only get the runic weapon save, but not a WTT, Runic Armour, and Deny the Witch. However to deny further units any chance at their own WTT if an IC was attached or Deny the Witch if no IC was attached is not kosher in my opinion. And again, I would have no problem if the WTT and Deny the Witch didn't stack either for a unit with an attached IC with a WTT.

[dswanick]

First of all, placing an IC with a WTT and/or Runic Armour into the second group is a cost in both points and a FOC slot that needs to be accounted for. In addition, if you go with just a bare bones GH pack, per the FAQ, they do not even get a Deny the Witch chance at all.

 

Now, I would have no problem preventing stacking of psychic defenses on one unit, for example a GH unit with a rune priest would naturally only get the runic weapon save, but not a WTT, Runic Armour, and Deny the Witch. However to deny further units any chance at their own WTT if an IC was attached or Deny the Witch if no IC was attached is not kosher in my opinion. And again, I would have no problem if the WTT and Deny the Witch didn't stack either for a unit with an attached IC with a WTT.

"In addition, if you go with just a bare bones GH pack, per the FAQ, they do not even get a Deny the Witch chance at all." - but only if you've used a better Runic Weapon/Wolf Tail Talisman attempt on that power. The FAQ is not disallowing a unit from its Deny the Witch unless it has already had a better negation attempt made on its behalf.

If all you have is Deny the Witch you still get that, as per the BRB. What they're trying to prevent is the RW attempt (50%), then a WTT attempt (33.3%) or DtW (16.7%) for a total 66.7%/58.3% chance of protecting a given unit.

[Khine]

I could be wrong in thinking this but if you had three units in the area of a nova, say a GH with RP (a) and then two barebone GH squads ( b, c).

Couldn't you potentially trigger unit's B and C's Deny the witch rolls. Then after those two have passed or failed their tests, then you trigger the RPs runic weapon 4+ negate?

 

I only ask this because it seems that both would go off at the same instance so it is up to the controlling player how he decides to negate. Correct or cheating?

 

wither the other two units get the 4+ bubble negate would be another issue.

 

BRB page 67 - Manifesting Psychic powers.

 

2. Declare Target

 

3. Take Psychic Test

 

4. Deny the Witch

 

5. Resolve Psychic Power