egon1six Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Oops sorry about that! Belay my last! I missed the second troop choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 If needed they all combat squad and stay far away from the enemy to deny them their kill points, and go for those last turn objective grabbing turbo boosts. So you're telling me that I only need to kill 12 T5 models to make it impossible for me to lose, and that those 12 models represent roughly 1/3 of your army, and they're not going to fight me, they're just going to try to run and hide the whole time? And then, on turn five, they're going to crash an objective or two and hope that the game ends? Dude, I'd love to play you if that's your plan...pad my stats a little... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sviar Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 I want to thank all of you for the great replies. I have gotten some awesome info, list suggestion and some own ideas to try out. Should I order the the Ravenwing box or wait for the Codex to hit the shelf (usually a Codex release means new models)? Sorry for the late reply, real life issues came in the way this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 @Garath : I won't comment the objective tactic as Mark10k already did it well (just adding that now that every unit can have the availability to charge more than 6", you'll have lots of difficulties for hiding an entire game) I'll just comment that 36 heavy bolter shots, 4 assault cannons and 3 Cyclones concentrated on 2-3 units a turn are a lot of firepower. This is the extreme minimum limit for an army based on saturation. A friend of mine built a GK army with 96 S5+ shoots... more units, more tanks, I don't give 3 turns to this list against such opposition Don't forget that your opponent will often have more units than you so if you both concentrate, he will certainly win the fight. Moreover, your big squadrons are difficult to hide and not very resilient and you are obliged to concentrate all the shoot of each squadron on the same target. @ Sviar : I don't think they'll redo the RW set and even if they do it will be close to the DV bike squadron (hence really close from the current boxset). I don't think you'll make an error by grabing 6 bikes and an AB and equiping them with Melta and MM. The only doubt I have is concerning the sgt's wargear. Don't know if it's good to give him a PW, an Axe or a Fist... Really depends of the future rules and cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanSturrock Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 A 65 pt land speeder is a very expensive, very fragile platform for a lone heavy bolter. I prefer to maximise Attack Bike choices, personally, when I run Ravenwing. 50 pts for an outflanking or scouting multimelta, with two wounds, seems like a far better bargain. If you want heavy bolters, add dakka preds -- more expensive in our army than in others, but you're getting three times the firepower, more versatility, and more resilience. than the land speeder offers, for, what, 30 more points? Still a bargain. Now, adding three single speeders with typhoon / multimelta, or typhoon / heavy bolter, as your three Fast Attack choices -- that, I can get behind. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 On objective grabbing...12 bikes are more then enough to grab say 2 objectives - the ones on the friendly side of the table. In a game with 4 , that's half and now the land speeder and Samael have the simple task of killing 2 troop choices that are guarding the 2 opposing ones . Shooting 12 bikes that are hiding behind terrain ,turbo boosting etc is not an easy task with your heavy weapons only- bolters etc are not going to be in range...plus you got all those speeders to take care of. Bikes can take some objectives.Unless the opposition is fielding big blobs of IG or orks- but then Dark angels are in trouble no matter what you field. Remember, this army can move (the whole army) 12"...and very few armies can do that with all of their models. A single troops choice (with or without transport) can advance to my objectives or keep their own- there's no turning back or changing their mind- once they go forward , they need to keep going if they wanna get somewhere- bikes allow flexibility. Speeders are not in so much trouble, you can hide them behind terrain if you're not playing on teletibbies world(which you shouldn't do anyway) , with 2 hull points each - at least they're not going down fro glancing hits and have a 5+ save now. All those speeders are only 3 kill points, and in one mission ,the whole army is scoring. I'm not saying this list is the end of all lists, but it can work and have fun with - that's the point of the game. How about you guys Master Avoghai and march10k doing a ravewing list for us? What would you field? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 On objective grabbing...12 bikes are more then enough to grab say 2 objectives - the ones on the friendly side of the table. In a game with 4 , that's half and now the land speeder and Samael have the simple task of killing 2 troop choices that are guarding the 2 opposing ones . Shooting 12 bikes that are hiding behind terrain ,turbo boosting etc is not an easy task with your heavy weapons only- bolters etc are not going to be in range...plus you got all those speeders to take care of. Problem is : why should I bother taking care of LS as they can't hold objective? Cos that's also what lacks a pure RW list : contesting units. Either your units hold an objective either they have no effect on it. Bolters can be in range now that you can move and shoot once at 24". A tactical squad can move 12" in a rhino, disembark and shoot at your bikes : it's a 36" arc of shooting. You cannot also negate the existence of outflanking squads, or DSing ones... Most important thing is suppression of squads (as the 50% limit doesn't apply anymore) :you'll always need more shoot (or CC attacks) to kill 10 marines than to kill 6 bikes... What if you face a squad of fire dragons in a wave serpent? They'll be able to explode your squadron in one turn shoot. On the other side they won't kill enough tactical marines to prevent them charging with their PWed sgt and kill the firedragons during their following turn. What if you face terminators DSing right on the objective? Sure they won't hold it but they wil prevent you to do so as well. They will be free to kill your LS with their AC or CML goodness... What can you expect doing with 3 bikes squads and one melta per squad? (the same goes for nobz on bikes or other xenos equivalent) Bikes can take some objectives.Unless the opposition is fielding big blobs of IG or orks- but then Dark angels are in trouble no matter what you field. Remember, this army can move (the whole army) 12"...and very few armies can do that with all of their models. A single troops choice (with or without transport) can advance to my objectives or keep their own- there's no turning back or changing their mind- once they go forward , they need to keep going if they wanna get somewhere- bikes allow flexibility. The problem here is not re-affecting a squad to an objective, if I kill the 3 bikes that are holding your objective simply by DSing a unit or out flanking one, you won't have anything to reaffect. Hence the mobility in the following turns have no importance. Speeders are not in so much trouble, you can hide them behind terrain if you're not playing on teletibbies world(which you shouldn't do anyway) , with 2 hull points each - at least they're not going down fro glancing hits and have a 5+ save now. All those speeders are only 3 kill points, and in one mission ,the whole army is scoring. I really need to know how you do now to hide a 5 speeders squadron (and even a 3 speeders squadron) in a game using True LoS... Unless you use 1 foot tall buildings on all your gaming table it will be difficult... I play on a table looking like this, and I don't know how you could use more sceneries..; and so how you'll hide your LS... I'm not saying this list is the end of all lists, but it can work and have fun with - that's the point of the game. And I'm not saying that I'm looking for the end of all lists... Just that such list is very easy to counter cos IMO, you're over-ratting the resilience of a bike squadron and its abaility to avoid enemy's attacks in a game where terrains don't block LoS and where shooting range and charging range have potentialy raised since v6. How about you guys Master Avoghai and march10k doing a ravewing list for us? What would you field? I personnaly think that bikes are a little overpriced considering their loss of resilience in this new metagame and the fact that you pay for advantage that counter each others (ie : you pay for outflanking but lose it if you take a LS... To me, LS cost should be lowered as a counterpart of this loss) However I would surely try to maximise the 3 bike squadrons with 2 special weapons + AB I would complete with 3 typhoons, sammael on LS and a command squad with plasma/reductor to deal with big enemy units and have a little CCboost... Would look like this : Sammael on LS Bike squadron of 6 sgt with PF 2 plasmas Apothecary Banner squadron of 3 with 2 meltas AB with MM squadron of 3 with 2 meltas AB with MM squadron of 3 with 2 meltas AB with MM squadron of 3 with 2 flamers AB with MM Typhoon with MM Typhoon with MM Typhoon with MM I think we are on 1495pts... I have one more squadron than you and I still can add one more to reach your 1750pts limit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Turnbull Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I have to concur with Master Avoghai. It may be a fun list you are looking for, but I also don't feel that the list you have going will be effective even in a non-competitive game. Also, you mentioned that Land Speeders won't go down to glancing hits. I assure you, glancing hits will almost always be the cause of death for a Land Speeder against any army with basic str 4 weapons. They're not as formidable as in 5th edition. (Maybe this will warrant a points drop in Land Speeders in the future, who knows?) As for Master Avoghai's army list, he is just shy, if not equal, with the output of damage of your list. However, he has more models on the table, which will therefore take longer to defeat. He also has a decent amount of scoring units. He has 3 more bikers than I do, but my list is based on 5th edition when Tornados could class as scoring. Ah, nostalgia! This is with 250pts left to spend and the best part is that it looks fun to play with and against, as it is consistent with what you might expect to see on an actual battlefield. If you have actually come to this thread to take in and follow advice from other players, then take heed of Avoghai's post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 OK. I give in- 18 bikes will last longer then 12 speeders. There are exceptions to this rule, but most of the time , yes. The last codex before 4th ed one, when 40k knew nothing about scoring units and kill points - 9 speeders and Master plus 2 min squads of bikes was the way to go...and it's worth mentioning that each and every one of those speeders was able to carry an assault cannon...ah the good times :) I really wanted to build an army around them - as I love land speeders B) Thing about bikes is- they are not overcosted- each is packing a teleport homer :P - and we pay the points for it even in games where they're not being used Reducing the cost of the basic bike without a homer and leaving an option to include one would seem reasonable, as it was suggested earlier in this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Sammael on LS Bike squadron of 6 sgt with PF 2 plasmas Apothecary Banner squadron of 3 with 2 meltas AB with MM squadron of 3 with 2 meltas AB with MM squadron of 3 with 2 meltas AB with MM squadron of 3 with 2 flamers AB with MM Typhoon with MM Typhoon with MM Typhoon with MM I think we are on 1495pts... I have one more squadron than you and I still can add one more to reach your 1750pts limit I would make something very similar...I would give the sergeant in the 6-bike squadron a power sword and meltabombs. I'd put heavy bolters on the typhoons (got plenty of melta, but heavy bolters would help when firing frags, not to mention having longer range). I'd attach an interrogator chaplain on bike to the 6-bike squadron and increase the flamer squadron (if you're in flame range, you're in charge range...wanna charge or be charged?) to six bikes to get to 1750. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanSturrock Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Heh! I was thinking much the same, but power maul and meltabombs. And maybe more plasma on some squads. :devil: Anyway -- I too would love to see massed speeders being viable again, because I have lots, and I love how they look, and I used to really enjoy their power, often surprising survivability, and objective-contesting prowess, in 5th Edition. But in 6th, they're not that great, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I would make something very similar...I would give the sergeant in the 6-bike squadron a power sword and meltabombs. I'd put heavy bolters on the typhoons (got plenty of melta, but heavy bolters would help when firing frags, not to mention having longer range). I'd attach an interrogator chaplain on bike to the 6-bike squadron and increase the flamer squadron (if you're in flame range, you're in charge range...wanna charge or be charged?) to six bikes to get to 1750. About the HB, yeah I've hesitated too and when I look back to the list I must admit I've been heavy on MM... I'm more doubtful with the IC on bike : with the the AP4 crozius, Chappies lose a lot of effectivness in v6. In addition to that, when you see the special litanies of hate in DV, you can easily anticipate what will be the rules in the next codex. Re-rolling 1s when you already have TLed bolters mean that you've paid for a half-useful rule. Depends of the cost though but I really prefer put my money on a libby with the new powers... As for the sgt... don't know... I always fear facing a tough opposition where S4 of the PW is a little too random... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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