New FAQs

[*Furyou Miko]

I've never had a problem with the challenge rules like you guys are saying...

 

Also, it's a wonderful scene to have sergeant after sergeant throwing themselves at a hero to try and kill it while the soldiers struggle against the regular enemy warriors.

 

Plus, Challenges actually give me a chance in CC, especially with my Sisters. They mean I have a chance in hell of killing the enemy grunts before his sergeant/IC/whatever slaughters my entire squad.

[Brother Nathan]

anyone slightly confused with typhus? deamon weapon(i would asume uses the plauge bringers 4+ to wound?) forceweapon that is unweildly, but in his destroyer hive entry it says he dosent suffer the penalties for charging into cover but instead stikes at initive? surely he still should strike last and has to roll the disadvantages of difficult terrain...

[King Willy]

No confusion on typhus.

 

Unwieldy makes him strike at I1, The hive is more for the Defensive grenades now plus he gives nades to squad so Termies don't need to worry bout Terrain.

 

He still has to charge through cover like any other model, it just meant he still attacked at I5, it's a holdover from last edition.

[Brother Nathan]

thats my interpretation too, but when they went to the effort of rewriting his weapons stats etc they could have just looked at that part and thought about it... not that it matters noone ive ever seen used typhus in their armys(though i would if i played death guard)

[Morollan]

The challenge rules are supposed to create dramatic personal duels. They don't do that. Instead they create immersion breaking gamist moments when Trygons and Hive Tyrants and daemon princes are held up by turn after turn of seargents, and it makes power fists pointless because they'll never get to strike, and so on. And there's no punishment for losing a challenge, no matter how badly you lose it by - at least in fantasy you still count overkill wounds for combat res.

 

I tend to agree. Given the points cost of many of the cc beasts such as Abaddon it is painful to see him then get locked down turn after turn by sergeants who have almost no chance of killing him or even wounding him but are perfectly capable of stopping him from killing anything else. There should be a maximum of one challenge per side for the entire duration of combat. So yes, your noble Sergeant can throw himself in front of Abaddon and buy his unit some time but his Corporal can't then do the same thing, and then Sergeant Lemming from B Squad can't join in, followed by his Corporal, the Commissar and the Company Chimpanzee! Oh, and Tyranids should be completely immune to the challenge mechanic. What the hell does the Hive Mind care if Sergeant Sacrifice challenges a Hive Tyrant? Ignore it and eat the whole unit.

[Feste]

You guys keeping talking about being held up 'turn after turn'. How many sergeants are in your opponents squads? Unless you're multi-charging, or maybe taking on a Necron Royal Court, surely there can be only one of them? Even if they have a never ending tide of sergeants, surely Abaddon only needs one round take down a tac squad or whatever it is you're assaulting.

 

And if they've got a bag of infinite sergeants, surely you can get your own bag of infinite sergeants?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You guys keeping talking about being held up 'turn after turn'. How many sergeants are in your opponents squads? Unless you're multi-charging, or maybe taking on a Necron Royal Court, surely there can be only one of them? Even if they have a never ending tide of sergeants, surely Abaddon only needs one round take down a tac squad or whatever it is you're assaulting.

 

And if they've got a bag of infinite sergeants, surely you can get your own bag of infinite sergeants?

 

 

My Librarian got stuck in with an IG blob squad a couple weeks ago. He had a total of six challenge targets -- five sergeants and a Commissar. Marines can't do it, no -- but IG sure as Hell can.

[Azekai]

You guys keeping talking about being held up 'turn after turn'. How many sergeants are in your opponents squads? Unless you're multi-charging, or maybe taking on a Necron Royal Court, surely there can be only one of them? Even if they have a never ending tide of sergeants, surely Abaddon only needs one round take down a tac squad or whatever it is you're assaulting.

 

And if they've got a bag of infinite sergeants, surely you can get your own bag of infinite sergeants?

IG are the worst offenders, the sargeants and commissars within the blobs will keep you tied up for the whole game. But there are plenty of fairly cheap characters that can be built to 'soak' challenges for more killy characters. Chaos for example has the option of upgrading multiple characters within a squad to champions, who can then slow down enemy beatsticks for multiple assault phases.

[Brother Ambroz]

Hopefully our chosen champions will keep their character rule, as this would make them extremely helpful with these kinds of situations. Arm up each chosen differently to take challenges while your IC butchers the squad. Even though this still doesn't help our DP problem....

 

Honestly I think MCs shouldn't have a penalty for declining challenges. The fact that a thirster, carnifex or even a prince would feel 'inclined' to accept a duel is sort of dumb.

[Feste]

I really doubt that Chaos Chosen will be squads of characters, nor do I think you'll be able to upgrade them as such. If Paladins aren't characters, I can't see what squad will be.

 

Why would you refuse a challenge as an MC? It allows you to butcher the guy with the powerfist, and then take out his squad. The problem of 5ed was the hidden 'fist, challenges fix that. Sure, it takes a little longer but you can fight in assaults twice as often as you can shoot.

[Brother Ambroz]

I really doubt that Chaos Chosen will be squads of characters, nor do I think you'll be able to upgrade them as such. If Paladins aren't characters, I can't see what squad will be.

 

Why would you refuse a challenge as an MC? It allows you to butcher the guy with the powerfist, and then take out his squad. The problem of 5ed was the hidden 'fist, challenges fix that. Sure, it takes a little longer but you can fight in assaults twice as often as you can shoot.

 

Why the B) would paladins be characters over a squad of champions such as chosen? Sorry that doesn't make any sense.

 

Oh I don't know maybe the whole 5-6 character IG blob? People don't take fists nearly as often anymore. Nowadays its more power weapons than fists anyway. Consider this, a 250 point BT charges a squad of SMs with a fist. He gets challenged by a fist sergeant and kills him. Next turn kills half the squad. Following turn either they break (ATSKNF) or die. That's three turns wasted on a 100-150 point unit. Chances are the MC will get mowed down the following turn.

[Urdokadin]

I sincerely doubt we're going to have a problem getting bogged down in challenges come the new codex. If dark apostles are characters then a given squad could feasibly have two characters ( champion+ apostle ) to eat challenges against a lord or sorc.

[Brother Ambroz]

Plus, they went through in the newest FAQ and removed characters from every unit (aka paladins etc.) except for our terminators. If they were thorough enough to remove everyone's except ours, do you really think its just a typo?

[Azekai]

They probably forgot. Ours are not like that by default, and were not singled out beforehand to get upgraded to all-character units. I smell an oversight.

However, we do have to pay a lot for 4+ wound shenanigans.

[Brother Ambroz]

Why is it that you think they forgot?

[Sception]

Mostly because our unit of characters are all individual character upgrades, and making the distinction would have been a hassle, especially with a new book right around the corner that will probably avoid the issue to begin with.

[zyl-]

Consider this, a 250 point BT charges a squad of SMs with a fist. He gets challenged by a fist sergeant and kills him. Next turn kills half the squad. Following turn either they break (ATSKNF) or die. That's three turns wasted on a 100-150 point unit. Chances are the MC will get mowed down the following turn.

 

I realize we are looking at the down side of this, but couldn't it easily work to our advantage to challenge like this? For instance, if the squad breaks on their turn and falls back, you now have a free charge next round without being targetable during the previous shooting phase. Especially true vs Tau, which can lose a whole fire line to 1 berzerker.

[Feste]

Mostly because our unit of characters are all individual character upgrades, and making the distinction would have been a hassle, especially with a new book right around the corner that will probably avoid the issue to begin with.

What malisteen said. And also, that's Terminators. Not Chosen, so even now Chosen aren't units of characters

 

And read the background, Paladins are the most super-duper unit of marines the loyalists have. They're the epitome of elite rock hard units, specifically referencing the old tales of Charlemagne's Paladins. They got made characters from the off, because they are just that awesome.

 

Comparatively Chosen are a little too varied to be entire units of characters. Chosen Terminators, if they happen, seem just a bit too cut-and-pasted across from Paladins to not follow what they do.

 

And please don't swear at me, even in emoticons, it's just rude and not needed.

 

And just to confirm then, the problems with multi-challenges mostly reside in blob squads? Well surely your sergeant can be killing their sergeants, while your Lord kills everything else. Anyway, after charging a blob squad anything that's reducing the number of power swords running around that unit is a good thing. I'm not even sure charging them with infantry is a good idea, isn't this what Defilers are for? Something nice and invulnerable to power weapons.

[Brother Ambroz]

Mostly because our unit of characters are all individual character upgrades, and making the distinction would have been a hassle, especially with a new book right around the corner that will probably avoid the issue to begin with.

What malisteen said. And also, that's Terminators. Not Chosen, so even now Chosen aren't units of characters

 

And read the background, Paladins are the most super-duper unit of marines the loyalists have. They're the epitome of elite rock hard units, specifically referencing the old tales of Charlemagne's Paladins. They got made characters from the off, because they are just that awesome.

 

Comparatively Chosen are a little too varied to be entire units of characters. Chosen Terminators, if they happen, seem just a bit too cut-and-pasted across from Paladins to not follow what they do.

 

And please don't swear at me, even in emoticons, it's just rude and not needed.

 

And just to confirm then, the problems with multi-challenges mostly reside in blob squads? Well surely your sergeant can be killing their sergeants, while your Lord kills everything else. Anyway, after charging a blob squad anything that's reducing the number of power swords running around that unit is a good thing. I'm not even sure charging them with infantry is a good idea, isn't this what Defilers are for? Something nice and invulnerable to power weapons.

 

How would it have been a hastle? They're champions, they're supposed to be varied.

 

I have the GK codex, I've read the background. That's Ward fluff, in case you've forgotten. The same guy that invented Draigo? Yeah that fluff abomination. Unless you actually support that. Then all power to you.

 

Again, read the first sentences.

 

You're a big boy, it's emotes, you'll get over it.

 

I was talking about MCs, incase you missed the part where I said MCs. Lords are a different story, they can join squads, princes can not.

 

@Malisteen - Actually it wouldn't. In a challenge like this, where I said SM (who are our most common enemy) would likely auto fall back due to ATSNKF, would break, therefore opening the MC up to all the weapons your opponents army has to fire at you.

[Feste]

How would it have been a hastle? They're champions, they're supposed to be varied.

I think it's mainly that working towards each squad only having one character leading it. Nobz/Wolfguard are only characters when leading units, not in full groups. However, they're either leaders or in a homogeneous unit; Terminators can have 3 Champions and 2 standard terminator, arguable one of the champions should be the character but which one? Bearing in mind the assumption that they're moving away from squads of characters.

 

I have the GK codex, I've read the background. That's Ward fluff, in case you've forgotten. The same guy that invented Draigo? Yeah that fluff abomination. Unless you actually support that. Then all power to you.

Really? Ward hate is sooo 2010. Anyway, Draigo and Paladins while related and not the exact same thing. And whether or not you like it, it's how GW view the world and in their world Paladins are super-awesome champions.

 

You're a big boy, it's emotes, you'll get over it.

Mate, I've heard a lot worse than a self-censored whatever-it-was. Whether or not I'm mortally offended and likely to keel over in shock is beside the point, I thought that we were trying to have a civil conversation and it'd be nice if it can remain so. Passive-aggressive swearing like that just makes the place a little less pleasant to be in.

 

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm really not offended or anything; nor am I looking for an argument. Sorry if I came across a little aggressive myself.

 

I was talking about MCs, incase you missed the part where I said MCs. Lords are a different story, they can join squads, princes can not.

So was I initially. I don't think everyone is talking about MCs though, and I disagree with you on how bad challenges are for them. Also, what SM squads are 100-150pts? Combat squads, sure. Maybe a Devastator squad? I'm just trying to picture your scenario here.

 

@Malisteen - Actually it wouldn't. In a challenge like this, where I said SM (who are our most common enemy) would likely auto fall back due to ATSNKF, would break, therefore opening the MC up to all the weapons your opponents army has to fire at you.

You're assuming they'll get away. You can catch them and keep them in CC, one place that a Slaaneshi Prince has an advantage I guess. And that's still better than him getting into CC and punked by a hidden powerfist. He's still alive, they still need to spend a turn shooting and hoping to kill him.

[greatcrusade08]

if your taking abaddon with a unit make sure that unit has a champ or someone to accept the first challenge, win or lose abby will kock seven shades out of the enemy unit so even if they hold and he has to fight a challenge in round two the enemy unit itself will be at severly reduced strength.

 

it works wonders with calgar and honour guard, the champ HAS to fight challanges leaving calgar and his 7 power fist attacks (with re-rollable wounds) to hulk smash the enemy units

[Sception]

babysitters help*, sure. You can get around this annoying challenge rule. It's just, it shouldn't be there as an obstacle in the first place - and that's what it is most of the time - an obstacle, an annoyance, a delay, something in the way of the game, rather than contributing to it. At least, that's the way it feels to me. It's like, you're driving and there's this big tree stump in the middle of the road. Yeah, you can drive off the road to get around it, but it shouldn't be there in the first place. Challenges might have been a cool idea for dramatic throwdowns between hated foes, but that's just not how the mechanics they wrote play out in practice in my experience.

 

Also, it's yet another strike against melee in this edition, even above the fact that ranged units are already getting generally at least one more shooting phase, plus an overwatch, while melee units are generally seeing at least one fewer available round of close combat in the game, due to changes to transports, reserves, fleet, & the likes. And considering that we're supposed to be a heavily melee focused army, and are heavily pushed towards challenges (even though they're more an albatross around the neck of combat characters rather than a boon to them), and we're the first book of the new edition - so likely the designers don't even understand yet how significantly they've weakened close combat in 6th edition, well, lets just say that in addition to not being overly fond of the challenge rules in their own right, I'm also particularly worried from the perspective of a chaos player.

 

*Of course, tyranids have it worse, since they don't have babysitters for their tyrants.

[Hellrender]

I thought one always brought babysitters for their babies? 0.o Most of those babysitters normally have a Boss walking around to clean the poop!

[Brother Nathan]

if you throw a single character at an imperial guard squad you deserve to get held up. characters arnt necessary for killing their squads, normal marines will go through them. id look at it as a good way to get rid of the hidden power weapon/fists/ commasars that make it harder to make the unit run. the more the opponent invests into a unit the harder it should be to kill and the more it should take to get rid of the unit. abbadon would surely be better thrown against their veichles then their infantry...

[Hellios]

if you throw a single character at an imperial guard squad you deserve to get held up. characters arnt necessary for killing their squads, normal marines will go through them. id look at it as a good way to get rid of the hidden power weapon/fists/ commasars that make it harder to make the unit run. the more the opponent invests into a unit the harder it should be to kill and the more it should take to get rid of the unit. abbadon would surely be better thrown against their veichles then their infantry...

 

Ok well maybe you didn't throw a character at the imperial guard squad... Maybe the IG player has a split deployment Most of his army on one side and some big guns and a blob squad as bubble wrap. The firepower from the smaller part of his army is too great to ignore but the board is 4 by 6 and you don't have time to go from one to another even if you could take the fire power.

 

So maybe you deploy most of your force to take his main force and then send your faster units to tackle the smaller part of his force with hopes of them coming to aid your main force when they have finished. So your winged daemon prince ends up involved with that blob squad... before or after he has dealt with the big guns... Sucks if they have 10 characters in one squad... sucks even if they have a more reasonable 5.

 

I'm not saying it will be a big problem most of the time. It seems silly however that huge monsters so of which won't even care about honour can be tied down by sgts... Hell a large enough squad with enough sgts/commissars could tie down a Wraithlord for an entire game despite not having any weapons that could harm it... It might serve the Eldar player right if he charged into that unit but sometimes you have no choice or *shock horror* your opponent uses their initiative.