New FAQ's are up...Wolf GUard are no longer characters.

[MalachiOfRuss]

So shouldn't Wolf Claws allow re-rolls of to-hit or to-wound with say a Power Fist, Thunder Hammer, or Frost Weapon by this reasoning?

No, because they referring to the Dreadknight's ability to make Smash attacks and asking if the rerolls from the Sword still apply.

[Arthanor]

No, because they referring to the Dreadknight's ability to make Smash attacks and asking if the rerolls from the Sword still apply.

If a NDK makes smash attacks, it would also halve those attacks, meaning it would make 2. Since the question states that it has 4 attacks, it must be making its normal 3 attacks +1 for having two weapons.

 

So shouldn't Wolf Claws allow re-rolls of to-hit or to-wound with say a Power Fist, Thunder Hammer, or Frost Weapon by this reasoning?

The rule for the sword states that "a model with a NGS" does X,Y,Z. So it does not need to be used in order to grant bonuses. It therefore combines with the fist (the NDK's other weapon) and grants crazy attacks.

 

By opposition, the rules for the wolf claw state that it "allows the wielder to" do X or Y, meaning you have to be using it. If you are using it, you are not using the other weapon, so it's either, not both, bonuses. Note also that, since the wolf claw is a LC, thus a specialist weapon, it can not benefit (+1A) from being paired with a frost weapon, although the power fist and thunder hammer do benefit since they are specialist weapons as well.

[Stormbrow II]

How do Maelstroms, Novas and Beams– or indeed any weapon

that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Flyers

Zooming and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures?

 

Njal's abilities are not weapons, they are abilities.

 

Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

[Emphasis mine] I think that is sufficient to dick over Njal's LoT table effects upon Flyers. Sadly. Feel free to argue it but I reckon it'll be like hitting your head off a brick wall. :)

 

Oddly enough, they've left Runic Weapons alone and nerfed Njal's much like the Wolf Priest vs Marine Chaplain Crozius debacle a few months ago so that Njal has a Stave and the rest of the RP have UFW. How confusing.

 

BTW Ramses, I did warn you about many suspect changes that were on the way (such as Dante's Axe) so I'm not surprised GW would do all they could to force Wolf players all to buy Flyers/anti-Flyer units to compensate for the lack of them in our lists.

 

I've got some thoughts posted up here.

[Grimtooth]

How do Maelstroms, Novas and Beams– or indeed any weapon

that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Flyers

Zooming and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures?

 

Njal's abilities are not weapons, they are abilities.

 

Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

[Emphasis mine] I think that is sufficient to dick over Njal's LoT table effects upon Flyers. Sadly. Feel free to argue it but I reckon it'll be like hitting your head off a brick wall. :(

 

Oddly enough, they've left Runic Weapons alone and nerfed Njal's much like the Wolf Priest vs Marine Chaplain Crozius debacle a few months ago so that Njal has a Stave and the rest of the RP have UFW. How confusing.

 

BTW Ramses, I did warn you about many suspect changes that were on the way (such as Dante's Axe) so I'm not surprised GW would do all they could to force Wolf players all to buy Flyers/anti-Flyer units to compensate for the lack of them in our lists.

 

I've got some thoughts posted up here.

 

And those characteristics that you emboldened are for weapon attacks. That is the only way that rule can be read because you have zero permission to extend it to anything except weapon attacks with those characteristics.

[dswanick]

No, because they referring to the Dreadknight's ability to make Smash attacks and asking if the rerolls from the Sword still apply.

If a NDK makes smash attacks, it would also halve those attacks, meaning it would make 2. Since the question states that it has 4 attacks, it must be making its normal 3 attacks +1 for having two weapons.

 

So shouldn't Wolf Claws allow re-rolls of to-hit or to-wound with say a Power Fist, Thunder Hammer, or Frost Weapon by this reasoning?

The rule for the sword states that "a model with a NGS" does X,Y,Z. So it does not need to be used in order to grant bonuses. It therefore combines with the fist (the NDK's other weapon) and grants crazy attacks.

 

By opposition, the rules for the wolf claw state that it "allows the wielder to" do X or Y, meaning you have to be using it. If you are using it, you are not using the other weapon, so it's either, not both, bonuses. Note also that, since the wolf claw is a LC, thus a specialist weapon, it can not benefit (+1A) from being paired with a frost weapon, although the power fist and thunder hammer do benefit since they are specialist weapons as well.

But this makes no sense, "a model with"/"is a Lightning Claw that allows the wielder to" does not equal "attacking with this weapon allows". The model has a NGS/Wolf Claw, neither weapons special rule is worded to require that the model be using it to attack with...

 

How do Maelstroms, Novas and Beams– or indeed any weapon

that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Flyers

Zooming and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures?

 

Njal's abilities are not weapons, they are abilities.

 

Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

[Emphasis mine] I think that is sufficient to dick over Njal's LoT table effects upon Flyers. Sadly. Feel free to argue it but I reckon it'll be like hitting your head off a brick wall. :(

 

Oddly enough, they've left Runic Weapons alone and nerfed Njal's much like the Wolf Priest vs Marine Chaplain Crozius debacle a few months ago so that Njal has a Stave and the rest of the RP have UFW. How confusing.

 

BTW Ramses, I did warn you about many suspect changes that were on the way (such as Dante's Axe) so I'm not surprised GW would do all they could to force Wolf players all to buy Flyers/anti-Flyer units to compensate for the lack of them in our lists.

 

I've got some thoughts posted up here.

 

And those characteristics that you emboldened are for weapon attacks. That is the only way that rule can be read because you have zero permission to extend it to anything except weapon attacks with those characteristics.

 

Further to this line of reasoning, the FAQ would prevent Mission Special Rule from affecting Flyers (such as the Lightning Storm special rule on Pg.367).

[Arthanor]

The rule for the sword states that "a model with a NGS" does X,Y,Z. So it does not need to be used in order to grant bonuses. It therefore combines with the fist (the NDK's other weapon) and grants crazy attacks.

 

By opposition, the rules for the wolf claw state that it "allows the wielder to" do X or Y, meaning you have to be using it. If you are using it, you are not using the other weapon, so it's either, not both, bonuses. Note also that, since the wolf claw is a LC, thus a specialist weapon, it can not benefit (+1A) from being paired with a frost weapon, although the power fist and thunder hammer do benefit since they are specialist weapons as well.

But this makes no sense, "a model with"/"is a Lightning Claw that allows the wielder to" does not equal "attacking with this weapon allows". The model has a NGS/Wolf Claw, neither weapons special rule is worded to require that the model be using it to attack with...

That is my interpretation only of course. "A model with" only implies possession, thus even if the model had two other weapons and was using them, by the wording it would still benefit from the NGS. Wielding a weapon implies to be using it, not simply possession. Therefore you need to be attacking with that weapon to benefit from the rules.

 

That being said, the argument could be made that, if a model is "wielding a Thunder Hammer and a Wolf Claw" it is indeed the wielder of both weapons and qualifies for the rerolls. Thus he could make thunder hammer attacks that reroll to hit... ouch

[Stormbrow II]

Here's the brick wall, boi.

 

Q: How do maelstroms, nova and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming and ? (p13)

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas

 

That is the only way that rule can be read because you have zero permission to extend it to anything except weapon attacks with those characteristics.

I think the italicised bit gives a distinction between weapons and attacks (in general) which is where LoT falls down as they're attacks with areas of effect, which are listed. Imotekh is in the same boat with his Storms.

 

So yes, I am arguing that Njal is nerfed. No, I don't know why either.

[Grimtooth]

Here's the brick wall, boi.

 

Q: How do maelstroms, nova and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming and ? (p13)

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas

 

That is the only way that rule can be read because you have zero permission to extend it to anything except weapon attacks with those characteristics.

I think the italicised bit gives a distinction between weapons and attacks (in general) which is where LoT falls down as they're attacks with areas of effect, which are listed. Imotekh is in the same boat with his Storms.

 

So yes, I am arguing that Njal is nerfed. No, I don't know why either.

 

And what I am saying is that it is a directed question regarding maelstroms, nova and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically to which you are given a direct answer regarding those specific things. As LoT is absolutely none of those things, it is will still affect flyers.

 

You are then specifically told again what is included, This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas, of which again are all weapons or count as firing a weapon per the rules.

[Stormbrow II]

maelstroms, nova and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically

The question asked lists weapons and you've used the word weapon in your sentence but second sentence of the response on page 3 of the BRB FAQ uses the word attack, as in any attack, and then lists area of effect attacks as one of those that won't affect a Flyer.

 

That's a big difference from weapons affecting Flyers as LoT is not a weapon (we concur) but it is an attack.

 

Edit.

Effects vs attacks: more fuel for the fire.

[dswanick]

maelstroms, nova and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically

The question asked lists weapons and you've used the word weapon in your sentence but second sentence of the response on page 3 of the BRB FAQ uses the word attack, as in any attack, and then lists area of effect attacks as one of those that won't affect a Flyer.

 

That's a big difference from weapons affecting Flyers as LoT is not a weapon (we concur) but it is an attack.

But would you also agree that the BRB Lightning Storm on Pg.367 would also be unable to affect fliers?

[Valerian]

I think it's interesting that they define Njal's weapon as "Runic weapon (stave)", but I can't see anywhere else that Runic Weapons have physical properties beyond being Unusual Force Weapons, e.g. counting as Swords, Axes etc.

 

That is of course, unless I've missed something! :P

 

 

Do you think we'll end us seeing this in the future for all Runic Weapons?

 

If you ask me, the fact that they designate Njal's Runic Weapon as a stave is irrelevant, and has no bearing on the game. A Runic Weapon of whatever shape or style remains an Unusual Force Weapon, and would maintain the characteristics of such, unless there is some further definitions/designations done in these new FAQs/Errata/Amendments that I haven't read about yet.

 

Valerian

[Valerian]

That's a big difference from weapons affecting Flyers as LoT is not a weapon (we concur) but it is an attack.

 

Looking at Njal's rules, the Lord of Tempests table simply calls the results, "game effects". Those effects just happen to only affect enemy units. They behave like attacks, but are not defined as such. I'm with BR on this one - for now it appears as though enemy Flyers are not immune to the effects of Lord of Tempests results like they would be if he were actually casting a psychic power.

 

V

[Emptyedens]

That's a big difference from weapons affecting Flyers as LoT is not a weapon (we concur) but it is an attack.

 

Looking at Njal's rules, the Lord of Tempests table simply calls the results, "game effects". Those effects just happen to only affect enemy units. They behave like attacks, but are not defined as such. I'm with BR on this one - for now it appears as though enemy Flyers are not immune to the effects of Lord of Tempests results like they would be if he were actually casting a psychic power.

 

V

 

I'm with you both on this one, it isn't an attack which is controlled, set off, shot, or anything else. It is more like a terrain effect or one of the death worlds special rules.

[Valerian]

That's a big difference from weapons affecting Flyers as LoT is not a weapon (we concur) but it is an attack.

 

Looking at Njal's rules, the Lord of Tempests table simply calls the results, "game effects". Those effects just happen to only affect enemy units. They behave like attacks, but are not defined as such. I'm with BR on this one - for now it appears as though enemy Flyers are not immune to the effects of Lord of Tempests results like they would be if he were actually casting a psychic power.

 

V

 

I'm with you both on this one, it isn't an attack which is controlled, set off, shot, or anything else. It is more like a terrain effect or one of the death worlds special rules.

 

Yep, Njal Stormcaller, otherwise known as, "Walking Death World."

 

V

[Chef Wulfen]

Ok if the great wolfs weapon is now a frost blade when weilded normal does it still count as being a power fist when used 2handed?

[Wyrd-maker]

Ok if the great wolfs weapon is now a frost blade when weilded normal does it still count as being a power fist when used 2handed?

 

Yes. The clarification was only for when he chose to use the axe as a frost weapon, if it would count as a frost BLADE or frost AXE...which per the BRB would have different stats. The new FAQ simply states that when he chooses it to be a frost weapon it is, in fact, a BLADE...striking at Int and +1 strength. The power fist attack can also still be used.

[DAWARIS1]

Ok if the great wolfs weapon is now a frost blade when weilded normal does it still count as being a power fist when used 2handed?

 

yes all they did was clarify that you ignore the WYSIWYG thing with it, i.e if it is used one handed it is a frost blade not a frost axe, exactly how the codex states, and if it used 2 handed it is a power fist, again exactly how the codex states.

[DAWARIS1]

I think it's interesting that they define Njal's weapon as "Runic weapon (stave)", but I can't see anywhere else that Runic Weapons have physical properties beyond being Unusual Force Weapons, e.g. counting as Swords, Axes etc.

 

That is of course, unless I've missed something! :)

 

 

Do you think we'll end us seeing this in the future for all Runic Weapons?

 

If you ask me, the fact that they designate Njal's Runic Weapon as a stave is irrelevant, and has no bearing on the game. A Runic Weapon of whatever shape or style remains an Unusual Force Weapon, and would maintain the characteristics of such, unless there is some further definitions/designations done in these new FAQs/Errata/Amendments that I haven't read about yet.

 

Valerian

 

i would argue that it is not a unique force weapon. the rule for the unique force weapon states "If a force weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, ..." and i think therein lies the key to it all. A runic weapon DOESN'T have unique close combat rules, it has unique psyker rules, and the codex clearly states that a runic weapon is a force weapon that has an additional rule. it doesn't have it's own close combat profile it uses what is in the rule book for a force weapon.

 

another way to look at it, if you do say that it is a unique force weapon, is that it also says that you treat it as "an AP3 Weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in it's entry". So if you go to the codex and look at it's profile it tells you that it follows the same profile as a force weapon with an additional rule, to get characteristics you need to go back the the rulebook and there you see that there are 3 different force weapons defined by their weapon type, i.e axe, sword and stave, the profile of this would then supersede the AP3.

 

Look at Arjack's Foehammer, which is a unique power weapon, it give's you the profile for if you throw it. But what about in close combat? being a unique power weapon it has AP3, but in it's profile it says that it is a Thunder Hammer, so the AP3 of being a unique power weapon gets superseded by it being a thunder hammer.

 

this then means that by defining njal's weapon as a runic weapon (stave) is perfectly logical as it tells you what profile to use for it. it also then means that on a standard Rune Priest the modelling of the weapon also distinguishes what it is.

[Grey Mage]

would argue that it is not a unique force weapon. the rule for the unique force weapon states "If a force weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, ..." and i think therein lies the key to it all. A runic weapon DOESN'T have unique close combat rules,

Wrong.

 

Runic Weapons wound Daemons on a 2+, regardless of toughness. Thats a unique CC rule.

[eyeslikethunder]

!

 

The question I submitted about the Wolf Standard applying to Overwatch rolls is in there word for word!

 

 

A few of mine are word for word too

 

read it going ooh thats mine and that and that

[eyeslikethunder]

And what I am saying is that it is a directed question regarding maelstroms, nova and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically to which you are given a direct answer regarding those specific things. As LoT is absolutely none of those things, it is will still affect flyers.

 

You are then specifically told again what is included, This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas, of which again are all weapons or count as firing a weapon per the rules.

 

I think the GW RAI is quite clear you may not hit flyers automatically(So open your wallets, bend over and buy lots more flyers cause we have not sold enough)Aslo hinted at by the FLakk statement

 

I can see there are some undefined matters ich lead to some RAW possibilities wso we can ask again but I cant see it going Njals way

 

I suspect the lightning in rulebook will be allowed to hit but not imotek or Njal

[dswanick]

And what I am saying is that it is a directed question regarding maelstroms, nova and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically to which you are given a direct answer regarding those specific things. As LoT is absolutely none of those things, it is will still affect flyers.

 

You are then specifically told again what is included, This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas, of which again are all weapons or count as firing a weapon per the rules.

 

I think the RAI is quite clear you may not hit flyers automatically(So open your wallets, bend over and buy lots more flyers cause we have not sold enough

I don't know. I think the RAI is clear that only Shooting Attacks (including Psychic Shooting Attacks) can't autromatically hit Flyers. Njal and Imotekh produce weather effects similar to those found in the BRB on Pgs.366-369. So unless your willing to argue that Flyers ignore the damaging effects of those special rules, you can't argue that they ignore these.

[eyeslikethunder]

I suspect if you asked GW directly they would say no njal cant hit them as they want to sell fliers

 

I am going to re-ask on OBEL so I can ask on this as well

 

 

I can see the logic in lightning and tornados hitting flyers.

 

I think murderous hurricane should affect flyers but GW dont seem to agree

[dswanick]

I think murderous hurricane should affect flyers but GW dont seem to agree

I think you mean Tempest's Wrath?

[DAWARIS1]

would argue that it is not a unique force weapon. the rule for the unique force weapon states "If a force weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, ..." and i think therein lies the key to it all. A runic weapon DOESN'T have unique close combat rules,

Wrong.

 

Runic Weapons wound Daemons on a 2+, regardless of toughness. Thats a unique CC rule.

 

 

ah yes true, i overlooked that, but i think my second point is still valid.