Mephiston has.. 3 BRB powers now?

[7 Mile]

noticed no one saw that mastery level helps with your deny the witch dispel, ML3 means against most enemy psychers you have a greater chance of stuffing an incoming power.

[Taranis]

Everytime I swap out the codex powers for two rolls out of the BRB I am disappointed. Just stick with the codex powers and be a happy BA player.

This is mostly my experience too. B)

[vahouth]

Everytime I swap out the codex powers for two rolls out of the BRB I am disappointed. Just stick with the codex powers and be a happy BA player.

This is mostly my experience too. B)

 

And mine as well.

Also the last time I used BRB power with him, I missed the Wings of Sanguinius soooo bad.

[mcginn]

To be honest I'm not convinced its even worth rolling on the BRB powers for meph 3 powers or 2. He loses wings of sanguinius, as vahouth stated. Sure itd be nice to get forewarning on him or iron arm but that's just a chance to happen. Sure unleash rage isn't as helpful as it used to be but sanguine sword is great for killing a dreadnought or other vehicle. I used to run him in 4th and man oh man did I hate having to wait for him and his squad to slog it up to the enemy (my old thin dex is stored away, was he an independent character then or no? I forget, its been so long).

[Zealadin]

To be fair the FAQ is just the house rules that Games Workshop creates in their gaming group, and let's be honest, they are rarely balanced or well thought out.

There are some real doozies in the latest FAQ's that totally destroy some EXTREMELY clear rules, because apparently someone at GWS HQ doesn't like a certain unit...

 

I really wish people would put less faith in the FAQ's, far too often they totally contradict logic, community consensus and just plain common sense.

 

The only advantage of using the FAQs is that it means tournaments can have a one set of rules for everyone kind of thing going... EXCEPT many have their own FAQs, probably because the GWS ones are so rubbish.

 

They should stick to releasing an Errata and leave it at that.

[Morticon]

I'll agree to disagree on this one Zealadin - I think this set of FAQs are the most concise, useful and generally helpful set of FAQs they've ever printed.

They even errata-ed items for balance purposes (like paladins/nobs/WG wtc).

 

The Mephiston with two powers could very well be an issue of balance.

 

Your point is still taken though, that it is "just" a set of house rules.

The thing thats difficult to reconcile however is that on an international forum we have members from a huge multitude of gaming circles, so, just like a tournament, the only common ground we have are the rules as they are written in the book and the FAQs.

[Angels_Sanguine]

I don't think balance is really an issue with mephiston anymore. Yea, I said it. He's a beast of a psyker, period. But wip access to 3 powers isn't the only change he had. He's ap3 in CC at best. You thought terminators killed him before? Well now they get their 2+ save. I still say he should have 3 powers and it just suffers from poor wording, but untill the FAQ gets change I've got no choice but to run him with 2 or risk becoming "that guy" in my area.

[Lanfear]

the part with mephiston is in brackets therefor it is directed to swaping powers. the original question speaks of librarian, and the sentence after comma is directly referenced to this, the librarian. and he can only swap two powers. mephiston is not menthioned there.

[dswanick]

the part with mephiston is in brackets therefor it is directed to swaping powers. the original question speaks of librarian, and the sentence after comma is directly referenced to this, the librarian. and he can only swap two powers. mephiston is not menthioned there.

Um...

PSYCHIC POWERS

A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston) may use the psychic disciplines found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, instead of those in Codex: Blood Angels.

The subject of this sentence is "A Blood Angels Librarin (including Mephiston)".

If he does so, generate two new powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy or Telekinesis disciplines (in any combination) before armies are deployed.

Who is the subject in this sentence? "He" is the subject. Who is "he"? "He" is the subject of the preceding sentence. Who is the subject of the preceding sentence?

"He" = "A Blood Angels Librarin (including Mephiston)".

[vahouth]

the part with mephiston is in brackets therefor it is directed to swaping powers. the original question speaks of librarian, and the sentence after comma is directly referenced to this, the librarian. and he can only swap two powers. mephiston is not menthioned there.

Um...

PSYCHIC POWERS

A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston) may use the psychic disciplines found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, instead of those in Codex: Blood Angels.

The subject of this sentence is "A Blood Angels Librarin (including Mephiston)".

If he does so, generate two new powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy or Telekinesis disciplines (in any combination) before armies are deployed.

Who is the subject in this sentence? "He" is the subject. Who is "he"? "He" is the subject of the preceding sentence. Who is the subject of the preceding sentence?

"He" = "A Blood Angels Librarin (including Mephiston)".

 

That's what I though too.

[Lanfear]

he = the librarian.

the context of a bracket is just the part where it is interposed. thats how i read it.

 

well, i´m good at math and logic, therefor i´m good at grammar. But i´m not neccessarily good at explaining :/

[CrimsonMajick]

Just wish that Sanguine Sword would give him ap 2 in addition to S 10... I know it's not going to happen, but I can dream, right?

[Red Fury]

That would be sweet, although if they really changed it to S10 ap2 you know they would tack on I1 at the end too. Which wouldn't be that bad, it gives you options. Decent strength ap3 at high I, or crazy S10 ap2 hits going last.

[ianj253]

When he casts sanguine sword isn't he getting strength 10 AP3 attacks? On a side note I'd be interested to how many powers the new iphone app would allow him to take.

[Zedrenael]

When he casts sanguine sword isn't he getting strength 10 AP3 attacks? On a side note I'd be interested to how many powers the new iphone app would allow him to take.

 

New iPhone app only allows him to take two powers but shows three warp charges.

[TrentL]

I show the rules to my Opponent and say "He's mastery level 3 so I should get 3 rolls, probably an oversight"

 

If my Opp says "Well those are the rules" then I keep the Codex powers.

If they say "Yeah .. GW messes things up once and awhile" I roll 3.

 

I have yet to actually have someone say "2 powers for joo!"

[Black Memories]

You would have a tough time convincing me that mephiston is the only mastery level 3 psycher in the entire game that gets only 2 powers. I think people are combining two sentences that do not say the same thing. Blood angel librarians (including mephiston) may exchange powers in the codex for those in the rulebook. It does not say specifically how many psychic powers mephiston himself gets, which is contrary to other FAQs where special characters are SPECIFICALLY told what amount of rulebook powers they can generate, and thus you would refer to the rulebook on how many powers are generated. Mephiston is mastery level 3 and thus can generate 3 powers for from said trees availible to librarians.

 

Other psychers who are specifically called out, as per the rulebook, get that number of powers. Eldrad- 4, typhus-2, tigirius-3, ahriman-3. The psychers who are not listed specifically, as per the rulebook, then use their mastery level to generate powers. Until I see an entry that says "Mephiston generates 2 psychic powers", he is going to be generating 3, because it is not specifically listed. If you want to argue RAW with specifically stated precedences than you have, realistically, an infallible argument to making mephiston generate 3 powers. In combination with the FAQ he is not specifically called out, like other characters, and thus refers to his mastery level. I don't see how anyone could possibly argue that.

 

Because Mephiston is Mastery Level 3 I'd say if it doesn't specifically state he can only roll 2 powers he MUST roll 3 powers, which is the inverse of this current argument. The rulebook is pretty clear on that. No where does it specifically say he can use only 2 powers. The flip side is Njal, but Njal can only generate 2 powers because he is only mastery level 2 as per the rulebook, and Njal is not given the option to generate more specifically.

[dswanick]

You would have a tough time convincing me that mephiston is the only mastery level 3 psycher in the entire game that gets only 2 powers. I think people are combining two sentences that do not say the same thing. Blood angel librarians (including mephiston) may exchange powers in the codex for those in the rulebook. It does not say specifically how many psychic powers mephiston himself gets, which is contrary to other FAQs where special characters are SPECIFICALLY told what amount of rulebook powers they can generate, and thus you would refer to the rulebook on how many powers are generated. Mephiston is mastery level 3 and thus can generate 3 powers for from said trees availible to librarians.

 

Other psychers who are specifically called out, as per the rulebook, get that number of powers. Eldrad- 4, typhus-2, tigirius-3, ahriman-3. The psychers who are not listed specifically, as per the rulebook, then use their mastery level to generate powers. Until I see an entry that says "Mephiston generates 2 psychic powers", he is going to be generating 3, because it is not specifically listed. If you want to argue RAW with specifically stated precedences than you have, realistically, an infallible argument to making mephiston generate 3 powers. In combination with the FAQ he is not specifically called out, like other characters, and thus refers to his mastery level. I don't see how anyone could possibly argue that.

 

Because Mephiston is Mastery Level 3 I'd say if it doesn't specifically state he can only roll 2 powers he MUST roll 3 powers, which is the inverse of this current argument. The rulebook is pretty clear on that. No where does it specifically say he can use only 2 powers. The flip side is Njal, but Njal can only generate 2 powers because he is only mastery level 2 as per the rulebook, and Njal is not given the option to generate more specifically.

You can believe that if you want, but it's currently wrong :

PSYCHIC POWERS

A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston) may use the psychic disciplines found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, instead of those in Codex: Blood Angels.

The subject of this sentence is "A Blood Angels Librarin (including Mephiston)".

If he does so, generate two new powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy or Telekinesis disciplines (in any combination) before armies are deployed.

Who is the subject in this sentence? "He" is the subject. Who is "he"? "He" is the subject of the preceding sentence. Who is the subject of the preceding sentence?

"He" = "A Blood Angels Librarin (including Mephiston)".

[Black Memories]

Read everyone else's, it specifically says on each of those characters. I doesn't say on mephiston and thus he uses the book's 3 powers generated. I don't get why that isn't the current line of thought. Unless you can show me where it specifically says mephiston is mastery 3 but generates 2 powers, he generates 3 because it doesn't specifically say, and the book says if its inconclusive he generates equal to mastery level. You really think mephiston is the only mastery level 3 in the game that can't generate at least 3 powers?

[Morticon]

Unless you can show me where it specifically says mephiston is mastery 3 but generates 2 powers,

 

That's been done a few times Black Memories:

 

PSYCHIC POWERS

A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston) may use the psychic disciplines found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, instead of those in Codex: Blood Angels. If he does so, generate two new powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy or Telekinesis disciplines (in any combination) before armies are deployed.

 

 

The only debate here is one of intent.

There is no rule ambiguity here.

[dswanick]

Read everyone else's, it specifically says on each of those characters. I doesn't say on mephiston and thus he uses the book's 3 powers generated. I don't get why that isn't the current line of thought. Unless you can show me where it specifically says mephiston is mastery 3 but generates 2 powers, he generates 3 because it doesn't specifically say, and the book says if its inconclusive he generates equal to mastery level. You really think mephiston is the only mastery level 3 in the game that can't generate at least 3 powers?

PSYCHIC POWERS

A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston) may

If he does so, generate two new powers from the

A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston)..., generate two new powers from...

A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston)..., generate two new powers from...

A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston)..., generate two new powers from...

A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston)..., generate two new powers from...

A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston)..., generate two new powers from...

A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston)..., generate two new powers from...

A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston)..., generate two new powers from...

A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston)..., generate two new powers from...

 

Get it?

[Lanfear]

A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston) may use the psychic disciplines found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, instead of those in Codex: Blood Angels. If he does so, generate two new powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy or Telekinesis disciplines (in any combination) before armies are deployed.

 

A bus driver (including car driver) needs a license to drive a vehicle on public streets and can transport people up to the number of seats of the vehicle. If he does so, he needs to obtain a class "B" license.

 

 

A bus driver (including car driver)..., needs to obtain a class "B" license.

 

.... false :)

 

i´m sry if i'm not using the completly correct words, as english is not my mother language, but it should be clear what i want to demontrate. if you want to drive a bus you can drive on public streets and carry people arround like everyone else, but to do so as a bus driver, you need another drivers license as you need when driving a car.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/cdl_htm/lic_chart.htm

 

same sentence structure, different meaning.

[dswanick]

A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston) may use the psychic disciplines found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, instead of those in Codex: Blood Angels. If he does so, generate two new powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy or Telekinesis disciplines (in any combination) before armies are deployed.

 

A bus driver (including car driver) needs a license to drive a vehicle on public streets and can transport people up to the number of seats of the vehicle. If he does so, he needs to obtain a class "B" license.

 

 

A bus driver (including car driver)..., needs to obtain a class "B" license.

 

.... false :)

 

i´m sry if i'm not using the completly correct words, as english is not my mother language, but it should be clear what i want to demontrate. if you want to drive a bus you can drive on public streets and carry people arround like everyone else, but to do so as a bus driver, you need another drivers license as you need when driving a car.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/cdl_htm/lic_chart.htm

 

same sentence structure, different meaning.

Except, that by writting it that way, a car driver would need a class 'B' license. I'm sorry but that's the grammar of that paragraph. The first sentence sets the subject, "A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston)" or "A bus driver (including car driveer)". The second sentence references the subject of the preceding sentence by using "he". English grammar means "he" = "A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston)" or "A bus driver (including car driver)"(in your example).

[JamesI]

Its very simple. Mephiston is not the only psyker of higher mastery level than the number of powers he's allowed to take out of the book.

 

Aspiring sorcerers are Mastery Level 2 and get 1 power.

 

It happens.

 

I think there is an incentive in the rules to make Named Characters keep the powers they got in the codex rather than the rulebook.

[Chaplain Admetus]

The big thing for me is that nowhere does it specifically call Mephiston out as being separate to this. It nowhere says for Mephiston to generate 3. Here's my main argument, and note that these are all straight copy-pasted from the GW site:

 

Blood Angels FAQ:

A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston) may use the

psychic disciplines found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook,

instead of those in Codex: Blood Angels. If he does so, generate

two new powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy or

Telekinesis disciplines (in any combination) before armies are

deployed.

 

Dark Angels FAQ:

A Dark Angels Librarian (including Ezekiel) may use the

psychic disciplines found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook,

instead of those in Codex: Dark Angels. If he does so, generate

two new powers from the Divination, Pyromancy, Telepathy or

Telekinesis disciplines (in any combination) before armies are

deployed.

 

Space Marines FAQ:

A Space Marine Librarian (including Tigurius) may use the

psychic disciplines found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook,

instead of those in Codex: Space Marines. If he does so,

generate two new powers from the Biomancy, Pyromancy,

Telepathy or Telekinesis disciplines (in any combination) before

armies are deployed. Tigurius instead generates three new

powers.

 

Space Wolves FAQ:

A Space Wolves Rune Priest (including Njal Stormcaller) may

use the psychic disciplines found in the Warhammer 40,000

rulebook, instead of those in Codex: Space Wolves. If he does so,

generate two new powers from the Biomancy, Divination or

Telekinesis disciplines (in any combination) before armies are

deployed.

 

All four contain references to their librarians (or equivalent) being able to swap their powers for two rulebook ones, with the exact same wording: "A [insert appropriate codex] librarian (including [named psyker]), may use the psychic disciplines found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, instead of those in [insert appropriate codex]. If he does so, generate two new powers" (emphasis mine). Tigurius is called out by name, but then given a specific caveat that he gets 3 instead. Mephiston has no such line, ergo he only gets two. It seems pretty clear cut to me once you look at it in comparison to the other FAQs, but I can see where people would think different.

 

Also, for those saying it should be done by Mastery Level, you would then have to state that poor old Ezekiel from the Dark Angels book only generates one, since he's only Mastery Level one, because that's the only logical extension of the point, and I doubt you'd find many people arguing that. Again, he receives no "Ezekiel generates one instead" line. Njal generates only two powers despite knowing ALL of the Space Wolf ones.

 

As I said, if it weren't for the Space Marine FAQ, I'd consider this a grey area. However, with the Space Marines FAQ and the Blood Angels FAQ being identical in wording barring the lores available, and Tigurius getting that extra sentence and Mephiston not, I see it as fairly straightforward.

 

+EDIT+ Quick edit to agree with JamesI - its probably by intent that all 4 of the Space Marine master Psykers get notably worse when using rulebook powers. Njal and Tigger get their available pool cut in half, Mephiston loses his speed and arguably his potency depending how lucky you get with powers, and Ezekiel was only going to get one power per turn anyway, but he loses the ability to chuck up an invuln save in the opponents turn.