Prince of Crows

[Augustus]

You are right, in that regard. They do do amazing things. Your Talos character is great to me because of his flaws. If Sevetar can do all those things and make it seem extremely easy it makes me, as a reader, not care as much as I would if there were flaws in him.

[A D-B]

You are right, in that regard. They do do amazing things. Your Talos character is great to me because of his flaws. If Sevetar can do all those things and make it seem extremely easy it makes me, as a reader, not care as much as I would if there were flaws in him.

 

Losing a war, getting your whole company slaughtered, losing your Legion's flagship, and getting captured, has never looked so easy.

 

I get what you're saying. I just can't agree, and thankfully, it matches none of the other reviews, ratings and feedback I've seen about the character. And it's staggeringly different in tone to your first post. But I do appreciate the time you took to feed stuff back.

[Augustus]

Yeah, my word choice of my first post was poor, and for that sorry. I meant that on a personal level of his abilities not the greater scope of things. You clearly demonstrated that the NL have lost the crusade.

 

Its doing all those things AND living that is hard to relate to. Granted, they are space marine first captains and I should have had that in mind when I read it (Dante, Guillimen, Grimnar etc are depicted similarly )

 

In the end it is what it is, pretty good. I look forward to reading about Corswain in the same regard ;D

 

Thanks again!

[A D-B]

Yeah, my word choice of my first post was poor, and for that sorry. I meant that on a personal level of his abilities not the greater scope of things. You clearly demonstrated that the NL have lost the crusade.

 

Its doing all those things AND living that is hard to relate to. Granted, they are space marine first captains and I should have had that in mind when I read it (Dante, Guillimen, Grimnar etc are depicted similarly )

 

In the end it is what it is, pretty good. I look forward to reading about Corswain in the same regard ;D

 

Thanks again!

 

...I miss Corswain.

 

Anyway, no need to apologise, man. We got on the same level by the end. I think it comes across harsher just because we're not both sat there with beers*, across a table.

 

(*In the autumn and winter, I'm more of a white wine guy. Macho, I know.)

 

I do really miss Corswain, though.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

...I miss Corswain.

 

I do really miss Corswain, though.

 

I love Corswain. Please write another tale about him :P

[Augustus]

A-D-B

 

You sound like...Corswain is gone for good as in dead.. Say it aint so, man!

 

Or do you mean you are you done, for the most part, with the Dark Angels?

[WGXH]

A-D-B

 

You sound like...Corswain is gone for good as in dead.. Say it aint so, man!

 

Or do you mean you are you done, for the most part, with the Dark Angels?

 

This. One hundred times, this.

[Reinen]

...I miss Corswain.

<...>

I do really miss Corswain, though.

 

Will another author write about Corswain? :tu:

[Phoebus]

One already has. And with all due respect to Gav Thorpe... not to the effect I hoped for.

[FerociousBeast]

Anyway, no need to apologise, man. We got on the same level by the end. I think it comes across harsher just because we're not both sat there with beers*, across a table.

I doubt it... Online, with friends, writing reviews--anywhere where the author is just a name on a book cover--we reading public allow ourselves to be relentlessly and vociferously honest about our feelings for books and their authors, damning in the most extreme terms for the slightest provocations and with the slimmest margins of justice. And in my opinion that's fine, because, when discussing a book, what we say is really more about ourselves than the book itself, so however that self-expression shows itself is valid. (Within reason...)

 

It's only when an author is also a member of the community that the rules get a little more sticky, since now you're not just a name on a book but a part of the social circle, and unbounded self expression is no longer legitimate, since the feelings of another are also at stake.

 

Hmm. I started writing this intending to defend one's right to say whatever one wants with whatever level of vitriol desired, audience be damned, but I've just reasoned myself into an opposite conclusion...

[Reinen]

One already has. And with all due respect to Gav Thorpe... not to the effect I hoped for.

 

 

However, the Corswein history isn't finished.

[Reinen]

...

 

If the book doesn't like, it is possible not to read it.

But the author is free to write everything that he wants.

It's my unshakable belief. ;)

[Captain Semper]

Anyway, no need to apologise, man. We got on the same level by the end. I think it comes across harsher just because we're not both sat there with beers*, across a table.

I doubt it... Online, with friends, writing reviews--anywhere where the author is just a name on a book cover--we reading public allow ourselves to be relentlessly and vociferously honest about our feelings for books and their authors, damning in the most extreme terms for the slightest provocations and with the slimmest margins of justice. And in my opinion that's fine, because, when discussing a book, what we say is really more about ourselves than the book itself, so however that self-expression shows itself is valid. (Within reason...)

 

It's only when an author is also a member of the community that the rules get a little more sticky, since now you're not just a name on a book but a part of the social circle, and unbounded self expression is no longer legitimate, since the feelings of another are also at stake.

 

Hmm. I started writing this intending to defend one's right to say whatever one wants with whatever level of vitriol desired, audience be damned, but I've just reasoned myself into an opposite conclusion...

 

Well, I'd say that the reason one writes a review (and not a libel) is to give his informed opinion on a partcular piece. Of course one has the right to write what he thinks. However, he must also be in a position to support his views if challenged. I think ADB's presence in the boards is a positive in that if you write something that will put his novel in a less than great light he'll probably respond in defence of his work. Which raises the stakes as far as review quality goes. Besides, harsh critisism does not have to be rude or offensive to achieve its aim.

 

Obviously there are the purely subjective issues that no one can discredit because they are... subjective. However these are also the least interesting as people will look for more objective issues that can be defended and/or attacked. Such issues can be the clashing with existing lore or more subtle things like the protagonist traits and realistic behaviour. Also the storyline itself is subject to critisism - if the plot is simplistic, overly complex and tedious or just right...

 

So to conclude, the presence of ADB in these boards is a force of good as far as fair reviewing is concerned and I wish he sticks around. If one does not like a novel (or part of a novel) and says why in a coherent way, even if ADB defends his choices and opposes this review, other members of the boards can read both opinions and make up their mind. Suggesting that you'll hold back your opinion because you're afraid that you'll hurt ADBs feelings (provided the review is not libelous or rude or offensive) is strange to me given that his presence in the boards indicates that he seeks people's opinion on his work. In fact I'd say that given that the B&C audience is well educated when it comes to 30k/40k background issues this must be the most valued feedback he can get...

 

I'm half way into the Prince of Crows and I have to say I really like it. I will reserve a full opinion after I finish it - probably later today...

[Haranin]

I now look back and think, "Wow the night lords are so badass that the only way the Dark Angels could ever defeat them is to use some Deus Ex Machina device. And even with that, loads of Night-Lords get away.

 

The Dark Angels stupid enough to put all their prisoners in one cell. ^_^

At least the Custodes separated their prisoners..lol

 

The Lion takes down Curze after 60 seconds? How?> :o

 

I think they main point of the story is to describe the Night Lords legion and their descent into further craziness which is why Dembski-Bowden left the Dark Angels in a background role and only used them as a plot device.

 

I'd go for a 4.5 / 5 for BL. This isn't Starship Troopers by any stretch; but as 40k fiction quite good.

 

The POV is consistently from the same night lords character; criticizing the DA's decisions or portrayal from that POV is odd- the story is not that equal numbers of tactical DA v. equal numbers of night lord tacticals, the NL win.

 

Its that the first company of the night lords, lead by a primarch and the first captain, which first captain was one of the best close combat legionaries *before* he unleashed his physic powers (obviously all the close combat divination ones), in a do or die situation, fought like hell in a surprise boarding action.

 

Largely against serfs, tacticals in the area etc. Not the cream of the DA... the local reaction forces in that part of the ship. It was quite clear that as the DA brought up more marines, including the primarch, termies and first company marines, that the night lords were doomed. Every night lord that wasn't bat :cuss crazy commented on how insane the first captain and the primarch was.

 

We don't know why the DA clumped their prisoners. What we know is that the DA considered that group particularly dangerous and thus in a force field. Considering the level of smack down the DA just administered twice to the NL, they might have so many prisoners they can't keep them separated- not enough cells!

 

From a DA perspective 100% satisfied with the book. DA are portrayed neither as taking vast amounts of stupid pills nor incompetent. The story simply isn't about them.

 

Its a character study of the NL First Captain, Primarch and legion. DA are important only because of the setting... significant only because of the history of the legions together.

[Hephaesteus]

I was trying to finish Priests of Mars before going on to read Prince of Crows; but after the two, what seemed, wildly differing reviews at the top of the topic I had to skip to the heresy.

 

I have checked the rest and don't think there are spoilers, but if you don't want to know more stop reading!

 

First up, I loved it. Though 'my lot' are the DA, it was refreshing seeing them as not the main focus at all, or having to worry about their loyalty.

 

I had to look up what  Deus ex machina meant, seeing as I didn't know what a 'Mary-Sue' was when that popped up elsewhere recently. From the reviews I came into the book expecting that the DA got some sort of unfair advantage with that machine they picked up in the ships hold, and that was how they bested the NL's. I also thought that Severus was going to wake up 'Dallas-style' and it was all a dream. Thankfully none of that happened! It looked to me like the Lion had just figured out the NL's and went about tearing them to bits, systematically and effectively. 

 

I loved the little touches linking to both the 40k NL stuff (the edging toward Talos-like dreaming, the inclusion of non-NL as accepted NL's) and especially the little links to 'marked for censure.' how that shows the crossover of ideas that become vastly divergent in the modernity of 40k. I think there was another story discussing Khârn and chaining his weapons to himself, that the Fists and then Templars taking up that idea themselves in a similar vein.

 

Sevatar, I think, is one of my favourite characters so far in the Heresy. Everyone keeps callling him insane (in a legion of the actually insane), but he seems to be the one who epitomises the ideal that Curze is after. He has his honour, duty and even a little compassion. Along with being a super bad ass nightmare (though I didn't see him as overpowered, if Abaddon did what Sevator did there would be no complaints). I really liked him for his complexity, I am a little worried about empathising with him. What does that say about me?

[Captain Semper]

Finished the story and I found it really top quality. It appears that ADB handles surreal moments very well indeed... Curze's dream and the "walk" he had in it with Sevatar is extremely cinematic and really immersive. Sevatar’s dream with the Crows is also chilling and scary and to me... puzzling. Loved it.

 

Here are some thoughts/comments on the story:

 

[HEAVY SPOILERS TO FOLLOW]

 

As regards the depiction of the VIII Legion:

 

 

* Sevatar is a psychopath. Not insane but unable to relate with people (even his brother Marines) on the most basic emotional levels. Emotions were incomprehensible to him and although he could not respond to them in a sincere fashion at times he fakes them. He also uses violence to resolve disputes with other NLs - something that shocks another Captain and member of the Kyroptera (...fratricide, has it come to that?).

 

* Sevatar is also the architect of the Legion's style of waging war for the next 10k years. He personally orders the remaining fleet to scatter with each member of the Kyroptera to lead his own sub-fleet pursuing his own interests. Sevatar effectively moulds the Legion in its 40k incarnation.

 

* Curze is shown for what he is: an amoral vigilante turned criminal through lack of moral bearings. Use of methods to achieve an intended aim has moral weight which he's unable to recognize. The dialogue between Curze and Sevatar is stripping the Night Lords of whatever moral edge their Primarch might claim to justify his and his Legion's actions. Interestingly it's Sevatar that pushes Curze to confront the fact that there could be other ways to enforce order on Nostramo (and later the compliance of worlds) except violence and horror - a reality that Curze is not ready to accept and clumsily pulls rank on Sevatar.

 

* The Kyroptera: An excellent introduction and in-depth look of the Mournival equivalent of the VIII Legion - the leading body of the Night Lords, answerable only to Curze himself. In the absence of Curze (due to injuries caused by the Lion) they take it upon itself to run the Legion but are stopped on their tracks by Sevatar that effectively takes over by killing the survivors of the old Kyroptera (except one) and appoints a new council that is not allowed an opinion - they have to do what Sevatar says or face him in a fight. The order he gives is the effective dismantling of the Legion as one unified force and let each individual member of the Kyroptera lead a part of the Legion to whichever ends he desires. This defines the setting of the 40k incarnation of the Night Lords and bodes well with the modus operandi of the Legion as described in the Talos trilogy.

 

* The final assault on the Dark Angels flagship - the Night Lords make an uncoordinated (ans suicidal?) effort to board the Invincible Reason. This crazy attempt ends with the defeat of the Night Lords that break and run when the Dark Angels make their co-ordinated final attack (a recurring theme of what the NLs will do from now on when faced with an unwinnable battle) and the incarceration of Sevatar in a high security cell in the bowels of the Invincible Reason. We are left to beleive that Curze is still alive and onboard the DAs flagship - but not a prisoner. How will they get out? this will take some explaining! :)

 

 

 

As regards the depiction of the I Legion:

 

 

* The Lion cuts Curze's throat in less than a minute of duelling - erasing my bitter memories from Savage Weapons once and for all! Indeed the prologue was some of the most powerful single pages in the entire HH series imo! Well done on restoring the Lion's awesomeness ADB - and thanks! ;)

 

* The Dark Angels were a plot device used to get the most out of the Night Lords psyche. They were mighty, they were relentless and they were the perfect Nemesis for Curze's failings - the Dark Angels are the legitimate punishment. So they annihilated the Night Lords fleet, not once - but twice and after the second encounter, the Night Lords stopped operating as a single fighting force for ever.

 

* They were also largely faceless… Yes the Lion is shown in the prologue in detail (wow! factor goes through the roof) but after that he’s only shown in a distance duelling with Curze while the rest of the DAs were just suits of black armour. And that’s fine because this is not about the Dark Angels. It’s not even about the Dark Angels and the Night Lords. It’s about the Night Lords exclusively and their soul searching to re-invent themselves from a coherent Legion in the service of an Overlord (the Emperor initially – then Horus) to a pirate force, only loosely connected together through their Primarch – while he still lived.

 

 

 

 

So... Gloriana battleship? anyone care to elaborate? Anyone? ADB?

 

Also, any idea who the 10th Company apothecary attending to Curze might be? Anyone? ADB?

[Brother Nihm]

Also, any idea who the 10th Company apothecary attending to Curze might be? Anyone? ADB?

Talos ?

[Captain Semper]

Yes that's what I was getting at! :rolleyes: hahaha!

[Augustus]

Excellent review Captain Semper.

[A D-B]

Hmm. I started writing this intending to defend one's right to say whatever one wants with whatever level of vitriol desired, audience be damned, but I've just reasoned myself into an opposite conclusion...

 

I have a skin both thick and thin. Criticism doesn't really stumble me, constructive or otherwise. I probably pay more attention to it than I should - definitely more than my contemporaries in and out of 40K writing - but I don't have any burning dislike of it. Often, I'll agree. Like most authors, there's no harsher critic than yourself. And people are smart, anyway. They say something smart, and I'll either say "Hmmm, good point" or "Damn it, I thought so, too." Like, in one review of Prince of Crows, the one criticism someone had was that the Raven was a good character, but "a bit tacked on". And I nodded along, thinking "Yeah, for really reals." Because he was. But he had to get in there, because he's important for a later novel and this was where he'd be seen for the first time. A necessary evil, but I still agreed with the criticism.

 

What will almost always get me replying in detail, though, is someone just plainly getting something wrong, or attributing motives to me and my work that don't exist. I know, it's the internet, people ascribe reasons to everyone else no matter what they do and why they do it, but it's a personal hate-switch, and I feel a sad, burning need to correct those kind of misunderstandings. Similarly, I think it's pretty obvious from the first post's tone (and the subsequent replies) that Prince of Crows really wasn't laid out in those terms. It was a pretty eye-twitching misrepresentation of the story, so I felt the knee-jerk need to comment. That's why.

 

But I'm fine with opinion. If someone says I suck as a writer, I might wonder why they think that (especially if they cite other writers that I loathe as being awesome) but apart from crying silently into my Frosties, I won't get all up in their face over it.

 

A-D-B

 

You sound like...Corswain is gone for good as in dead.. Say it aint so, man!

 

Or do you mean you are you done, for the most part, with the Dark Angels?

 

I think(?) Gav has plans for him. I love the Dark Angels (well, there's only one Legion I don't love, and I'll never, ever write about them) but the Dark Angels are one of the Big Four, and with me joining so late, it's very hard to get a story about the Big Four. So I was honoured to get to show them, and enjoyed it a lot. But they're very much in Gav's hands, as far as I know. I know they definitely are in 40K, what with his new series.

 

I have a special fondness for the Dark Angels. Not a bias, but definitely a special fondness.

 

Spoilers, spoilers, everywhere.

 

Thanks for that review, dude. In fact, thanks to the whole thread. Prince of Crows is one of those stories with a lot of nuance that writers sometimes think they're very clever for doing, then start wondering if it's really clever at all, or if people will even notice the carefully laid nuances and even give a damn. So a detailed review like Cap Semp's (literally...) made me sigh with relief.

 

A Legion needs to stand out in a story. It needs unique flavour that shows it as This Legion, Not That Legion. Same with primarchs. I tried my best with PoC to hammer those points home; I think at this stage, Curze now has the most background of any primarch in regards to pre-Legion "growing up" years, and I stuck to the Index Astartes article, like, crazy-close - despite PoC's Curze section being about 50 times as long as that article.

 

So... Gloriana battleship? anyone care to elaborate? Anyone? ADB?

 

It's a capital-ship class. Like, the capital ship class. "Legion Flagship" class.

 

Also, any idea who the 10th Company apothecary attending to Curze might be? Anyone? ADB?

 

Teehee. Maybe.

 

I'm not really big on huge namechecks and references to 40K stuff, as I think it makes the universe too small (Boba Fett: the best bounty hunter in the galaxy? All those millions of worlds? Really? Everyone's heard of him?). So I avoid the "Here're my 40K characters!" cameos more often than not.

 

Naming one familiar ship among many other named ships? One of two nameless Apothecaries who get a single half-sentence of description? I'm fine with that. It might've been him. Even I don't know.

[Arachnid99]

Just a thought but in the Talos series Talos is clearly a confidant of Curze, or at least encounters him on a regular basis. Maybe this is the start of that relationship?

[Aegnor]

Dear ADB,

I've read your novella Rock-Paper-Scissors. Rock was like WAAY OP'd dude, like ridiculous. Also Scissors should have been much stronger than you showed them - you obviously have a bias against all Scissors. That said, you depiction of Paper was just right.

 

Seriously, PoC was awesome. Curze's flashback/dream, Sevatar's whole character, and his scene with the Crows, just awesome. Thanks man, one of my fave HH/40k stories.

 

Am now wondering which Legion you don't like though. ;)

[Dog]

First of all, to all those complaining about the Lion beating Curze in 60 seconds, IT NEVER HAPPENED.

IIRC, this is referencing the time when the two met on that moon(?) with their favoured sons (Mournival-esque, 1st Captains etc.) and a fight broke out, lasting only 60 seconds before it was BROKEN UP, by BOTH SIDES. As in, the Captains rushed in to stop their fathers from killing each other and leaving the survivor open to a counter-attack.

 

Second, why is everybody complaining about Deus Ex Machina machines and the main character being able to kill other marines? The Horus Heresy is FULL of Deus Ex Machinas, what with the warp gods, and the ever-reaching 'Emperor Protects' going on. Sevatar is also, as other's have mentioned, 1st Captain, with a bunch of psychic powers to boot, including being able to push his body into moving so quickly he bursts blood vessels from the strain, and being able to read exactly what his opponents are going to do next. Yes, he's a tad overpowered, but it is all justified.

 

Personally, my biggest annoyance with the story is when Sevatar clamps onto the Wrath-pattern flyer, which avoids more fire than Luke Skywalker to feint-land in the enemy refueling bays and drop him off. But the phrase 'artistic license' exists for a reason, and I enjoyed the book more than I though I would.

[Godhead]

I really think that it is awesome that ADB manages to show up on these forums to discuss his books. I think it's a rare treat to get the authors perspective on his works, and the ability to have a candid discussion about them.

[Azoriel]

First of all, to all those complaining about the Lion beating Curze in 60 seconds, IT NEVER HAPPENED.

IIRC, this is referencing the time when the two met on that moon(?) with their favoured sons (Mournival-esque, 1st Captains etc.) and a fight broke out, lasting only 60 seconds before it was BROKEN UP, by BOTH SIDES. As in, the Captains rushed in to stop their fathers from killing each other and leaving the survivor open to a counter-attack.

 

From the book:

(Sevatar)’d seen his primarch duel the Lion twice – first in the dust of a fortress’s foundations on distant Tsagualsa, and again only weeks before, fighting for less than sixty seconds in the rain of a world that held no value at all.

 

The Lion soundly beating Curze in a rematch was mentioned in large portions of this story (to include the entirety of the introduction, as well as most of the beginning and climax). (The author himself, ADB, also referenced this very event earlier while commenting on the thread.)