Are flamers of Tzeentch broken?!

[monkeyman26]

My friend is running a 1500 daemon list and has just tabled me twice in a row, both times inside 4 turns. The main killer in his army was 3 x 9-man flamer squads which did all the damage: breath of chaos destroys vehicles with the auto hit 4+ to glance and 4+ to kill all my marines under the template. They were massively boosted by the new rules in 6th ed and the WD pamphlet which gave them 2 wounds, overwatch so they can't be charged, better deep strike chart, vehicle hit points so they can crush land raiders and now they're 10 points cheaper!

 

I ran balanced vanilla marine lists, each of which contained a mix of the following: Librarian (with null zone), 2 or 3 tac squads, whirlwind, Dakka pred, rifleman dred, land speeders with twin flamers or typhoon and 2 stormtalons. The flyers and twin flamer speeders did well but everything apart from the flyers died quickly. He would deep strike and anything the flamers land near is dead.

 

His list also has 3 squads of screamers (which chew vehicles), fate weaver and 2 small units of pink horrors. The low troop count is a weakness but it doesn't matter if all my guys are dead!

 

My questions:

- has anyone else found flamers of tzeentch to be broken under the new rules?

- any thoughts on what marine units I could take, or tactics to employ, which would improve my performance?

- what army and individual units can combat them effectively?

 

Thanks

[spartan249]

I think this is a job for Sternguard!

 

Librarian providing Null Zone should even the odds here. That either nullifies Fateweaver's bullcrud or makes flamers of tzeentch simply melt (ironic indeed).

 

3 Squads of Sternies, Pedro, Librarian w/ Null Zone, and whatever else you want to run. Throw a bazillion wounds on those flamers when they drop (giving them sacrificial rhinos/bubble wrap is a given, unless you decide to ally in a strike squad for the warp quake bubble) and they will most likely drop to very manageable levels quickly.

 

I'd also probably suggest a Thunderfire cannon as well, so that they can not claim cover saves and be forced to take invulnerables (neutered by Null Zone).

[Gentlemanloser]

Flamers were broken with thier old rules.

 

But I now find Warp Quake to be the answer to all your Dameon woes. ;)

[ShinyRhino]

Yes, sir. Warp Quake is your new best friend. For the small cost of a cheap GK HQ and a 5-man Strike Squad or two, you can deny the Daemons the ability to land within 12" of your lines...so long as you go first. It requires a turn to cast!

 

If you don't want to ally in Grey Knights, you can look to Landspeeder Storms and their Jamming Beacon, which increases the scatter of arriving Daemons.

 

Local daemon players have latched on to the new Flamers and Screamers like crazy.

[DarkGuard]

Null Zone, high strength weaponry, maybe Enfeeble. Unless they're using icons they're making risky Deep Strikes, so they may not want to land right infront of you in fear of mishapping.

 

Or of course some Strike Squads or Interceptors.

[Axagoras]

Keeping a 2 inch spread is overlooked by everyone when it comes to templates and blasts, doing that lessens the damage done immensely.

[Captain Idaho]

Judging from what you have available, I would suggest ensuring you are inside Rhinos when they drop to protect your Marines. Or castle up by placing such expendable units as a picket line around your forces so the drop doesn't wipe you out (I suggest the former as the opponent might deploy farther away than optimal counter strike range - see below).

 

Now, they have great rules no doubt, but with Null Zone cast and a bold counter you can neuter them for the rest of the game in a single turn:

 

concentrated rapid fire and heavy weapon fire (from your Typhoons and Talons etc) can put enough wounds on the opponent to make a mess of them if it happens all at the same time. You reduce any squad you intend to charge to around 4 models then wipe out another squad wholly with your firepower if possible. You can then counter charge the reduced squad, preferably with either numbers to ensure likely survival from the damage from those pesky overwatch attacks, or reduce it entirely with an IC with Storm Shield tanking as many shots as possible (3 wound choices are best here).

 

Even if you don't do any damage in the assault you'll likely still win it or hold your ground (they're rubbish too right?) so that leaves just a single unit to damage you next turn, and that can only be a single target.

 

Your next turn is concentrated purely on the last squad which shouldn't be too much of an issue.

[ShinyRhino]

Keeping a 2 inch spread is overlooked by everyone when it comes to templates and blasts, doing that lessens the damage done immensely.

 

The problem here is that Daemon players are loading up on these, in squads of 9. Landed successfully, they can plop about 5 templates on your unit. A 10-man marine unit spaced at a full 2-inch coherency gap is huge and can still take a ton of hits from templates :huh:.

[monkeyman26]

Thanks for all the tips, much appreciated.

 

The suggestions on limiting his deployment options are definitely worth while and if nothing else should postpone the defeat beyond 3 turns! Warp Quake is a great option but I was hoping to avoid using allies, mainly because it will involve buying another codex and several more units (although psyfileman dreads would be great against these guys). The speeder storm option is OK but it's not as much of an obstactle as WQ and it would take up one of my precious fast attack slots. Spacing the models far apart was a tactic I tried in the first game and that did limit the damage he could inflict in the first turn but as soon as his flamers were moving 12" then flaming 8" and his screamers were moving up to 36" and slashing it all became irrelevant. Going mech is not as effective against daemons as it is against other armies: screamers easily destroy the transports (even land raiders) and the flamers finish of anything that comes out. He has been fairly luckily with mishaps but with the new mishap table it pays to be aggresive with deep strikes.

 

The main problem I have with the new rules is killing the entire squad of flamers and screamers because they have 2 wounds. Even one or two remaining of either can do a scary amount of damage. Therefore I needed to target almost all my fire on one unit each turn to take them out which allowed his other units to reek havoc. Null zone is not as effective now they are 5++ with two wounds compared to 4++ and one wound. Sternguard and the flyers were effective but the main problem I had was the 18 wounds required to finish off the squad. My two storm talons and 10 Stern will struggle to kill them all, even with null zone. The next turn my flyers are too far away and the stern are all dead. Strength 8 weapons are great for instant death but I just can't get enough into my army without leaving it static and therefore vunerable.

 

I hate to admit defeat but I am thinking of refusing to play his list. He played two other C:SM players at his local club this evening and tabled them both within 3 turns. It was over so quickly he played both games in one standard time slot. Hopefully there will be an Erata soon that corrects what are obvious typos in the deamon army points costs...

[Silvs]

I would try eliminating them with Vindicators - it may work when they are close to each other after Deep Strike. Null Zone is also your big friend here.

[StrayCatt]

Swamp him with numbers. What I mean by this, is give him as many targets as possible, so that his attacks take out less, leaving you more time to shoot him to pieces. Split your squads to increase the number of targets, and have the flyers hover.

I don't know that this will work, but if you combine it with Idaho's tactics, it should give you more breathing room.

[greatcrusade08]

Idaho's tactics

 

throw potatoes at them???

 

sorry couldnt help myself with the geography puns :P

 

castling up is the way to go, make use of your tin boxes. also remember to put disposable units as human meat shields for your more favoured squads

[Captain Idaho]

For the record, I'm not a farmer! A country bumpkin perhaps? :lol:

 

Combat squading is a solid choice since it limits the damage that can be done to just 5 models.

 

Although I appreciate the ease in destroying those vehicles, it is all about target saturation. Destroying a transport over something wit more firepower would make a big difference to your survival.

 

If you can reduce the numbers in a unit, you can more safely charge them and stop them from moving or shooting.

 

Likewise, Storm Shields are great for this, particularly when there are 3 or less models in a Flamer unit. A 3 wound model should survive overwatch even from 4 Flamers consistently, since you're looking at a maximum of 12 hits, average of 6 wounds and you should make 4 saves on a 3+. With Look Out Sir! you can help your character surviving if he reaches 1 wound, further reducing the damage to a unit.

 

Apart from that, hit a squad with you entire army at a time, rapid firing bolters being ideal.

 

Incidently, I noticed you mentioned instant death weapons; it was my understanding Daemons were immune to it as their Codex grants them Eternal Warrior? Has this changed now then?

[greatcrusade08]

Incidently, I noticed you mentioned instant death weapons; it was my understanding Daemons were immune to it as their Codex grants them Eternal Warrior? Has this changed now then?

 

all daemons are EW, there is no ID'ing them

[Haranin]

now add in multiple lash sources

[Captain Idaho]

Nah, that's not an issue. Pavane and Lash aren't so bad because the models which use those abilities are expensive and either slow moving or taking up crucial positions in the army.

[Ming]

A month or so ago one problem was the flamer unit using the character to spread the wounds around...that is gone now with the FAQ...overall, against any daemon incursion, null zone is your friend, and frankly, your buddy the whirlwind is a cheap fix....and two are better....just don't try to assault them! Shoot em' instead!

[Captain Idaho]

...Unless the odds are in your favour!

 

A Tactical squad with a Captain and Storm Shield can weather plenty of overwatch (probably a good 5 models) and still make contact with a unit, pinning it in place and essentially neutralising them.

[nurglez]

or assault them with a disposable squad first to soak the overwatch :D

[Gentlemanloser]

Combat Squadding doesn't really help. There's so much area covered by the Templates, it's quite easy to 'splash' extra units.

 

Flamers are garbage. One of the worst units GW ever devised.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't see the harm in Combat squadding. It will reduce the damage done and to be honest I DO think you can easily space out to avoid the damage. Hell with the new Rapid Fire rules it should be much more easier to keep up a relentless amount of fire on the opponent each turn.

[Brother Ambroz]

Flamers are still a pretty expensive unit. I would go with the suggestions above, Null Zone libby, multiple Whirlwinds, Sternguard squad(s), these are all good ways to deal with them. We did get a huge boost, but honestly alot of our :D really needed it. Maybe look at some allies? Some GKs with psycannons would help alot, as would some guard allies with template weapons. If you're still having problems, shoot as much dakka as you can at them, feed them a tac squad for overwatch and then charge with a decent CC unit. For the other units, Fateweaver you just need to force saves on and he'll fall rather quickly after. The screamers from what I've heard are the kind broken ones from what I've seen. Large amounts of dakka seems to be your friend against these guys as well.

[Babel_Triumphant]

Against daemons, bolters are your friend. You outrange the demons and can pretty much always get in a good round of rapid fire. Flamers and screamers are fairly expensive so there shouldn't be much left after.

[Gentlemanloser]

And when the Flamers DS in off of an Icon carried by the flying DP of Nurgle that came in the turn before, and obliterate your marines with multiple templates you get *no* save versus.

 

Well, there's little bolters left to rapid fire thier 2W 5++ save away with.

[monkeyman26]

Thanks to everyone for lots more good suggestions. I particularly like the idea of using inv saves to neutralise the flamers on overwatch; so much so I was even thinking of using legion of the damned! It's still going to be very difficult to win against this army but at least I might be able to last a bit longer. My friend recently struggled against a solo librarian in termie armour with storm shield as he only got one hit per flamer and the screamer slashing attacks weren't very effective against 2+ saves. His opponent then inflicted heavy damage on the flamer squad in his turn. The space marine player was still tabled in 4 turns but he killed more deamons than I did!