Are flamers of Tzeentch broken?!

[ianj253]

I feel your pain! If some of you making suggestions haven't played against these things then you don't understand how broken they are. I play BA Jump army so how am I supposed to ever win against a list like this without drastically changing my list. A flamer squad managed to get 42 hits on one of my assault squads :lol: . I'm going to invest in some baal preds just to combat an army like this.

[*Furyou Miko]

And when the Flamers DS in off of an Icon carried by the flying DP of Nurgle that came in the turn before, and obliterate your marines with multiple templates you get *no* save versus.

 

Well, there's little bolters left to rapid fire thier 2W 5++ save away with.

 

Bah. I can do basically the same thing with Dominions to similar effect and nobody calls them broken.

 

Against deep striking (or Outflanking, which is where my experience mostly lays), the only real defences are powerful saves on the outside (Invuns in this case - Storm Shields, I guess?) and numbers to weather the storm.

 

Don't just Combat Squad and space out the Marines in each squad. Space out the squads - you want at least 3" between combat squads, and deploy them along the edges of imaginary concentric circles.

 

This way, each template will hit a maximum of 5 marines if he's deployed at the end of a line, or 3 Marines if he's deployed along the flat edge, which is more likely. You'll still lose a combat squad to each unit that deep strikes in, but suddenly you've gone from losing everything in 2 turns, to losing everything in 4 turns, and that gives you a huge chance to strike back.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Bah. I can do basically the same thing with Dominions to similar effect and nobody calls them broken.

 

But Space Marines get armor saves against Dominions. That's the difference.

[Axagoras]

And they nuke vehicles too, only my mortis contemptor with skyfire and interceptor and gun them down when they land :lol:

[pucadubh]

Did you guys play against GKs last edition?

Have you payed against Crons in 6th Ed?

 

And you are whining about Flamers :D

 

Gun them off the table, if they are true Tzeentch (order of 9s) then they will be tough to shift but keep your eye on the objectives then :P

[monkeyman26]

Just finished my third game against this guy and although he won it was close! He changed to three squads of six flamers, which made a massive difference, so he could bring in some traitor guard and a quad gun to combat my flyers. I castled in rhinos and grouped in a corner with enough space In between so he couldn't flame 2 units at once. Null zone worked a treat until he popped the razorback and slashed the libby with screamers. 8 stern guard worked well, as did double flamer speeders and Dakka pred in the corner. His screamers did most of the damage after i targeted the flamers: one survivor from a squad of five chewed my whirlwind and a combat squad. The deciding factor was his lord of change was scoring from his warlord trait and the game finished after turn 5 when I was winning the battle but losing on points.

 

Advice from this forum helped massively but I still believe 3x9 flamer spam is unplayable (he claims 3x6 isn't spam). Keeping the Libby alive is key but he's always going to get targeted. Next time I'll take two.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Snip! (he claims 3x6 isn't spam).

 

 

Then he's full of :P. Excepting Troops choices, taking three of anything counts as spam.

[Brother Nihm]

Snip! (he claims 3x6 isn't spam).

 

 

Then he's full of :tu:. Excepting Troops choices, taking three of anything counts as spam.

Says who? you? ;)

 

It could count as redundancy..

 

Y'see, I never understood the cries of 'spam' against people fielding mutiples of the same choice. The previous edition basically enforced the need to have redundancy in units.

 

1. if it is allowed by the Codex, it is allowed by the Codex.

2. if a combination or one-trick pony move works against the unprepared, then it it works well - a few times. Then the unprepared player smartens up.

3. find a way to counter it, here is a hint: almost all books have one. Several books have many.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[Jacinda]

It's still spam ....

 

2 is redundancy. 3 is spam

[Brother Nihm]

:D :)

[greatcrusade08]

im gunna fence sit a little here.. bro Nihm is kinda correct in that if its allowed then its allowed and its upto us to counter these legal choices.

that being said, its not like taking mutiples of troops choices, people take flamers for one reason.. they are savage.

so the cries of spam are legitimate to a degree IMO.

 

i dont ususally worry about spam, its cheese that gets me.. huh maybe im diary intolerant :lol:

but this discussion does remind me of a recent discussion during a massive multiplayer game at my LGS.. i suggested that necron flyers with death rays, destroyer lords and canoptek spyders were and i quote "necron cheese".. to which i was reminded of how "cheesy" my scout army was in 5th ed.

 

which took me back a bit, theres a big difference between tuning an army with practice and a whole heap of losses to learn from, than there is taking clearly overpowered choices in order to WAAC.

one is what we should strive for in day to day play, the other beongs in tournament play only.. of course this is merely one opinion and i have to acknoweldge that not evryone will agree.

 

Bottom line, and i have to admit Bro Nihm got it right.. it doesnt matter if its cheese, spam, eggs or fish... whining doesnt get you anywhere.

if your gaming buddies dont think they are doing wrong, then your only left with two choices

-stop playing them or

-learn how to fight them

 

the latter is what this thread should concentrate on tbh

[Jacinda]

:D :cry:

lol, I know.

 

I'm just teasing you.

 

There really should be no negativily associated to any lable you call it. It is just a way of saying how you are playing an army. I don't have more than 2 of any unit yet I spam melta all over the place.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Yeah, I'm not saying spam is any way illegal, cheesy, beardy, whathaveyou -- I'm just saying that if it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck. . .

[BassWave]

Yeah, I'm not saying spam is any way illegal, cheesy, beardy, whathaveyou -- I'm just saying that if it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck. . .

 

Then it weighs as much as wood, can burn, and therefore clearly a witch! :)

 

Those flamers sound nasty. People have given good offensive tips to counter, but what tips on defending against them. For example, what can one do to prepare for the turn they arrive?

[Captain Idaho]

Well, when they arrive you should counter strike if they arrive close. Take the initiative and move forward and hit them as described above.

 

If you're going first, or the Flamers are coming in after turn 1 or arrived further away, then the only thing you can do is limit the damage they can do. Hiding in a transport means the squad inside stays alive and can counter attack next turn. Spread your squads out so 1 Flamer squad can only hurt 1 of your units at once, and within a unit you need to make spread the unit coherency about.

 

Spreading coherency about won't necessarily save a unit from a full squad of Flamers killing a unit of yours, but if you can reduce their numbers over the course of a game you can save a unit from total anhilation.

[Captain Idaho]

On a separate note, check this post of mine:

 

Link

 

So if they don't have saves they aren't so dangerous! ;)

[Ellevild]

Brother Nihm is right:

3. find a way to counter it, here is a hint: almost all books have one.

 

 

I.e. C:BA:

Imagine this line with 2" between each model, rest of army in tincans and raven.

 

Flamer--->Div.Libby w/stormshield-SG-SG-SG-SG-SG-Corbulo<---flamer

 

3++ in one end and 2++ in the other, plus corbs has the reroll. I am not a mathhammer expert, but you will save alot of wounds (especially i Libby gets Forewarning!)

 

I have a flamer spamming friend as well, but I can take him out most of the time. The missions in 6th are objective heavy, so if he only brings 2 small units of troops are a big issue for him. Use that!

 

Oh, and also deploying in multiple level buildings. 5 man squad spread on 2 or 3 levels equals max 3 or 2 marines, even if he drops 12 templates.

[Naminé]

Man these things are a nightmare now :P

 

So using vanilla marines, I was wondering if anyone has a tactic to kill these annoying guys? I know pouring fire into them works but they aren't THAT expensive for a deamon player and they tend to field 3 groups of them these days!

 

help me B&C... you're my only hope.

[breng77]

Well as a Daemon Player I can think of a few things a vanilla marine player could do that would hurt my flamers.

 

1.) Play with Transports: Although flamers can kill vehicles pretty well, if I kill your vehicle and then get shot by 10 guys that are in side, it is going to hurt. Also if you can box your army in with empty transports and fill the space behind those transports it makes killing lots of guys an issue.

2.) Play with Null Zone: takes away fateweaver buff/makes it easier to force me to fail saves.

3.)Find a way to force a lot of saves (templates of your own can help, especially if they are twin linked)

4.) Depending on squad size don't be afraid to assault. Lots of people fear charging these guys because of the potential of overwatch, but smaller or weakend squad are not all that likely to kill that many guys 3-4 flamers only average 3-4 wounds, which is a lot, but if you then have them tied down for a bit at least they are not killing you.

5.) Sternguard in a pod: If you get turn 1, deploy the sternguard in a castle formation as suggested above(or buy another pod so you can try to delay them which is probably preferable). Otherwise try to drop down and rapid fire a squad (or 2 with combat squading) of flamers with the wounds on a 2+ ammo.

[Ellevild]

You can check this thread:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=260647

 

There are some good advice there

[Captain Idaho]

:confused:

 

You linked this very thread I believe!

 

A summary of tips I can't agree more with:

 

1.) Play with Transports: Although flamers can kill vehicles pretty well, if I kill your vehicle and then get shot by 10 guys that are in side, it is going to hurt. Also if you can box your army in with empty transports and fill the space behind those transports it makes killing lots of guys an issue.

 

Great advice. Mech lists aren't dead, they just have to be worked to win.

 

2.) Play with Null Zone: takes away fateweaver buff/makes it easier to force me to fail saves.

 

For definites. Null Zone will hurt.

 

3.)Find a way to force a lot of saves (templates of your own can help, especially if they are twin linked)

 

Yep. Don't be afraid to move forward to rapid fire a Tactical squad. The Flamers would reach you anyway.

 

4.) Depending on squad size don't be afraid to assault. Lots of people fear charging these guys because of the potential of overwatch, but smaller or weakend squad are not all that likely to kill that many guys 3-4 flamers only average 3-4 wounds, which is a lot, but if you then have them tied down for a bit at least they are not killing you.

 

...And you can also make sure you lead your assault with a Captain with a Storm shield. With three wounds you can take the first two on him, then Look Out Sir! to save if you go down to a dangerous amount of wounds. Even if you lose the character but are able to lock those Flamers in place, you've got them.

 

Better yet, do it with multiple models with invulnerable saves.

 

5.) Sternguard in a pod: If you get turn 1, deploy the sternguard in a castle formation as suggested above(or buy another pod so you can try to delay them which is probably preferable). Otherwise try to drop down and rapid fire a squad (or 2 with combat squading) of flamers with the wounds on a 2+ ammo.

 

Well I don't know much about Sternguard drop podding, since I never normally use them. Sounds good though.

[DarkGuard]

:confused:

 

You linked this very thread I believe!

 

Funny how that happens.... :D

[pOwellO]

Im not an experienced marine player by any means but I have seen many tactics employed against screamers and flamers since 6th Ed and the new Deamon rules..

 

Drop Pod armies seem to work wonders....you can play them at their own game and get the proverbial 'drop' on them and rapid fire away

 

LOTS if long range firepower ie Razorbacks and predators with Heavy Bolters. Have seen an army table Deamons witj Screamers and Flamer spam by reserving most of it and firing away when thay become avsilablr

 

When using Dark Eldar I use lots of splinter weapons, forces lots of saves to kill them quickly.

[Brom MKIV]

If your meta is heavy on DoC then GK allies are pretty much custom built to combat them. Its already been stated but worth elaborating, a couple units of 5 gkss in psybacks are a great reactive force due to warp quake. Spread right they can deny approximately 2.5' x 5', slightly more if you get crazy with placement. In addition psybolt ammo stormbolters put out serious dakka for minimal investment.

This would be my go-to counter enabled by a very cheap inquisitor ally, either malleus for incinerator at 40 pts or else xenos with plas syphon at 35 pts, both with servo skulls and the option of reserve manipulation if taking counter-alpha strike units. Also remember DoC cant guarantee what units will be arriving when so the above gkss' have a higher than normal chance of being able to react to DoC incursions.

 

On top of that ive seen mention of alpha (deep) striking them back as mentioned above. I am a fan of this, especially with units like sternguard/wolf guard that can pack heavy flamers and combi weapons, and in conjunction with psychic communion if possible.

 

Lastly, whether reserved, deep striking off a beacon, or simply moving forward from inside the pseudo protection of warp quake bubbles, dual hvy flamer speeder squadrons are made to erase units like flamers.

 

Ive been doing extensive playtesting with these last 2 suggestions and found both to be solid inclusions in 6th edition.

[Marshal Goderic]

Did you guys play against GKs last edition?

Have you payed against Crons in 6th Ed?

 

And you are whining about Flamers

 

Gun them off the table, if they are true Tzeentch (order of 9s) then they will be tough to shift but keep your eye on the objectives then

This a million times over. 'Oh my god! chaos has something just as stupid as TWC and GK Psyflemen! We are lost! We shall never win again with our obviously loved-by-the-rule-gods codecii of Imperial awesomeness!' Holy Emperor on a cracker... If Imperial players are this bad then no wonder they need uber-dexes to win. :P

 

I play with flamers and screamers, a mono tzeentch list (this is the first time EVER that such a list is competitive), C:CD allies, one max unit of each. even if someone is playing with 3x9 flamers, if you have units in a rhino.. dead flamers from bolter fire as soon as they crack the tin can (unless some idiot charges the flamers) lets say TWO! units of flamers drop by your can, one unit pops the can, the other kills the squad, OR EVEN THREE! the third kills another squad or can... SHOOT THEM WITH BOLTERS! or anything else! they can't kill your entire army in one drop, they only have a 5+ save... yeah its an invuln but shoot them with crap AP, it doesn't matter! It's like everyone forgot how to put lots of regular wounds on a unit and people only know how to put high strength, low AP weapons in a game. There is NO difference (aside from don't charge them) to killing these as opposed to killing anything else that can deepstrike and wipe a squad/tank etc if it gets a good drop.

 

I am ;) :( :o ;) :D SO confused that people find this that bad to deal with after the GK and Cron codex...

 

reactions: GK & Cron face-stomping dex debut; "wow that's good but we can deal,"

Daemons get a whopping TWO new units, "The Imperium is falling!!!"

 

If you don't trust in your holy bolter then you deserve to have your soul flayed by the god of change. :(