IA:Cerberus

[Messor]

It looks pretty good to me. I would object to the specific named commanders, but then I realized that the chapter is still pretty young and these are probably the only leaders it has had, so :tu:

 

Do you mean that in the sense that these commanders would/should be dead by the present time? I'm still not sure whether or not I mean to play the Chapter in the current millenium (in which case these would be the current leaders, probably third or fourth generation) or sometime after the founding around when they first reach full strength. The important part to me was that Maeleth and Shepard be contemporaries, but I'd just as well have them in the present millennium as well. I had a thought relating Jack Harper's first reaper artifact encounter with a sojourn in the warp by Maeleth, which would allow Shepard to be the Sons of Unity's current CM, and Maeleth to be a returning CM. It'd be a bit much to include in the IA though.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Yeah, mistake on my part. For some reason I thought the chapter was younger than it is :D

 

Include characters if they're important to the development of the IA. Mention that leader X found the first artifact that they have since been pursuing. If he's just the third generation Chapter Master, leave him out.

[Micius]

I do not know much about the world of mass effect, but do you look favorably upon literary critiques?

[Messor]

Yeah, mistake on my part. For some reason I thought the chapter was younger than it is :)

 

Include characters if they're important to the development of the IA. Mention that leader X found the first artifact that they have since been pursuing. If he's just the third generation Chapter Master, leave him out.

 

Ok, I'll definitely work that out, thanks. Maeleth is, if I have my way, both the original and the current Chapter Master, having returned to power. I'll work out which generation as well.

 

 

I do not know much about the world of mass effect, but do you look favorably upon literary critiques?

 

An earnest critique is a helpful critique, and I haven't had any literary edits so far, so please do!

[Messor]

So Cerberus models have met the brush, though still quite WIP.

 

The first Atlas Dreadnought(Not unique at all, at the moment. Still working on that), closest model to finished, and a few of the further along TacMarines. Working with white is hard. I've learned a couple lessons about using washes, mostly the hard way.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b257/alienbastard89/Warhammer/SDC16195_zpsa33a3247.jpg

 

Only model with a bolter right now. I think I've decided to go with white for the bolters, with a washed lower section, meaning this one will get a repaint.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b257/alienbastard89/Warhammer/SDC16196_zps8361ad7b.jpg

 

Still tinkering with leadership and organization, though focus is slowly shifting to the newer Chapters, Alpha Hounds and my other WIP.

[Messor]

First part of a 'Historical' Operation added to the Cell Operations section, to be expounded on in story form. Follow the link to adventure!!

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

You're going to paint the bolters white? I'd recommend a different colour if only because there is already so much white on the model already :o

[Pulse]

Blending Mass Effect and 40k physically hurts me.

 

Mass effect is far too good to even consider blending with 40k. <_<

[Messor]

Blending Mass Effect and 40k physically hurts me.

 

Mass effect is far too good to even consider blending with 40k. <_<

 

Well, it can only bring more awesome to the mix, then, right? XD

[Messor]

You're going to paint the bolters white? I'd recommend a different colour if only because there is already so much white on the model already :)

 

Oops, sorry I almost missed this. I bounced back and forth between white and black bolters. I was concerned with black blending too much with the chest pieces, and white with the whole model, but after seeing a similar scheme, with a well highlighted white bolter, I decided to go white. The models are done now, so you can give em a proper evaluation when I post pics next week.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

You're going to paint the bolters white? I'd recommend a different colour if only because there is already so much white on the model already :P

 

Oops, sorry I almost missed this. I bounced back and forth between white and black bolters. I was concerned with black blending too much with the chest pieces, and white with the whole model, but after seeing a similar scheme, with a well highlighted white bolter, I decided to go white. The models are done now, so you can give em a proper evaluation when I post pics next week.

Alright, fair enough :yes:

[Wulfebane]

You mentioned washes regarding your painting WIPs. I don't know how much further you intend to take the models in the photos, but if you don't intend to, I highly recommend washing ALL of the white with a watered down fortress/astronomican grey equivalent. Don't go near them with nuln oil, as this will likely be too dark for what you want, even watered down. Whatever you decide, the white needs something to help make the details pop and add some depth.

 

...I'd also do this before adding the yellow-orange, which turned out to be a great hue for the scheme.

[Messor]

Well, the Cerberus Tac squad is done, barring lens and similar details, which I'm sure I'll get to...eventually(details drive me bonkers). For some reason they aren't uploading into my albums here, so, via external source:

 

 

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b257/alienbastard89/SDC16207.jpg

 

 

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b257/alienbastard89/SDC16209.jpg

 

Sorry my camera's so awful. I'm considering getting a new one. Any recommendations on a camera really good at getting these sorts of photos, preferably where I can get more than five marines in a decent shot?

 

After looking at many models online, I see what you meant about the nuln oil, Wulfebane, and I had my share of problems with it, but the effect I got was acceptable. There are a couple more pics on the WIP thread itself, mostly alternate lighting, and one group shot.

[Wulfebane]

Nuln oil aside, it looks waaay better.

[Messor]

Only a small update, but I gouged the wordy, mostly Sons of Unity related sections out of the origin, left a satisfactory mention, and grafted them into the Sons of Unity IA. Also solidified the gene-seed section, which shoulda been done forever ago.

[Messor]

Some more [relatively] complete Cerberus models, Scout Snipers edit: First picture of the three.

Edited February 13, 2013 by Messor

[Firepower]

Wow.  I was excited and amused to see a crossover from one of my favorite science fiction franchises.  I was not expecting to see it actually incorporate he Mass Effectness so effectively ( ), what with the Thresher attack and locations and whatnot.

 

Bravo.

 

I didn't spot anything in my read through that I could point a finger at and scream "FAILURE!" either.  But I'll keep looking

 

Pity it's such a gibblet crusher of a color scheme though.   Damned white and yellow paints.

Edited February 13, 2013 by Firepower

[Messor]

By all means, please keep looking! These marines will be making up my main army, so I'd certainly like them as polished as possible.

 

The white and yellow's not so bad, just takes some getting used to.

[Octavulg]

A crossover would be if Shephard turned out to be a historical character in 40K. This isn't a crossover any more than me doing a Black Company chapter is a crossover with the works of Glen Cook.

One Marine in particular loathed the very notion that his Chapter had defended xenos worlds or interests, as they occupied space and resources which ought to belong to mankind.

Which is why, of course, the Sons of Unity had evicted them from the worlds they shared with Man.

 

Oh wait.

After the disastrous and costly battle fought alongside the Eldar, the flame of hatred grew into a consuming and towering inferno.

What, no concerns that the Eldar were using them for some darker and wider purpose, like the perfidious aliens always do?

In the peace time of the months that followed, a message appeared in circulation on the interconnected network of the Systems Alliance planets, a message which appeared to be full of the Emperor's fervor.

What's the Systems Alliance? You haven't explained.

 

Also, there's no such thing as an interconnected interplanetary network in 40K. Certainly not an interstellar one, at any rate.

Unfortunately, it was more than just a man. Janus Maeleth of the 3rd squad and 5th company had been a non-native recruit to the Chapter, as well non-military parentage, a rare trait amongst recruits. But since his induction he had shown nothing less than an Astartes spirit. In private, though, he had a vision of a different Imperium, the undisputed power in the galaxy, an Imperium like the days of the Emperor. As he examined the galaxy's present situation though, the only future he could imagine for it was one ever grimmer and darker. The Sons' involvement with the Eldar prompted him to finally act. If he could only spread his vision to the larger Imperium, perhaps things could change. When his secret manifesto was disregarded by the Chapter Master, Maeleth prepared to take matters into his own hands.

...When would he be in a position to send such a message, exactly?

Withholding this deadly secret from his brothers, the detachment scouted the ruins and found only a few broken, mangled corpses. Careful to lead the team away from the serpentine corpse, the marines prepared to leave. When they regrouped, Janus was missing. No sooner was the realization made, then the attack came. No less than seven of the massive burrowing serpents attacked the unit, claiming eight marines in the first seconds alone. The battle, if it could be called that, was over in minutes, leaving forty nine marines strewn on and beneath Akuze's surface. Janus had left his brothers long before the attack had come and returned to their dropship. As he piloted the ship alone back to Rho, he carefully sabotaged its systems, erasing essential reports and diagnostics, and damaged the ship till it barely flew.

First, they'd have more than one dropship - Thunderhawks hold 30 Marines, tops. Less, I think (it changes).

 

Second, he damaged the ship externally? While flying it? Because that's about the only way that'd be plausible.

 

What's Rho? And you know Thunderhawks aren't Warp-capable, right?

He then sent repeated urgent messages to Terra itself,

How? He's not an Astropath.

claiming that a vast, unknown xenos fleet was approaching, and passed on censored details of the mission on Akuze. By the time Janus had made it back to Rho to share his report with the Chapter, the Tarot were already being consulted back on Terra.

Uh-uh. First, that's not how communication works in 40K (it's often a relay). But most importantly, this is the Administratum. They'll get to his report in a few centuries. Decades, if it's a good week.

While the Chapter Master was still reviewing Maeleth’s report for submission to the Librarium, the orders were returned from the High Lords: Janus Maeleth was to be immortalized as a hero in the Imperium’s records for stalling the xenos threat…by being promoted to lead a training cadre in the formation of a new Chapter. Terra had confirmed an impending threat from the subsectors surrounding Akuze and now meant to rely on Maeleth’s ‘experience’ to defend Imperial space.

That's ridiculous. First, you're assuming that the High Lords would make the decision about leadership - it'd seem just as likely to be the Chapter Master's decision. Second, if this is happening when the Nids are around, there's no founding going on. Third, communication in the Imperium is NEVER that reliable and quick.

Terra showed no concern or suspicion, relying not on the report of one Marine, but on the divination of the Tarot. It had promised a threat would come rise from the Akuze subsector, and the Cerberus Chapter was the answer.

Uh...there are a thousand Space Marine chapters in the Imperium. If the Master of one is saying something is wrong, his views are IMPORTANT. Azrael got a chapter founded by asking nicely. Even if your chapter is minor compared to the DA, these are not nobodies.

Cell Operations:

The Cells operate as independently as possible, with the Armory Cell being the most cooperative. Outside that, Cerberus fanatically guards their knowledge and, as often as possible, their identity from any and all organizations in or outside the Imperium. When private communication is necessary, steganographic messages are sent embedded in otherwise ordinary Imperial broadcasts. The ability to decipher these messages rests solely with marines, as no serf could be trusted to keep quiet if captured.

WHY?

 

It's not like exterminating aliens is something the Imperium is opposed to. The Imperium loves exterminating them some aliens. Fun times.

 

Why do any of this secretly? It's not necessary, and Space Marine chapters can already effectively ignore the rest of the Imperium if they want to. Hell, many of them DO.

Battle-cry

Write the section, don't just list the battle-cry and motto.

 

* * *

 

The xenophobia of Cerberus is background noise in 40K. The origin story simply doesn't work, due to a variety of practical obstacles. The chapter seems to lack any reason to take all the sneaky steps they do. Combined, these three elements effectively torpedo things, IMO. It might work as Cerberus (an idea which has no shortage of its own problems, I would point out), but it doesn't work well as a 40K idea or as a chapter right now.

 

What are you trying to accomplish with this chapter? Which themes do you want to explore?

[Messor]

Which is why, of course, the Sons of Unity had evicted them from the worlds they shared with Man.

 

Oh wait.

They might have. They're a little too tolerant for their own good.

What, no concerns that the Eldar were using them for some darker and wider purpose, like the perfidious aliens always do?

I'm sure there were plenty of concerns. What good marine, past, present, future, fact or fiction isn't concerned about working with the enemy?

What's the Systems Alliance? You haven't explained.

 

Also, there's no such thing as an interconnected interplanetary network in 40K. Certainly not an interstellar one, at any rate.

The Sons of Unity IA introduces that. Bummer about the interconnected network, though. I'm spoiled in my sci-fi universes by FTL communications. This introduces the problem that the message can hardly be anonymous if it has to go through a psyker first...

...When would he be in a position to send such a message, exactly?

...then again, he would probably have to entrust to a serf or something first, anyway.

First, they'd have more than one dropship - Thunderhawks hold 30 Marines, tops. Less, I think (it changes).

 

Second, he damaged the ship externally? While flying it? Because that's about the only way that'd be plausible.

 

What's Rho? And you know Thunderhawks aren't Warp-capable, right?

1. Makes sense. My trouble here was really 'How many are reasonable to send?' I'd prefer to get away with one ship, but if there are more, the extras just get destroyed, too.

 

2.Technically, it could be done, right? But no, I get how silly that sounds. Point is just to make it look convincing. Perhaps he can damage it before he leaves.

 

3.Rho's in the SoU IA. At the time I wrote it, I did not know indeed. Another suitably sized warp-capable vehicle will have to do.

How? He's not an Astropath.

Do people usually specify that the Astropath present conveyed the message every time a message is sent? This does make me wonder, though, how a detachment like this communicates its findings back to the fleet. If the Astropath needs a line, he can have it.

Uh-uh. First, that's not how communication works in 40K (it's often a relay). But most importantly, this is the Administratum. They'll get to his report in a few centuries. Decades, if it's a good week.

I don't think I believe that's a blanket rule for the whole Administratum, especially if things like the Officio Assassinorum and Munitorum are supposed to be useful for anything. If not though, I'll need to find a believable rung on the ladder for it to go to.

That's ridiculous. First, you're assuming that the High Lords would make the decision about leadership - it'd seem just as likely to be the Chapter Master's decision. Second, if this is happening when the Nids are around, there's no founding going on. Third, communication in the Imperium is NEVER that reliable and quick.

1.This is almost the same situation as the croc-Traitors. Terra isn't making decisions, the Tarot is.

2.The Nids aren't around, or if they are, no one knows it yet.

3.Good point, though it really just requires a better time frame.

Uh...there are a thousand Space Marine chapters in the Imperium. If the Master of one is saying something is wrong, his views are IMPORTANT. Azrael got a chapter founded by asking nicely. Even if your chapter is minor compared to the DA, these are not nobodies.

True, but the SoU Chapter Master only has suspicions, he hasn't made any objections. What the line is saying is that Terra wasn't acting because of Maeleth's report, but because of the Tarot revealing a threat. I'll try to get that cleared up.

WHY?

 

It's not like exterminating aliens is something the Imperium is opposed to. The Imperium loves exterminating them some aliens. Fun times.

 

Why do any of this secretly? It's not necessary, and Space Marine chapters can already effectively ignore the rest of the Imperium if they want to. Hell, many of them DO.

But this isn't a Chapter trying to ignore the rest of the Imperium, its a Chapter trying to amass power. And its not above fighting Imperials to do so, at which point it helps that all anyone can say is "Eh, it was those guys in white armor." Then they have ideas like 'R&D can't be all bad,' which do not jive with the Inquisition or Ad Mech.

The xenophobia of Cerberus is background noise in 40K. The origin story simply doesn't work, due to a variety of practical obstacles. The chapter seems to lack any reason to take all the sneaky steps they do. Combined, these three elements effectively torpedo things, IMO. It might work as Cerberus (an idea which has no shortage of its own problems, I would point out), but it doesn't work well as a 40K idea or as a chapter right now.

 

What are you trying to accomplish with this chapter? Which themes do you want to explore?

Xenophobia isn't a theme here. As far as that goes, they need only appear more xenophobic than their parent Chapter. The main idea is that they believe they're humanity's hope for survival and prosperity, and there's nothing wrong with breaking the rules, rules even the Adeptus Astartes follow, to ensure that.

[Octavulg]

I'm sure there were plenty of concerns. What good marine, past, present, future, fact or fiction isn't concerned about working with the enemy?

WHich is why, of course, the IA mentions this, since it would be a very good concern for him to have...

The Sons of Unity IA introduces that.

IAs stand alone. Explain it in both. Not necessarily in as much detail in this one, mind, but in both.

Bummer about the interconnected network, though. I'm spoiled in my sci-fi universes by FTL communications. This introduces the problem that the message can hardly be anonymous if it has to go through a psyker first...

Indeed. Like I said, it's not a plot that works as well for Marines.

 

It might work as a rumour. Big might.

...When would he be in a position to send such a message, exactly?

 

...then again, he would probably have to entrust to a serf or something first, anyway.

Someone's gonna track that down. And fast. At minimum, the Astropath will ask some serious questions.

1. Makes sense. My trouble here was really 'How many are reasonable to send?' I'd prefer to get away with one ship, but if there are more, the extras just get destroyed, too.

The thing is, spaceships don't land. Dropships land.

 

That's the problem. It's kind of a stupid story in Mass Effect. It's even LESS reasonable in 40K.

2.Technically, it could be done, right? But no, I get how silly that sounds. Point is just to make it look convincing. Perhaps he can damage it before he leaves.

More reasonable.

3.Rho's in the SoU IA. At the time I wrote it, I did not know indeed. Another suitably sized warp-capable vehicle will have to do.

He can't fly something Warp-capable. He's not a Navigator. And the ship will presumably be watching the ground with its sensors while they're down there. And ships have crews.

Do people usually specify that the Astropath present conveyed the message every time a message is sent? This does make me wonder, though, how a detachment like this communicates its findings back to the fleet. If the Astropath needs a line, he can have it.

There'd be an entire ship crew, and the astropath would be on the main ship. Which would be a Strike Cruiser or a Rapid Strike Vessel.

I don't think I believe that's a blanket rule for the whole Administratum, especially if things like the Officio Assassinorum and Munitorum are supposed to be useful for anything. If not though, I'll need to find a believable rung on the ladder for it to go to.

Never forget the Assassin who applied poison to the chairs of the thousand-strong council of some rebel world because he got stuck in the Warp. The wheels of the Imperium turn slow. His message would be unlikely to go straight to Terra anyway, and would be unlikely to get straight there either.

 

Terra gets high priority stuff. Otherwise, it makes its way up the channels. Frankly, I'd expect them to tell him to contact the nearest fleet base or the Segmentum governor instead.

1.This is almost the same situation as the croc-Traitors. Terra isn't making decisions, the Tarot is.

But Terra's still interpreting the Tarot for the Marine chapters.

 

You really don't seem to get just how independent Space Marine chapters are. The Imperium doesn't know how many there are. They don't know where many of them came from. They don't know what the chapters believe. They don't know what ships they have, or how many they have. They don't know how they recruit.

 

The Space Marines are a law unto themselves. They are unknown, and they are scary. There's a reason there's only a thousand chapters now, when the Great Crusade had about two million Marines. It's not because they're less needed. It's because they're barely under Imperial control, and the Imperium knows it.

 

The other thing is that making a report about some alien threat is not nearly heroic enough to get you noticed in 40K. Hell, that's probably a typical week.

But this isn't a Chapter trying to ignore the rest of the Imperium, its a Chapter trying to amass power. And its not above fighting Imperials to do so, at which point it helps that all anyone can say is "Eh, it was those guys in white armor." Then they have ideas like 'R&D can't be all bad,' which do not jive with the Inquisition or Ad Mech.

A chapter could still exist publicly and amass power secretly. Hell, it's probably easier than trying to do it entirely secretly. Heck, a chapter can amass power publicly if they want to. Look at the Astral Claws.

Xenophobia isn't a theme here. As far as that goes, they need only appear more xenophobic than their parent Chapter. The main idea is that they believe they're humanity's hope for survival and prosperity, and there's nothing wrong with breaking the rules, rules even the Adeptus Astartes follow, to ensure that.

Then they should basically be the Black Templars again.

 

Space Marines aren't naturally sneaky. They're very good at killing things, though. A Space Marine chapter that's humanity's hope for survival is going to become numerous and start mass combat dropping on everything they can find. Ignore the Codex, ramp up recruitment, buy some guns from the Tau and go slaughter things.

 

Though considering the attitude most alien races have toward the Imperium, xenophobia's going to almost be a requirement of that.

 

Honestly, I'd ditch the Illusive Man story and focus on reproducing the goals and ideals of Cerberus (though, as many have pointed out, a humanity first organization that seems to spend most of its time fighting humanity is moronic).

Edited February 16, 2013 by Octavulg

[Messor]

Which is why, of course, the IA mentions this, since it would be a very good concern for him to have...

Not 100% sure what you meant here, but there are now mentions of both the Chapter and Maeleth's disapproval of cooperating with xenos.

IAs stand alone. Explain it in both. Not necessarily in as much detail in this one, mind, but in both.

Fixed.

Indeed. Like I said, it's not a plot that works as well for Marines.

 

It might work as a rumour. Big might.

Rumored.

The thing is, spaceships don't land. Dropships land.

 

That's the problem. It's kind of a stupid story in Mass Effect. It's even LESS reasonable in 40K.

What? Spaceships and dropships are stupid? You lost me.

He can't fly something Warp-capable. He's not a Navigator. And the ship will presumably be watching the ground with its sensors while they're down there. And ships have crews.

 

There'd be an entire ship crew, and the astropath would be on the main ship. Which would be a Strike Cruiser or a Rapid Strike Vessel.

I changed fly for command. I doubt these are the only options. Maybe officially, but Chapters capture ships now and again. Could be useful to use one to approach a system without being earmarked as Astartes or targeted as hostile. In which case, there need not necessarily be a crew besides the Navigator and the marines commanding it. No denying the section still needs a lot of work, though.

Never forget the Assassin who applied poison to the chairs of the thousand-strong council of some rebel world because he got stuck in the Warp. The wheels of the Imperium turn slow.

Message no longer going to Terra. What's the moral of the story, by the way? I don't see how it relates.

But Terra's still interpreting the Tarot for the Marine chapters.

 

You really don't seem to get just how independent Space Marine chapters are. The Imperium doesn't know how many there are. They don't know where many of them came from. They don't know what the chapters believe. They don't know what ships they have, or how many they have. They don't know how they recruit.

 

The Space Marines are a law unto themselves. They are unknown, and they are scary. There's a reason there's only a thousand chapters now, when the Great Crusade had about two million Marines. It's not because they're less needed. It's because they're barely under Imperial control, and the Imperium knows it.

Independent I'll buy, but as far as I can tell, the only people above the law are the Inquisition, and there's a slew of excommunicated and destroyed Chapters under them. The Imperium controls a lot of things they don't know/understand. They probably don't have much more information than that about their own planets, and that only because the rocks can't go anywhere. I also find it hard to believe that the Imperial machine is the least bit afraid of the Space Marines. Sure they have their Emperor-given autonomy, and they're an intimidating lot, no doubt. But they're still under control. Chapter's get snuffed with alarming frequency, by every xenos force with a codex, and every Imperial one at that. If they were that much of a concern, they wouldn't be throwing more into the mix every few hundred years. They're a fickle, largely uptight, self righteous bunch, and likely to do just as much damage to each other as the Imperium if penned up in a room together.

 

They serve the Emperor. The divination of the Tarot is viewed as the Emperor's will. They aren't getting pushed around, they're being honored.

A chapter could still exist publicly and amass power secretly. Hell, it's probably easier than trying to do it entirely secretly. Heck, a chapter can amass power publicly if they want to. Look at the Astral Claws.

Why would it be easier? Existing publicly means existing under scrutiny, right? Expectations of tithes, adherence to strictures, limitations to technology. Why risk that exposure? And the excommunicate, now chaotic Astral Claws? Not the example I'm looking for...at least not yet. Could be down the road.

Then they should basically be the Black Templars again.

 

Space Marines aren't naturally sneaky. They're very good at killing things, though. A Space Marine chapter that's humanity's hope for survival is going to become numerous and start mass combat dropping on everything they can find. Ignore the Codex, ramp up recruitment, buy some guns from the Tau and go slaughter things.

 

Though considering the attitude most alien races have toward the Imperium, xenophobia's going to almost be a requirement of that.

 

Honestly, I'd ditch the Illusive Man story and focus on reproducing the goals and ideals of Cerberus (though, as many have pointed out, a humanity first organization that seems to spend most of its time fighting humanity is moronic).

Is that part of the BT shtick, that they're humanity's only hope? For sure, though, the BTs are fanatical and unreasonable. Amassing power is not what they do, and sneaky isn't what the Cerberus Chapter is doing. They're evasive, isolationist, but when they strike, they do so like most Chapters: Hard, and aimed at vital units/structures. The power they build is almost totally political, power that keeps them supplied, informed, and anonymous. That's why they make so much use of serfs. The marines' efforts are directed towards finding/capturing tech and guarding what's been found. I may introduce an element of putting repurposed/new tech back in the hands of planets they influence. I'd kind of like to just toss in and have crazy recruitment, but it seems a little off.

 

Heh, I haven't followed much Mass Effect lore outside the games, but I imagine there's a healthy measure of perspective in seeing why or if Cerberus spends all its time fighting humanity.

[Octavulg]

Quote

What? Spaceships and dropships are stupid? You lost me.

No, spaceships and dropships are separate things in 40K. 40K spaceships don't land (unlike some Mass Effect ships). Barring the fact that Garro's apparently running around the galaxy in a Stormbird in some audiobooks now (which makes no sense, but never mind that), pretty much all 40K spaceships are too big to land on planets. They have shuttles, and dropships, and the like.

 

So basically this guy has a couple of hundred people hanging overhead in orbit watching what's going on.

Quote

I changed fly for command. I doubt these are the only options. Maybe officially, but Chapters capture ships now and again. Could be useful to use one to approach a system without being earmarked as Astartes or targeted as hostile. In which case, there need not necessarily be a crew besides the Navigator and the marines commanding it. No denying the section still needs a lot of work, though.

Almost more necessary, then - the Marines at least know how to operate their own ships. Plus, spaceship crews are big. Even small ships in 40K still have quite massive crews.

Quote

Message no longer going to Terra. What's the moral of the story, by the way? I don't see how it relates.

Just a quick and good example of how the Imperium moves very slowly (but still effectively).

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The Imperium controls a lot of things they don't know/understand. They probably don't have much more information than that about their own planets, and that only because the rocks can't go anywhere. I also find it hard to believe that the Imperial machine is the least bit afraid of the Space Marines. Sure they have their Emperor-given autonomy, and they're an intimidating lot, no doubt. But they're still under control. Chapter's get snuffed with alarming frequency, by every xenos force with a codex, and every Imperial one at that. If they were that much of a concern, they wouldn't be throwing more into the mix every few hundred years. They're a fickle, largely uptight, self righteous bunch, and likely to do just as much damage to each other as the Imperium if penned up in a room together.

C:SM 3e had a count of how many Space Marine chapters had been destroyed. It's not necessarily accurate (there's at least one that conflicts), but it gives us an example of what was considered a plausible number at one point.

 

"Chapter Losses [765.M41]

Lost in Warp 13

Irrecoverable Battle Losses 21

Gene-seed Failure 9

Inquisitorial Purge 4

Other Circumstances 16" (C:SM, p 47)

 

And look at how the Inquisition dealt with the Celestial Lions - indirectly and sneakily. They didn't drum up some fake charges, they just arranged a lot of accidents. That really the sort of behavior an organization so much stronger than the Space Marines would resort to?

 

Read C:SM 3e. Recent codices haven't explained things from the Imperial perspective as much. Trust me - the Imperium's understanding of the Space Marines is limited, and their control over them equally so. Hell, look at Inquisitor Grim's view of them on page 3. Don't let DIYers' penchant for deus ex inquisitor and aliens beating Marines up so the Codex must be abandoned blind you to the independence and scariness of Space Marines.

 

Also, consider how many Inquisitors there probably are. Then consider how many Space Marine Chapter Masters there are. Rarity and importance often correlate.

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They serve the Emperor. The divination of the Tarot is viewed as the Emperor's will. They aren't getting pushed around, they're being honored.

I don't know that a Chapter Master would see it that way.

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Why would it be easier? Existing publicly means existing under scrutiny, right? Expectations of tithes, adherence to strictures, limitations to technology. Why risk that exposure? And the excommunicate, now chaotic Astral Claws? Not the example I'm looking for...at least not yet. Could be down the road.

Geneseed tithes are hardly onerous. Adherence to strictures is easy to fake, as are limitations on technology. The Astral Claws were viewed as a good thing until they stopped submitting tithes and started shooting Imperial citizens. Plus, it gives you the advantage that you can claim to be investigating the cult activity.

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For sure, though, the BTs are fanatical and unreasonable. Amassing power is not what they do, and sneaky isn't what the Cerberus Chapter is doing. They're evasive, isolationist, but when they strike, they do so like most Chapters: Hard, and aimed at vital units/structures. The power they build is almost totally political, power that keeps them supplied, informed, and anonymous. That's why they make so much use of serfs. The marines' efforts are directed towards finding/capturing tech and guarding what's been found. I may introduce an element of putting repurposed/new tech back in the hands of planets they influence. I'd kind of like to just toss in and have crazy recruitment, but it seems a little off.

They're still basically operating in a rather Alpha Legiony sense. Which is unusual enough for the Alpha Legion, but downright strange for a former Codex chapter. The Codex doesn't exactly encourage this sort of stuff, which makes it odd that a Space Marine would do most of it. Sneaking around and establishing cults is far too indirect for pretty much any loyalist chapter.

 

Imperial Space Marines solve problems with increasingly bigger hammers increasingly better applied (the Codex mostly limits them to the latter, of course). They don't switch to scalpels or knives in the back or having someone else hit people instead. Indeed, their current setup seems far more likely to attract Inquisitorial attention than running around loudly proclaiming your loyalty while secretly forming cults.

 

Space Marines aren't sneaky and secretive. It's not in the mentality. Even the DA, who are pretty damn secretive, still exist and do things publicly.

 

More to the point, though, worlds aren't actually that useful. Space Marine chapter trumps world almost every time. Space Marines are literally rarer than Imperial planets - any renegade governor can have a planet. A Space Marine chapter is far more dangerous and useful than a world.

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Heh, I haven't followed much Mass Effect lore outside the games, but I imagine there's a healthy measure of perspective in seeing why or if Cerberus spends all its time fighting humanity.

Cerberus spends most of its time fighting humanity (at least in the first game) because it's a terribly written organization which the writers of Mass Effect later fell deeply in love with due to apparent brain damage.

[Shinzaren]

This seems less like an homage to Mass Effect and more of a recreation of Mass Effect. The names are jarring to someone who has played a lot of the former. Some that I noticed:

Akuze, Kai Leng, Kohaku, Grayson, Rho, Shanxi, and Saten Arterius. These aren't allusions to the game, or hints, they are direct takes from the Universe. While I appreciate the subtle nods, such as the loss/retaking of Shanxi, and the allusion to the Thresher Maw as a Tyranid scout, I found the rest a bit much. You are beating us over the head with the idea that this is a Mass Effect chapter. Subtle is good, obvious is less so. In addition, you seem to be making Janus out to be almost Godlike in his gifts. One lost squad doesn't equate to a new chapter being founded, not even a lost chapter does that. In addition, his subterfuge and lying seems like it could have been detected via Librarian. How does he shield himself during review/questioning? As of now, the Illusive Man just seems a bit much, the deception and trickery all seem like they are too good. 

 

Perhaps instead of maneuvering, sabotage, and betraying his fellow marines, have him be the newly formed Chapter Master of a new chapter, sans the deception. have him come face-to-face with a threat that makes him rethink his strategy and place in the Galaxy, a la Reapers. Then he can abandon the Codex and take up mad science in a hope to maneuver/control/defeat this new threat. Tyranids would be perfect. He can experiment with their biotechnology, try mind-control on them, and generally just be in that grey area of Maybe Evil/Maybe Desperate/ As time goes on, he could realize that more drastic measure are needed and them implement them? 

 

Overall, I really like the Mass Effect chapter and you have a lot really good ideas. I love the Cell idea for the Chapter, and I really like some of the more subtle allusions. However, the parts where you pull directly from your source material are a jarring break from the illusion you are crafting. I am looking forward to seeing more on these guys though, and I will be keeping my eye on how this develops. 

[Messor]

No, spaceships and dropships are separate things in 40K. 40K spaceships don't land (unlike some Mass Effect ships). Barring the fact that Garro's apparently running around the galaxy in a Stormbird in some audiobooks now (which makes no sense, but never mind that), pretty much all 40K spaceships are too big to land on planets. They have shuttles, and dropships, and the like.

 

So basically this guy has a couple of hundred people hanging overhead in orbit watching what's going on.

I'll avoid Garro's example. I may be able to work with that. I'm not super keen on a rewrite, but if I can get the thoughts coherent I'll try it.

Almost more necessary, then - the Marines at least know how to operate their own ships. Plus, spaceship crews are big. Even small ships in 40K still have quite massive crews.

This combined with the above.

C:SM 3e had a count of how many Space Marine chapters had been destroyed. It's not necessarily accurate (there's at least one that conflicts), but it gives us an example of what was considered a plausible number at one point.

 

"Chapter Losses [765.M41]

Lost in Warp 13

Irrecoverable Battle Losses 21

Gene-seed Failure 9

Inquisitorial Purge 4

Other Circumstances 16" (C:SM, p 47)

 

And look at how the Inquisition dealt with the Celestial Lions - indirectly and sneakily. They didn't drum up some fake charges, they just arranged a lot of accidents. That really the sort of behavior an organization so much stronger than the Space Marines would resort to?

 

Read C:SM 3e. Recent codices haven't explained things from the Imperial perspective as much. Trust me - the Imperium's understanding of the Space Marines is limited, and their control over them equally so. Hell, look at Inquisitor Grim's view of them on page 3. Don't let DIYers' penchant for deus ex inquisitor and aliens beating Marines up so the Codex must be abandoned blind you to the independence and scariness of Space Marines.

 

Also, consider how many Inquisitors there probably are. Then consider how many Space Marine Chapter Masters there are. Rarity and importance often correlate.

This bit made me laugh. Not sure I see it the way you do, but good points. Though I feel like it goes a long way towards invalidating all DIY efforts ever.

I don't know that a Chapter Master would see it that way.

Perhaps, though I realize now that as it is, the Tarot doesn't say anything about Chapter Master. That'd be a lie. Some changes probably need to be made.

Geneseed tithes are hardly onerous. Adherence to strictures is easy to fake, as are limitations on technology. The Astral Claws were viewed as a good thing until they stopped submitting tithes and started shooting Imperial citizens. Plus, it gives you the advantage that you can claim to be investigating the cult activity.

Investigating cult activity while actually doing what? This does have the particular appeal of allying Cerberus with my other marines. That bothered me before.

They're still basically operating in a rather Alpha Legiony sense. Which is unusual enough for the Alpha Legion, but downright strange for a former Codex chapter. The Codex doesn't exactly encourage this sort of stuff, which makes it odd that a Space Marine would do most of it. Sneaking around and establishing cults is far too indirect for pretty much any loyalist chapter.

 

Imperial Space Marines solve problems with increasingly bigger hammers increasingly better applied (the Codex mostly limits them to the latter, of course). They don't switch to scalpels or knives in the back or having someone else hit people instead. Indeed, their current setup seems far more likely to attract Inquisitorial attention than running around loudly proclaiming your loyalty while secretly forming cults.

 

Space Marines aren't sneaky and secretive. It's not in the mentality. Even the DA, who are pretty damn secretive, still exist and do things publicly.

 

More to the point, though, worlds aren't actually that useful. Space Marine chapter trumps world almost every time. Space Marines are literally rarer than Imperial planets - any renegade governor can have a planet. A Space Marine chapter is far more dangerous and useful than a world.

It's more infiltrating governments than establishing cults, and the marines themselves aren't really involved in that. They do their 'marine smash!' thing, while serfs are about securing resources and influence. Not sure what you mean about the worlds vs. Marines, unless you're saying they should try to take over other Chapters.

Cerberus spends most of its time fighting humanity (at least in the first game) because it's a terribly written organization which the writers of Mass Effect later fell deeply in love with due to apparent brain damage.

Sounds about right, though their concept seemed much worse in the third one. The only thing that really seemed out of place in the first one was the Thresher Maw trap.

 

 

This seems less like an homage to Mass Effect and more of a recreation of Mass Effect. The names are jarring to someone who has played a lot of the former. Some that I noticed:

Akuze, Kai Leng, Kohaku, Grayson, Rho, Shanxi, and Saten Arterius. These aren't allusions to the game, or hints, they are direct takes from the Universe. While I appreciate the subtle nods, such as the loss/retaking of Shanxi, and the allusion to the Thresher Maw as a Tyranid scout, I found the rest a bit much. You are beating us over the head with the idea that this is a Mass Effect chapter. Subtle is good, obvious is less so. In addition, you seem to be making Janus out to be almost Godlike in his gifts. One lost squad doesn't equate to a new chapter being founded, not even a lost chapter does that. In addition, his subterfuge and lying seems like it could have been detected via Librarian. How does he shield himself during review/questioning? As of now, the Illusive Man just seems a bit much, the deception and trickery all seem like they are too good. 

 

Perhaps instead of maneuvering, sabotage, and betraying his fellow marines, have him be the newly formed Chapter Master of a new chapter, sans the deception. have him come face-to-face with a threat that makes him rethink his strategy and place in the Galaxy, a la Reapers. Then he can abandon the Codex and take up mad science in a hope to maneuver/control/defeat this new threat. Tyranids would be perfect. He can experiment with their biotechnology, try mind-control on them, and generally just be in that grey area of Maybe Evil/Maybe Desperate/ As time goes on, he could realize that more drastic measure are needed and them implement them? 

 

Overall, I really like the Mass Effect chapter and you have a lot really good ideas. I love the Cell idea for the Chapter, and I really like some of the more subtle allusions. However, the parts where you pull directly from your source material are a jarring break from the illusion you are crafting. I am looking forward to seeing more on these guys though, and I will be keeping my eye on how this develops.

Heheheh, well, it is supposed to be a recreation, though you have got me interested in going a bit more subtle. Every single one of the characters is rooted in a Cerberus one(well, a couple are spectres/double agents. I'll definitely give some thought to this alternative origin.