Dealing with Nobz and dakkas

[Sviar]

Next week I have a game against the Orks. Usually it would not be such a big problem. The Ork player however are now feilding planes and maximizes his Nobz unit with a FNP Ork and he may put those on bikes just to give them more toughness.

My first thought was to fight the Nobz with TH/SS Termis and blast the 30-40 orks rushing towards me with everything else and hope that the plane don't blow up my Vindicator and my Whirlwind. My track record against planes is of course short and terrible.

As i value your input, I will gladly listen if you have any ideas or suggestion.

[Nightmare84]

Vindicators can do well against nobs too, no fnp against instant death. As for flyers, if you don't have Mortis best bet is twin linked weaponry. Concentration of fire and they will crash and burn

[Garath]

Orks are my other army and I have 5000 pts- and that's a lot of Orks!

 

 

Protecting your Vindicator is vital- as it can reliably deal with nobs on bikes. You might wanna consider taking 2 Vindicators as, really there's nothing that can deal with their front AV at range( cc is a whole different kind of a ball game )- not even loota boys unless they are 15 strong and pour 45 shots into it, even then it's a maybe..

 

Side AV is a weakness that can be offset . Placing your Vindicator sideways next to a tall building or wall can hide it's side AV and protecting it's flank that way. What about the other side AV? There are several possibilities ,but the best one I can think of right now is placing an empty Rhino next to it...and popping smoke with it .

 

That way ,your Vindicator will get his shot of (and you really only need one good shot to cripple them enough so they won't destroy unit after unit)- an repeating myself , take two if you can, just in case.

Nobs cost at least 350-400 pts ...twice as much as 2 Vindicators and after they're gone ,Vindicator(s) can happily proceed to shot normal orks, trukks ,Battle Wagons - anything goes.

 

Now , let's say we have a way to protect those tanks form Dakkajets- we still need something to actually shoot those things down.

 

Except Aegis defense line , and the odd Skyfire nexus you might randomly get near your objectives- land speeders are probably our best bet against them .

Land speeder tornado with AC/HB in theory could hit that thing. Taking 2 speeders, one Tornado and one Typhoon in a single fast attack choice comes out to 175 pts:

 

Tornado Assault cannon , Heavy Bolter

Typhoon TML,Heavy bolter

 

I know it doesn't look much- but if you have a librarian as you HQ, the primary Divination power that gives re-rolls to hit will spell trouble for those Dakka Jets. Speeders hit on 6 with a re-roll.

That's 6 heavy bolter shots , 4 assault cannon shots and 2 CML with re-roll are bound to produce some hits and glace a Dakka jet to death. With some luck , the Assualt cannon can destroy it by himself with rending attacks.

At least , you'll force the Jet to evade you shots and drop it's bs from 2 to 1 since if it evades it can only snap fire.

 

The other unit with a similar rounds to ground ( or in this case ) air is a devastator squad with 4 heavy bolter or missile launchers. You really need to protect this squad and empty rhinos go a long way.

[Brother Kovash]

The best way to deal with Nobz is to kill everything else. So many points packed into one unit, if you can manage to kite them around the battlefield while you wipe the rest of his army you will render them almost useless. However, if they're going to be on bikes, then I suggest lots of krak missiles and demolisher cannons to wipe them out. If you can manage to multi-assault them you'll also give yourself a good chance of neutralizing their bonus attacks, giving you advantage while in combat.

[Azrael Turnbull]

Don't forget that it will take a couple of turns for those flyers to actually arrive! Use that time to focus those Vindicator's on the Nobz as soon as you can before air support comes in to assist them.

 

Switch the TH/SS Termies for Lightning Claws or shooty Termies. In assault, Initiative 1 holds you no favours with standard Orks, and the Nobz will be T5 on bikes and therefore str 8 will not cause instant death. At least you have more attacks, higher initiative and a good chance of wounding with a pair of Lightning claws. Shooting Termies are also a good option. I would personally choose the shooting Termies as they will be doing damage throughout the game and not just for 'some' of the game. Also still acts as an assault deterant and gives you an extra weapon to shoot planes down with later.

 

I concur with the Librarian as a HQ choice, but make sure he has a stave. When the time comes to stop casting powers and enter close combat, he can start mashing them up good. Put him with the Termies so you cast the re-roll to hit on both him and the squad before you enter combat with any Nobz that may make it to your side of the table.

 

Against the saturated firepower coming from those flyers, and the heavy impact on your firing line caused by Ork Nobz, you should focus on getting as many men into your army list as possible to counteract this. I know it's difficult for Dark Angels with their expensive Tac squads, but try to almost meet his numbers with power armoured marines, whether they be in troops, devastator or assault form. If you can do this, then the flyers will seem more like pests doing minor damage than an actual threat. The Nobz will still cause you problems though, but through sheer amount of firepower, they will all eventually go down before they make up their points cost in successive assault phases.

 

Although I will kick myself for suggesting this, you may want to consider picking up the vanilla marine codex for this army list, as the Dark Angels have nothing beyond vanilla marines to offer other than 'Divination'. If you take Vanilla Marines, then you should leave the Librarian at home and replace with a Chaplain. Without Divination, the Librarian's uses against the Orks will drop drastically.

 

Here is a list I would usually consider for fighting against a 1.5k Ork player of any kind, with a slight modification to include a Vindicator and Terminator squad as discussed before:

 

Chaplain 100pts

Sternguard x 10 w/ 2 combi flamers 235

Tact x 10 with Plasma Cannon and flamer 175

Tact x 10 with Plasma Cannon and flamer 175

Tact x 10 with Plasma Cannon and flamer 175

Tact x 10 with Plasma Cannon and flamer 175

Vindicator 115

Vindicator 115

Terminators x 5 w/ Chainfist & Assault Cannon 235

 

Total 1'500

 

Ok, here are my comments for this list:

 

Termies have a Chainfist. I always take one no matter what, as the insurance against walkers or high armour value is totally worth 5 points. It's not essential, but I've been bogged down by vehicles all too many times before to ignore this upgrade. The Chainfist just makes sure that you can quickly put those walkers behind you. And it looks cool...

 

Tactical Marines have Plasma Cannons. Seems like an odd choice as they can not shoot flyers, but IMO firing at bs1 is throwing away your shooting phase when you could deal out much more damage to another target on the ground. I chose Plasma over ML as they wound on 2+ instead of 4+, they're AP2 so will not be denied by 'Ard armour and the AP2 helps against removing those open topped vehicles that Str7 can actually damage.

 

As we all know, Sternguard are amazingly good against everything on foot with worse than a 2+ armour save. They are obligotary. Wounding Nobz 2+ will eventually ruin them, especially at rapid fire range if they make a bad movement choice. I had points left over for combi-weapons. I usually choose combi meltas, but flamers are better at fighting away the horde if they get too close or declare a charge (or both).

 

Chaplain goes with the Sternguard for several reasons. If you charge the Orks (although you shouldn't actually aim towards this course of action unless the situation demands of it), you have more attacks to reroll than a Tac squad. Another reason is to dissuade the Orks from picking on the Sternguard in assault, as the extra str 6 attacks on top of the standard amount of Sternguard attacks is disheartening to horde opponents. The Nobz will not be so disheartened, but you may still take a few of them down should they succesfully assault you (try to avoid this by blocking their path wth tac squads whilst trying not to ruin your line of sight. 'Deny cover' rounds may have to be used if blocking line of site is unavoidable, but it's better than nothing).

 

Two Vindicators, as stated before, will ruin the Nob squad should you get at least a couple of direct hits. Also, the flyers should have difficulty destroying them. Am I right in assuming their guns are str 6? I can't remember. They will need side armour and rear armour shots to bring them down, and manouvering flyers is not a perfectly easy thing to do. Concentrate on where those flyers can face in the following turn. I did not take extra armour. The fact that there is now even less chance of getting s stunned result due to no damage table for glancing hits means it's not worth the additional 15 points.

 

All in all, that's 51 power armoured marines, 5 terminator armour marines and 2 tanks. Depending on the game type, you should carefully consider whether to combat squad these units or not. For kill points, you should religiously stay as a full 10 man unit. Against Orks, I normally go for at least 70 power armoured marines, but I have included Termies, Vindi's and Plasma Cannons, which should be beneficial in this case. You also have plenty of durable troops choices to capture objectives or the relic, should that be the game type (Emperor forbid the Warboss on a bike earning the ability to capture objectives in a relic mission due to a lucky roll on the Warlord table). Combat tactics means you can break from any combat you need to get out of just before your turn, and since you are no longer forced to flee if the enemy are still within 6", you can guarantee being able to get straight back into the fight (unless you run off the table).

 

Remember, every 3 Ork Boyz that charge you is 1 dead Tac marine on average, so whittle those numbers down as they present themselves as clear targets. Due to the 'Waaaagh' rule, you probably won't be able to charge them first, and although they're not shabby, Marines are far better at shooting than melee. Even if the Orks are right in front of your face, shoot them as much as you can! If you can bring a unit down to 8 models of Boyz or less, then charging with a full or almost full Tac squad will actually be beneficial as not only will you be highly likely to win combat, but you will crush the remaining models with your sweeping advance when you do. However, if the unit has a living Nob (most players include them in every squad), then voluntarily entering combat with Tac's is never a good idea. Just shoot.

 

There are other exceptions to avoiding combat, however. If you have a Tac squad just standing around with no optimal targets, then running in to assist an already engaged Tac squad is acceptable so long as you consider the rest of the battlefield in relation to objectives, etc.

 

Don't shoot the flyers until the Orks on the ground are no longer a real threat. If you actually own an Aegis line (as I know most DA players don't due to the aniticpation of our new codex or they've invested in Forge World), then make some room for this in place of the Plasma Cannons and combi-weapons and any other way you have of sparing points. They're amazing at taking out flyers.

 

I apologise for the long post. Sometimes, I can't help but let it all out at once!

[librisrouge]

Nobz - Our terminators can beat them in melee. Beat them bad. Take 2 squads of Deathwing and make certain that they are close enough to each other to support each other without delays. TH/SS is only needed if the Orks are packing a load of Power Klaws, otherwise the shooting type is the best since you'll be happy for the extra dakka of your own.

 

Basic Orks - This may sound silly but I've come to enjoy what Ravenwing units with two flamers can do to buck standard orks. Double templates + Hammer of Wrath + TL Boltery goodness = a lot of dead orks. Plus, thanks to T5 most orks wound you on a 6, effectively making you as tough as Deathwing vs boyz.

 

Flyers - Get an Aegis Defense Line or allies. DA have 0 good answers to flyers right now. If neither of those are an option, spray and pray is you get bet. Twin-Link as much as possible (or Divination) and hope for the best.

 

The Emperor Protects.

[Azrael Turnbull]

Nobz - Our terminators can beat them in melee. Beat them bad. Take 2 squads of Deathwing and make certain that they are close enough to each other to support each other without delays. TH/SS is only needed if the Orks are packing a load of Power Klaws, otherwise the shooting type is the best since you'll be happy for the extra dakka of your own.

 

True, but these Nobz are on bikes. The assault will be on their terms. If you make too many Terminator units to cover all corners of this Nib squad, you will fall prey to the Ork Boyz. 30 Ork Boyz that can strike before you is not something to be sniffed at.

 

We don't know what this Ork player has other than Nobz and flyers. He could easily fit in 120 Slugga Boyz with all of that!

 

Also, having so few models brings us back down to the problem of saturation. Ork flyers are annoying to mass power armoured armies, but much smaller armies (even with a 2+ saving throw) are going to suffer for every single casualty taken.

 

As for your Ravewing bikes with flamers, I'm afraid to say I don't agree. 130 points gets you 3 bikes with 2 flamers. If you spray 6 Orks per flamer, 6 Orks will die. You will then go on to kill 4 to 5 more Orks with your remaining shooting and close combat. And then you die.

 

Boost that up to 6 bikes, and it's 230 points. Same thing happens, 3 to 4 more Orks die than the previous scenario, and then you die. By the hand of a much cheaper squad, no less.

 

Even if to simply deny the 'Furious Charge' special rule, there are extremely few cases where a Space Marine would prefer assaulting an Ork squad over shooting it. (Obvious exceptions are Assault Squads, etc.).

[Garath]

Azrael Turnbull is right about a ton of tacticals.

 

I wouldn't suggest using codex SM for the sole reason that Dark Angel players are the proudest mofos out there- always where and always will be!

 

GW made other marines cheaper, their CML heavy 2, denied Deathwing the 10 man terminator squad, taken away free choice of weapons on our speeders in squadrons ...and we didn't give up! They even took our stubborn/intractible rule!

 

All this didn't make US any less stubborn :D

 

 

Back to your game now that this is out of my system... yes a ton of marines ...

 

 

Instead of sternguard, take more marines.

 

60 is the magical number, if you can deploy 60 marines plus toys he will have a hard time dealing with them. Do not separate your squads, support is key. If one tactical squad shoots at a target ,another should help out.

Devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters is also a good choice, 225 for the full unit.

[march10k]

In assault, Initiative 1 holds you no favours with standard Orks, and the Nobz will be T5 on bikes and therefore str 8 will cause instant death.

 

 

I thought that the change from T 4(5) to straight up T5 was across the board...so thunderhammers wouldn't instakill them any more???

[Azrael Turnbull]

In assault, Initiative 1 holds you no favours with standard Orks, and the Nobz will be T5 on bikes and therefore str 8 will cause instant death.

 

 

I thought that the change from T 4(5) to straight up T5 was across the board...so thunderhammers wouldn't instakill them any more???

 

I'm glad you saw that and brought it up. Yes, you are right, they can not be caused instant death. That was actually the point I was trying to get across, but I must have been typing too fast and missed the 'not' in the sentence.

 

Read the quote you pulled through again and, with that in mind, you will see that I am not lying.

 

I will now edit my original post.

[librisrouge]

So...triple Vindicators anybody? Seems that deals with Nobs and massed boyz better than anything else we currently have available. With that in mind, what would be taken against the flyers that has a chance of taking them down? Just fill in the remaining list with tacticals and as many Aegis Defense Lines as you're allowed to actually take?

[Artemid]

In assault, Initiative 1 holds you no favours with standard Orks, and the Nobz will be T5 on bikes and therefore str 8 will cause instant death.

 

 

I thought that the change from T 4(5) to straight up T5 was across the board...so thunderhammers wouldn't instakill them any more???

 

Did you fail to read my last post correctly? I know that they are toughness 5, I know Thunder Hammers can't cause instant death, I missed the 'not' in my sentence whilst I was typing my first post.

 

If you're going to continue being picky about typo's and not what I actually meant, I will view you with little credibility.

 

Seems like a very delayed double post to me?

[Sviar]

Thank you for your vaulabe information, tips and suggestions. I going to borrow another Vindicator for the fight.My thought on the Termis with TH/SS was to tie upp the Nobz for a couple of turns, while I kill their kins, and the SS gives me a 3+ or a 4+ inv. save (can not remember which). But I may have to rethink this with all the awesome info you have given me.

Azrael Turnbull posted a impressive list, unfortunately I can not use that since this match is part of a tournament(only legal rules). It is due to the mandatory requriments when using the allies rule. Our mandatory requriments are one HQ and two troop, when you ally with some other chapter you must then bring a HQ and one troop from their Codex as well(if I remember correctly). But I will use the tac squad equipment Flamer an PC because of your statment "I chose Plasma over ML as they wound on 2+ instead of 4+". As a bad die roller I'm going to need every advantage I can get. Lets hope that we get something like Sterguard and cheaper DP(which I use a lot) in our next Codex, that however is another thread.The only good thing using a C:SM(except for the Sterguard) are the Chaptermaster with a OB STR.10 AP1 large blast. It may scatter a little more than usual, but with 50 orks it is bound to hit something(hopefully the Nobz) :(

And I plan on using a lot of tac squads as Garath and Azrael Turnbull suggested.

I could sit here a write for a long time because 40K fascinates me(DA particularly), so I going to end with with a sincere thank you, I have read every post carefully and from them I have gatterd a ton of information.

[Azrael Turnbull]

Good luck in your fight, Sviar! I must reiterate that the assault will be on the bikers terms, so you'll have to work hard to get your Terminators into them.

 

Please let us know how the game goes when you return from the field of battle so we can rejoice or plan our vengeance accordingly! ^_^

[pueriexdeus]

I have played similar games with astounding success, and I don't have any Vindicators. My strategy was Devestators w/PC's & HB's, and proper placement of my forces.

 

DA can be shootie.

 

Forcing the Ork's to wade through 36" of fire decimates their capabilities quite well.

[Sviar]

Interesting did you put them in a ruin and used the Bolster the defenses rule.

[Azrael Turnbull]

Interesting did you put them in a ruin and used the Bolster the defenses rule.

 

Probably not; you don't often use cover saves against Orks.

[pueriexdeus]

Interesting did you put them in a ruin and used the Bolster the defenses rule.

Yes they were in ruins but no "Bolster Defense", I purposely set my forces deeper in my deployment zone forcing the OP to be at the 36" range on my first shot. At no times did the Orks ever make it half way across the table, so my defensive line never received any effective fire from the now walking Orks. On a side note; the OP was always in Truks and using DefKoptas.

[Azrael Turnbull]

Interesting did you put them in a ruin and used the Bolster the defenses rule.

Yes they were in ruins but no "Bolster Defense", I purposely set my forces deeper in my deployment zone forcing the OP to be at the 36" range on my first shot. At no times did the Orks ever make it half way across the table, so my defensive line never received any effective fire from the now walking Orks. On a side note; the OP was always in Truks and using DefKoptas.

 

You do realise we're talking about Ork Nobz on Bikes and Ork Flyers, right? Trukk Boyz were never an issue.

[pueriexdeus]

Interesting did you put them in a ruin and used the Bolster the defenses rule.

Yes they were in ruins but no "Bolster Defense", I purposely set my forces deeper in my deployment zone forcing the OP to be at the 36" range on my first shot. At no times did the Orks ever make it half way across the table, so my defensive line never received any effective fire from the now walking Orks. On a side note; the OP was always in Truks and using DefKoptas.

 

You do realise we're talking about Ork Nobz on Bikes and Ork Flyers, right? Trukk Boyz were never an issue.

Absolutely, The Bikes will still have to get into the DA deployment zone, and 36" still equals 3 turns of fire on them. I did not address the flyers because the op seemed more concerned with the Bikes.

 

As far as the flyers go I would put a couple Mortis dreads on duty since we now can take them. It can be found in the smupdate pdf found on the FW site.

[Sviar]

Probably not; you don't often use cover saves against Orks.

 

;) So true did not think about it

 

 

Absolutely, The Bikes will still have to get into the DA deployment zone, and 36" still equals 3 turns of fire on them.

 

Well, unless they turbo boost and get a 4+ cover save on top of that. The 6:th edition terrain rules are much better than the 5:th. What I can do is set terrain peices close to create passage ways and conentarte fire in to those, it is not possible to run 30 Orks through that so they must form a line. The bikes however do get cover for a turn...

I am going to take your advice and loose a Vindicator and use a PC and HB Devostator squad :D

 

 

As far as the flyers go I would put a couple Mortis dreads on duty since we now can take them. It can be found in the smupdate pdf found on the FW site.

 

I agree with you that this would solve my flyer problem. Too bad the people at my LGC do not allow FW rules in this tournament only Codex rules :(

[CovertToaster]

Probably not; you don't often use cover saves against Orks.

 

;) So true did not think about it

 

 

Absolutely, The Bikes will still have to get into the DA deployment zone, and 36" still equals 3 turns of fire on them.

 

Well, unless they turbo boost and get a 4+ cover save on top of that. The 6:th edition terrain rules are much better than the 5:th. What I can do is set terrain peices close to create passage ways and conentarte fire in to those, it is not possible to run 30 Orks through that so they must form a line. The bikes however do get cover for a turn...

I am going to take your advice and loose a Vindicator and use a PC and HB Devostator squad :D

 

 

As far as the flyers go I would put a couple Mortis dreads on duty since we now can take them. It can be found in the smupdate pdf found on the FW site.

 

I agree with you that this would solve my flyer problem. Too bad the people at my LGC do not allow FW rules in this tournament only Codex rules :(

 

I hate to tell you this dude, but ork bikes have the "exhaust cloud" rule which gives them a permanent 4+ cover save. It's a big part of the reason why they SUCK as you can pile on every save imaginable by chucking in a painboy, and watch out for a biker boss leading them as he will be in MC territory with T6.

[Sviar]

I hate to tell you this dude, but ork bikes have the "exhaust cloud" rule which gives them a permanent 4+ cover save.

 

Not good at all, thanks for the warning. Either shower them with so much bolter fire they got to fail some saves or get in there with my Termis and tie them up for the rest of the round. Hmm...

[Azrael Turnbull]

Interesting did you put them in a ruin and used the Bolster the defenses rule.

Yes they were in ruins but no "Bolster Defense", I purposely set my forces deeper in my deployment zone forcing the OP to be at the 36" range on my first shot. At no times did the Orks ever make it half way across the table, so my defensive line never received any effective fire from the now walking Orks. On a side note; the OP was always in Truks and using DefKoptas.

 

You do realise we're talking about Ork Nobz on Bikes and Ork Flyers, right? Trukk Boyz were never an issue.

Absolutely, The Bikes will still have to get into the DA deployment zone, and 36" still equals 3 turns of fire on them. I did not address the flyers because the op seemed more concerned with the Bikes.

 

As far as the flyers go I would put a couple Mortis dreads on duty since we now can take them. It can be found in the smupdate pdf found on the FW site.

 

I'm sorry, but I can't listen to this without saying something. What the hell did I just read?

 

Ok, let's break your scenario down, shall we? Let's say you get the first turn. Due to all of the terrain that you advise on using, the bikers can theoretically hide from view. They then turbo boost in their turn. You get ONE turn of shooting at them, because you set up close to your deployment limit.

 

If the Orks go first, they turbo boost, you get ONE turn of shooting at them because you set up close to your deployment limit.

 

You claim that the Ork opponents you face have never reached halfway across the table and are easy to deal with. Even if it was a trukk force, they would guarantee over half the table if they get the first turn because they can move more than 12" and there's nothing you can do to prevent that. If it was a foot slog army and they had first turn, you don't even have enough shots to take them all down in two turns even if all of them hit, wounded and all cover saves failed, so they're guaranteed to get over half the board, even if hampered by cover. Let's face it, why they hell would someone form an orderly line with a horde army? 2D6" and pick the highest, followed by running will more than likely give you more than 6" movement directly towards your end of the table per turn.

 

There are simply no scenarios where you can claim that Orks have little or no chance of being able to move more than 12" throughout the entire game whilst playing with a Dark Angel army under normal circumstances. Also, your claim of three whole turns of shooting before they can even hit you in close combat is absolutely ridiculous. I hate to say this, but either your opponents were beginners/idiots, or your gaming reports are exaggerated and/or completed fabricated.

 

Either way, I suggest you leave this kind of discussion to people who have experience against 'real' opponents and actually know what they're talking about.

 

That observation aside, it doesn't change the fact the Devastators are a good thing to have against Orks. I would normally use them rather than Termies as I do not think they earn their points against Orks, but I used them in the above army list as I knew that Sviar would use them even if we had advised against it. A player's favour of a particular unit usually seems to defeat the logic of fielding it regardless of how much it sets you back. This is evident even in experienced players. People using the Dark Angels codex over vanilla Marines to make a Greenwing list is a prime example. We love Dark Angels and as such usually choose to take the handicapped codex over the logical solution.

 

As for the Vindicators, they are equally useful as Devastators in this battle and half the cost (and can instant death T5 Nobz). The downside is that they're easy to deal with if your enemy has a decent amount of anti tank, whilst Devastators will remain alive for longer and can actually fight back in melee (somewhat). However, unless the Orks are wielding Lootas which can glance a Vindi on 6's (actually a scary thing in 6th), Vindicator's are pretty solid until it comes to close combat. With enough men on the field to cover it, close combat is something that Vindicator's don't have to worry about here. This is of course assuming the Ork player doesn't choose to leave his Bikers in the open at the middle of your forces after having charge a unit that's almost 1/8 of their points cost! That being said, beware multi-charging.

 

Whatever support units you choose to field, the important thing is to make sure that you have an abundant amount of Tactical squads. If the game turns out to be objective based (which it most likely will be), then simply killing more of them than they kill of you will still lose you the game if you can not hold the table at the same time.

[pueriexdeus]

Interesting did you put them in a ruin and used the Bolster the defenses rule.

Yes they were in ruins but no "Bolster Defense", I purposely set my forces deeper in my deployment zone forcing the OP to be at the 36" range on my first shot. At no times did the Orks ever make it half way across the table, so my defensive line never received any effective fire from the now walking Orks. On a side note; the OP was always in Truks and using DefKoptas.

 

You do realise we're talking about Ork Nobz on Bikes and Ork Flyers, right? Trukk Boyz were never an issue.

Absolutely, The Bikes will still have to get into the DA deployment zone, and 36" still equals 3 turns of fire on them. I did not address the flyers because the op seemed more concerned with the Bikes.

 

As far as the flyers go I would put a couple Mortis dreads on duty since we now can take them. It can be found in the smupdate pdf found on the FW site.

 

I'm sorry, but I can't listen to this without saying something. What the hell did I just read?

 

Ok, let's break your scenario down, shall we? Let's say you get the first turn. Due to all of the terrain that you advise on using, the bikers can theoretically hide from view. They then turbo boost in their turn. You get ONE turn of shooting at them, because you set up close to your deployment limit.

 

I have not advised using any terrain options. I did state that my Devs were in Ruins though. Page 45 of the BGB now states that Bike Turbo boost is no longer 18", you know that right

 

If the Orks go first, they turbo boost, you get ONE turn of shooting at them because you set up close to your deployment limit.

 

Wrong again, I most certainly did not advise setting up close to my deployment limit, but as far back in my zone as possible, allowing the most firing range possible.

 

You claim that the Ork opponents you face have never reached halfway across the table and are easy to deal with. Even if it was a trukk force, they would guarantee over half the table if they get the first turn because they can move more than 12" and there's nothing you can do to prevent that. If it was a foot slog army and they had first turn, you don't even have enough shots to take them all down in two turns even if all of them hit, wounded and all cover saves failed, so they're guaranteed to get over half the board, even if hampered by cover. Let's face it, why they hell would someone form an orderly line with a horde army? 2D6" and pick the highest, followed by running will more than likely give you more than 6" movement directly towards your end of the table per turn.

 

Yes thats right they never made it half way across the board. I had first turn and removed the truks out from under them immediately. Forcing them to foot slog across the board.

I never did claim the Orks would not be able to move over 12 inches throughout the game. I did say they will have to move through a 36" fire zone. Apparently your thinking that their is only a Lone Dev squad facing the onrushing Orks in my scenario. Not really their were Tacticals with their HW's, a RZRBK w/TLLC, etc.

 

There are simply no scenarios where you can claim that Orks have little or no chance of being able to move more than 12" throughout the entire game whilst playing with a Dark Angel army under normal circumstances. Also, your claim of three whole turns of shooting before they can even hit you in close combat is absolutely ridiculous. I hate to say this, but either your opponents were beginners/idiots, or your gaming reports are exaggerated and/or completed fabricated.

 

Again I never did claim the Orks would not be able to move over 12 inches throughout the game. I did say they will have to move through a 36" fire zone. Under normal circumstances the DA players will usually want to close with the enemy as soon as possible, bad move with Orks, I'm not normal. And the Ork player never made it into CC, so it was actually five turns of shooting him to death. Yes he was less experienced than me, but nothing is fabricated nor exaggerated.

 

Either way, I suggest you leave this kind of discussion to people who have experience against 'real' opponents and actually know what they're talking about.

 

Yep you really should follow your own advice on this one. It is clear from your tone that your not an experienced player, and have already conceded defeat against such an Ork army. As an experienced player I know that it is possible to do exactly what I have said using the proper techniques, tactics, and procedures, because I have done it.

 

That observation aside, it doesn't change the fact the Devastators are a good thing to have against Orks. I would normally use them rather than Termies as I do not think they earn their points against Orks, but I used them in the above army list as I knew that Sviar would use them even if we had advised against it. A player's favour of a particular unit usually seems to defeat the logic of fielding it regardless of how much it sets you back. This is evident even in experienced players. People using the Dark Angels codex over vanilla Marines to make a Greenwing list is a prime example. We love Dark Angels and as such usually choose to take the handicapped codex over the logical solution.

 

As for the Vindicators, they are equally useful as Devastators in this battle and half the cost (and can instant death T5 Nobz). The downside is that they're easy to deal with if your enemy has a decent amount of anti tank, whilst Devastators will remain alive for longer and can actually fight back in melee (somewhat). However, unless the Orks are wielding Lootas which can glance a Vindi on 6's (actually a scary thing in 6th), Vindicator's are pretty solid until it comes to close combat. With enough men on the field to cover it, close combat is something that Vindicator's don't have to worry about here. This is of course assuming the Ork player doesn't choose to leave his Bikers in the open at the middle of your forces after having charge a unit that's almost 1/8 of their points cost! That being said, beware multi-charging.

 

Whatever support units you choose to field, the important thing is to make sure that you have an abundant amount of Tactical squads. If the game turns out to be objective based (which it most likely will be), then simply killing more of them than they kill of you will still lose you the game if you can not hold the table at the same time.

So @Azrael Turnbull I'm not sure why your panties are all up your crack, you should really pull'em out. You have unsuccessfully attempted to attribute several statements that I never said, and have called me a liar. Bad form, since English is your primary language I cant give you a pass on translation errors. Since I have 20+ years as a Dark Angel player I do know what I am talking about.

 

This thread is about offering opinions on unit choices and tactics that might assist the player, not attacking others because you haven't the experience to understand what they are saying. Since I have only offered information based on experience I would suggest that you do the same. Tell us how you have dealt with and defeated hoard armies, what is your tactica using Vindicators in this scenario? I would love to learn something new.