FNP and FW

[arisen]

I'm kind of at a loss with this; since FNP isn't a saving throw (as you get it against perils), where does that leave the interaction between FNP and activating FW since both seem to happen at the same time?

 

Or am I overlooking something?

 

So for example, does a unit of nobz with a painboy get their FNP if I subsequently hit and wound them with a FW, they fail their cybork invul, and I choose to activate them?

Or do I roll one at a time, only being able to activate after he fails his FNP roll?

 

Your imput is very much appreciated :D

[Seahawk]

It all depends on whose turn it currently is. If it's the FNP player's turn, he'll likely say FNP happens before ID. The GK player can say the opposite on his turn.

[RedemptionNL]

Actually, as Force weapons in 6th now say that they have to choose whether or not to activate their Force weapons immediately after inflicting an unsaved wound, and Feel No Pain doesn't, Force Weapons precede Feel No Pain in either player's turn.

 

If you play Feel No Pain first, you basically break two rules:

- It is no longer 'immediately' if you play Feel No Pain between the infliction of the unsaved wound and the activating of the force weapons.

- You took a Feel No Pain save against a weapon that (most likely would have) inflicted Instant Death.

 

And if you play Force Weapons first, you don't break any rules. The same argument goes for similar weapons that have a chance to inflict Instant Death based on a dice roll taken immediately after inflicting an unsaved wound, such as Tyranid Bone Swords.

[Gentlemanloser]

Doesn't the new FAQs cover this?

 

I'm sure there's something on FnP and ID in there.

[RedemptionNL]

Only things clarified by the new FAQs is that you can never take FNP against weapons with the Instant Death USR, and that Eternal Warrior doesn't counter this. You also always use the wound allocation rules for mixed armour saves if at least one model in the unit has Feel No Pain.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, FnP isn't a save.

 

A Force Weapon gets activated and inflicts ID when an unsaved wound happens.

 

And you can't use FnP versus a weapon that inflicts ID.

 

Seems cut and dry to me that you can't use FnP when suffering an unsaved wound from an activated Force Weapon. ^_^

[RedemptionNL]

Aye, but some people are questioning the timing of when the force weapon activates, before or after you get a change to ignore the wound with Feel No Pain. I say the force weapon always gets a chance to activate before FNP due to the 'immediately after' wording, as I explained above. The other side of the argument are those who say the two effects occurs simultaneously, so the player who's turn it is gets to decide the order.

[Gentlemanloser]

Order doesn't matter.

 

The FnP roll if you make it, is wasted. Even if sucessful.

 

Consider the order of the FnP roll going first. You suffer an unsaved wound, you roll FnP and pass. The Force Weapon then activates (as the mini suffered an unsaved wound, the sucessful FnP roll isn't a save. ^_^ ) and ID's the mini. The successful FnP 'save' can't be taken versus ID, so the mini dies.

[RedemptionNL]

The FNP rules state that if the FNP roll is passed, the unsaved wound is discounted and treated as being saved. Hence there would arguably be no more trigger condition for other effects that trigger of unsaved wounds.

[King Willy]

It seems to be the FNP would go off at same time so roll off to see what happens, but reading the rules makes me think FNP would go off just to see if the force weapon can even try to activate.

 

Yes, FNP doesn't use the word immediately but it says "each time an unsaved wound is suffered" and it can cause an unsaved wound to become a saved wound, according to it's wording, 'Treat it as having been saved' and because you activate force weapons after a model has failed to save a wound it doesn't technically cause instant death until after FNP has been rolled for and the final number of unsaved wounds is accounted for.

If there are no wounds, caused by the FNP treating them as saved wounds, then you can't say the force weapon can go off as no unsaved wounds occured and thus can't test to make it instant death, which means you can make a FNP save against it.

 

But again conflict so roll off or argue till GW spits out an FAQ.

[stephane4985]

This is GW fault to try to complicate things too much for no f****** reasons. They could have just said that FW, once activated at the start of the phase, cause instant death, instead of all the useless crap having to wound first for the weapon to be activated. It add nothing but confusion to achieve the same result at the end.

 

They think they are clever by using fancy wording on their rules and that makes them cool. They just are overcomplicating jerks.

[thade]

Refer to The Spirit of the Game and The Most Important Rule, very early on in the rulebook. <3

 

In general, whoever's turn it is gets to choose the order of operations when they are otherwise unclear; Seahawk's answer is on the money.

[ValourousHeart]

I think it has more to with the restrictions on FNP as opposed to trying to give one USR an advantage over another.

FNP say you can't use it vs ID weapons.

So you need to check if this is an ID weapon first...

Which is where you have the chance to activate a FW.

If you fail.. FNP... If you succeed... No FNP.

[arisen]

Thanks for the insights battlebrothers, it's a lot clearer to me now :D

 

Basically how I understand it now, it's "Fail invul, check if the wound is ID (which in this case needs a Ld test as opposed to e.g. immediate S8 vs T4) if it is, no FNP."

[Seahawk]

I except your premise. However, I reject your conclusion.

 

I) A model that takes a wound from an instant death weapon receives no armor save or FNP.

 

II) If a model that suffers a wound from a force weapon, the wielder can attempt to make the wound cause instant death by passing a leadership test.

 

III) If a model that suffers a wound the wounded model can attempt to make a Feel No Pain Save as long as the wound does not cause instant Death.

 

IV) If two actions take place at the same time during the game. Whomever player turn it is can decide the order in which the events takes place.

 

V) Therefore, if it is my turn and my model suffers a wound from a force weapon, I can choose to use my FNP since the wound does not cause instant death at that time.

 

VI) Furthermore, If it is my turn and I cause a wound with my force weapon I can choose to activate it before my opponent can take a FNP in order to make the wound cause instant death.

[RedemptionNL]

IV) If two actions take place at the same time during the game. Whomever player turn it is can decide the order in which the events takes place.

Which is true, but do Feel No Pain and Force Weapons/Boneswords/Necrons with Entropic Strike/etc really occur at the same time? These type of rules state they take place immediately after suffering an unsaved wound, while Feel No Pain does not.

 

To ninja Jidmah's illustration:

 

http://www.lordmaul.de/relative.jpg

[Azekai]

I miss 5th edition.

[thade]

I miss 5th edition.

haha nooooooooooooooooooo! <3

 

It's not that bad. At least this edition gives us a way to resolve it. "Spirit of the Game." If you both really disagree, dice it off or give it to the other guy; better to play the game than be right about it, no?

 

The game doesn't stand up to this level of structural analysis; there's no MTG-style stack, and at times the order-of-operations are implicit or left to whichever player's turn it is to decide upon it. Just the way the game is built and it's something we learn to live with. Dice it off or let it slide. It's cool. If your faith in the Emperor is strong enough, you will prevail. <3

[worloch]

A FNP roll can not be made until you have suffered an unsaved wound. Once the unsaved wound has occurred, the FW user "immediately" can check to see if they can activate. Because FNP retro-actively states to treat the wound as having been saved, the FW trigger must occur, and when it does, it has a chance to negate the FNP check altogether, per the Instant Death and FNP rules.

 

 

Really, you just end up in circular logic if you get too hung up on it. If you read it literally, FNP removes its own trigger. And while the rule that current player determines the order of events for simultaneous actions does exist, I really believe it is intended more so for corner cases and less for what I would consider core rules. Force Weapons and Feel No Pain interactions are going to come up often enough that I don't think it is a good mechanic to have the rules result dependent on the current players turn.

[Azekai]

It's not that bad. At least this edition gives us a way to resolve it. "Spirit of the Game." If you both really disagree, dice it off or give it to the other guy; better to play the game than be right about it, no?

 

The game doesn't stand up to this level of structural analysis;

 

Yeah, I completely agree with you there!

there's no MTG-style stack, and at times the order-of-operations are implicit or left to whichever player's turn it is to decide upon it. Just the way the game is built and it's something we learn to live with. Dice it off or let it slide. It's cool. If your faith in the Emperor is strong enough, you will prevail. <3

I just never remember having worry about 'order of operations' at all. Having to pick apart such basic things like land raider ramps or FnP is rather silly, and speaks of a certain level of incoherence on the part of GW writing staff. This new version of 40k is like windows vista all over again.

[thade]

Force Weapons and Feel No Pain interactions are going to come up often enough that I don't think it is a good mechanic to have the rules result dependent on the current players turn.

Fundamentally I agree with you and - honestly - in practice I suspect I'll always allow FW to negate FNP for my BA-codex using marines (I play against a lot of GK) no matter whose turn it is. Tournies will likely operate as Seahawk explains. Local to you it may be either or something different you decide based on dice, experience, and camaraderie.

 

ADDENDUM: This may interest some people. When I play as GK, the reverse will be true: I will allow my opponent a FNP save prior to my activiation of my own force weapons, if the choice is mine. Why? Because it's sporting, polite, and friendly-like. In general, if something is dubious, I give it to my opponent's advantage; if they ever ask "Do you think I get a cover save" I always say "Sure!" I never anticipate nor treat any opponent as if they are going to cheat me or try to loophole a rule or something. If I suspected that of them, I wouldn't play them in the first place. <3