Flying Daemons

[SamaNagol]

Fateweaver, a Greater Daemon and 3 Princes.... flying around causing havoc. Screamers. Flamers. Plaguebearers to score.

 

What do we have for this? Stormravens, sure. But if the GD is a Thirster it can knock it out the sky.

 

Just try and get one lucky hit on Fateweaver to ground him then assault?

 

Finding it difficult personally

[Remtek]

What kind of list are you running? They are susceptible to alot of small arms fire. Dont assault flamers. Their largest weakness is deployment turn 1 and 2, try and exploit that.

[Zeller]

How about 30 TH/SS TDA with a priest per squad?

[Morticon]

How about 30 TH/SS TDA with a priest per squad?

 

The list he noted above is easily workable into a 1500-1750 list.

This solution is 1320 points alone and you still need 2 scoring troops (min and an HQ).

 

Also, if you have this many terms, all he needs to do is continually boost over you with the screamers and the vector striking units- makes things tough for you. Its not that efficient a solution I fear.

 

 

OP - My suggestion will add 265 points to your army (or take away 265 points). It's a SM Libby with JP with null zone/avenger and 10 scouts with rifles. I would also strongly suggest an Aegis if you dont already have.

 

From that point you WILL need a raven I feel.

 

Mephiston will help to get FW locked in combat and challenged, meaning from that point only one unit is leaving alive.

 

(Either Mephy or Sang!) Why either of these because of their potential charge/threat range.

 

 

Very successful Daemons rely heavily on combat, not shooting. This means that fateweaver is going to be aggressive to come to you. Keep your army tight, and try to isolate fateweaver.

 

How you place objectives is also VERY important. As a BA you usually benefit from packing them together. DONT do this against a FW list. Have the objectives as FAR apart as you can make them. Also, consider leaving a JP unit in reserve to pester the plagues that will undoubtedly be dropping onto the objectives at the back.

 

Also, with your scouts, unless you're playing KP - combat squad them up and mess with his strike potential. Put them into open spaces near his back objectives and you force him to land into cover.

 

Hope this helps.

[SamaNagol]

Thank you Mort, that was very insightful!

[Killax]

Perhaps a wierd thought here:

 

Use Daemonhunter(Grey Knight) allies?

[Xenith]

Fateweaver is the lynchpin to this army, and will likely keep zooming to be harder to hit. Keeping a load of zooming stuff together can be difficult, so try to predict where his stuff has to go.

 

Ignore fateweaver, hitting on 6's with a rerollable 3++ will just waste firepower. Play the objective game. Kill the plaguebearers, and he cannot win. If an MC glides to get you in combat, pounce on it.

 

Rapid firing bolters should take care of flamers.

 

Mort's Null zone suggestion is also a good one.

[Ushtarador]

I'd also have suggested Mephiston and a nullzone libby, but Mort is spot on, as usual :) If you can cover all the favorable landing areas of the table, he'll have to drop far back or risk scattering into your units, and since blood angels are usually pretty fast, it is then easy to pull our army back together after the first wave has arrived.

Gaining the advantage in turns 1&2 is key indeed, if you manage to jump a big daemon with most of your army while it's mostly unsupported, you should bring it down with minimal losses and make your task considerably easier.

[Jolemai]

But if the GD is a Thirster it can knock it out the sky.

 

Forgive my ignorance, but how does that work?

[IK Viper]

Alot of flying deamons have the Vector Strike rule which inflict hits on one unit they fly over, this affects flyers also... so their best option to kill flyers is to vector strike it with a high strength monster ie a Blood Thirster

[IK Viper]

flying mosterous creatures can use the Vector Strike special rule, which inflicts hits on a single target they fly over in thier movement phase I think, the hits are resolved at thier base strength so a high strength Daemon can use this to damage flyers, even a Stormraven.

 

I have not played against Flamers much and they seemed hard to kill to me, you cant double them out since they are deamons and they are jump troops so you cant outrun them once they get down

 

What do yall think about setting your guys up in circles so that the flamers don't catch as much even with a good scatter?

 

I am assuming that going second is an obvious choice as well since it allows you to catch them static off the drop.

 

No experience against Screamers what do they do? I know they are fast but what else?

[Jolemai]

Cheers :rolleyes:

[Chaplain Admetus]

Fatey will die eventually - remember you only need one wound and there's a not unreasonable chance he'll sod off.

 

I'd this article as good reading for anyone struggling with a flying daemons list - its a flying daemons tactica that went up on BolS not too long ago, entitled "Taking Down the Daemonic Flying Circus" from about a week ago - http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/09/40k...ing-circus.html . I found it very good reading, and its similar to how I play against Big Stuff daemons. Hit the troops first, and the rest when you can. Just bear in mind that the information might not be 100% accurate as I believe it went up just before the FAQs hit.

 

Best thing to bear in mind is that this is often an army that uses Fateweaver as a lynchpin. Your key turns are 1,2 and 5 - 1 and 2 (dependent on first turn) to hit them whilst they only have half an army, and 5 because that's the point where everything has to leave Space Budgie's bubble to go get objectives. He can't cover everyone.

 

Mort's advice is, as usual, superb - Landing zone denial is a great way to fight Daemons; use the threat of the mishap table to force them into unfavourable positions. Alternatively, try taking GK allies and start spamming warp quake...Daemons don't like that very much... If you can force even one key unit out of position, its enough - ideally Feathers mishaps- and if anything does he's 1) not on the table permanently - excellent start, 2) away for a turn and now has to roll like everyone else - make your advantage count, or 3) you get to place him - shove him in dangerous terrain to force the test just to be a knob, preferably somewhere where it'll take at least two turns to be useful.

[Ushtarador]

Alternatively, try taking GK allies and start spamming warp quake..

 

Heh, thats the really lame tactics there. If you manage to go first you can easily cover up to 2/3 of the table with just 10 guys and force him to deploy very far back ^^

[Azekai]

Alternatively, try taking GK allies and start spamming warp quake...Daemons don't like that very much... If you can force even one key unit out of position, its enough - ideally Feathers mishaps- and if anything does he's 1) not on the table permanently - excellent start, 2) away for a turn and now has to roll like everyone else - make your advantage count, or 3) you get to place him - shove him in dangerous terrain to force the test just to be a knob, preferably somewhere where it'll take at least two turns to be useful.

If you are warpquake spamming against an army that has to DS you are already a knob. :)

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Mephiston, Prescience Librarian (to Bless shooting in order to knock them down from flying), Null Zone Librarian, and/or Furioso Dreadnoughts (maybe even ally an Ironclad Dreadnought?)

 

AV13 Dreads are not a bad choice here, IMO. Chaos MC would have to halve their attacks to Smash (so will get 2 or 3 attacks if charging), and ability to survive is still not bad. They hit on 3+, then at Str10 they have 4+ to penetrate, then they have to roll 5+ to kill the Dread. So overall, your chances are not bad at all. I don't think getting Hull Point Attritted would be too terribly bad to worry about either. At the very least, AV13 that locks the MC in combat may be able to fix them in place for 2 or 3 phases. And if you get the hot hand, you have a real good shot to kill that MC since none of them can have better than 3+ Sv, so Talons work just fine. Especially in conjunction with Null Zone or Prescience.

 

Speaking of AP3, Mephiston has a better chance of killing them than they killing him. I'll crunch the math-hammer when I get home.

 

Another thought is a SW Runepriest-- that Runeweapon always wounds Daemons on 2+. Surviveability is low, but you might roll Precognition on Divination table so it was somewhat worth mentioning. More pertinent, if you take SW allies then you can take a LoneWolf with chainfist/stormshield who always rerolls hits against MC. Also you get Prescience to Bless shooting, or bless a Furioso whose Talons then have a real great shot to bag a MC.

 

Not to mention MC don't have frag grenades, so if they charge into cover they are initiative 1 (unless Slaneesh).

 

EDIT: Of course a Stormraven is also a great idea. Pummel a FMC of choice upon arrival--- go for one that will give you the most trouble on the ground (ie a Bloodthirster). And if you have a quadgun, you have good chances to ground one when you need to.

 

Oh Mephiston inside a Raven has a 4+ Deny the Witch against a Bolt of Change, and then a 5+ Jink if you need it. And only Bloodthirsters really matter for Vector Strike against AV12. And if the Vector Strike even does any damage, usually it'll just cause a hull-point. And any turn he's vector striking your Raven, he's not on the ground munching troops.

[Mordenkenain]

I know someone else suggested getting the objectives spread out, but i would suggest the opposite tactic, group up the ojectives as much as possible, then either everything will be deep striking in a small easily contained area (take flamers/combi-flamers) or have to drop in the middle of nowhere and then footslog over to the objectiives, obviously don't try to grab the objectives till after your opponent has DSed, then once everything thats not flying is dead, turtle up on the objectives and meet any attempt to charge you with a wall of bolters and flamers, while shooting anything else which pops up on subsequent turns, just DO NOT take a raven for this tactic, it's like running a rhino towards a pre-5th fex, it WILL be destroyed, it WILL happen quickly, and it WILL NOT be pretty. Simply put, flyers are too tasty a target for the daemonic flying circus.

 

My other suggestion would be to go for the air-superiority tactics, shoehorn 3 storm ravens in, then take an ally with even more flyers (kofkofIGkofkof) and blast the daemons out of the sky... I don't think this would be an effective army, but it might convince them to ease up on the FMCs

[Chaplain Admetus]

I know its a complete dick move - but it is a way to fight against them. Its not something I'd personally do, but I figured the option was worth throwing out there nonetheless.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Ah-- I see now that Smash attack does not reduce to Initiative 1 (not sure why I thought that), and Smash attacks can re-roll their Armor Penetration roll. So the Furioso Dread is less desireable than I originally thought. If you're charging out of a Stormraven, they will only get 2 attacks though--- so they can't kill you through Hull Points (in one turn) and they have to roll 5+ on the penetrate table if they want to kill you before you get your swings.

 

So less equal matchup than I thought, but you still got a shot to kill one MC, especially if you have Talons with Prescience or Null Zone.

 

Further research makes me less scared of them though. A Tzeentch marked DP with nastiness can crest 300pts, and is only T5. A DC Unit can rip straight through one on the charge, re-roll invulns or not. The trick will be to convince the FMC to land (if you lack weight of fire to ground one yourself).

 

For me, it looks like IG allies will do excellently here because you will need cheap screens to keep the nasties off of your important Units. Plus a Vendetta won't go amiss, not one bit. Vendetta and Raven together can do a lot to fix your problems.

[Godhead]

Just as an FYI, don't underestimate daemon shooting. A single horror has an assault 3 str 4 ap4 shot. Flamers have the same gift but on a bs 4 model (not counting the horrible horrible flame templates). From playing my daemons since 6th and flamers after the WD update, they are a bit more durable than I initially thought. Granted they only have a 5++ save, but they also have 2 wounds which keeps them around far longer than I had expected. I run 3 squads of 6 and they do most of my heavy lifting in my army.

 

With a fateweaver list though, Mort is right. Spread them out (which also happens to help keep your army a bit safer from the flamers). This will force the daemon player to either split his forces thereby reducing how much influence fateweaver will have on the game, or it will force him to focus a flank. Fateweaver is only toughness 5, so bolters work just fine for chipping off wounds from him. Kill the flamers and screamers. Fateweaver is kind of Meh in assault as well. If you can knock him down, and then tarpit him in assault (or outright kill him as he only has 3 wound and is Ld 9, so every wound could possibly be his last), you force the daemon player to make some tough decisions. Just bear in mind that if you do this, he could overwatch breath of chaos which is a d3 auto hits that ignores cover and armor saves and wounds on a 4 up.

 

The other thing is focus fire. Shoot units until dead. Try to remove the most immediate threats and work from there. A single flamer left alive can ruin your day.

 

Being on the receiving end of a vector strike suck, but put yourself into some area terrain and unless I am missing something, you should be able to get cover saves. Otherwise those hits are base str, but ap3. And remember, KILL the FLAMERS :D

 

Some food for thought, In my 2k list if I didn't flame a single thing and every model is on the board, I put out 114 str 4 shots a round up to 18 inches out. That is comparible to 5 1/2 Tactical squads in rapid fire range. Alternatively I have 21 flame templates that ignore armor saves and auto wounds on 4s, and 5 flying monsterous creatures. The thing is my troops are MSU, my firepower is concentrated in a few units, and my flying MC's are vulnerable to small arms fire. You force a grounded checks on HIT not wounds, so just score a hit and if they fall, then open up on them with the bigger guns to remove them from the game. Dumping stormbolter shots off of rhinos can be pretty mean this way.

 

Any ways, those are just some of my thoughts from fighting BA's with my flying circus (my stepson plays BA's). Hopefully my rambling made some sense and someone finds it helpful.

 

Oh btw, Sam, what kind of list are you running?

[Jorre]

Divination Libby's in terminator armour with storm shield!

 

In my expierence they are always man of the match vs my demons mate. Almost All the powers are good.

 

1. Misfortune forces them to reroll saves! Or cancels out kairos rerolls!

2. Rerolls to hit! Awsome when snap shooting or trying to krak grenade a demon prince to death!

3. 4++ invul to squad within 12! Awsome power considering 90% of the flying circus ignore armour saves!

4. Rerolls to hit/wound/save to the Libby! Best power ever vs demons if you are in terminator armour with a storm shield! You can tank a blood thirster or pretty much anything with this power! Fnp just makes it better to!

 

The other powers are less impressive but not bad!

 

Also storm ravens and quad guns to give you a chance at grounding!

 

2 attack bikes with heavy bolters are great for grounding to. 2x3 HB shots + 2 x twin linked bolters will almost always hit something even with snap fire!

[Chaplain Admetus]

If anyone wants to see a masterclass on how not to beat flying daemons, go check out game 13 in my battle report thread... stupid flying monstrous creatures....

[Killax]

Jeebus, even using Grey Knights as allies (where they should be; vs daemons) is considerd a dink move?

 

So if it's true to fluff and a logical step, your a dink?

 

Good luck with the ram-sham tactics or use units made to beat them.

[Morticon]

Yeh, Im kinda with you on that Killax. Also, depends if its a theme to beat scenario or a tourney. If you're loading up on GK warp spam to beat your bestie in a pickup game, it may be a bit much. Tourney, go for it i say.

[Chaplain Admetus]

I've got a game against daemons next week and I'm not going to add them specifically for that. However, if I keep getting beaten badly by daemons, a squad or two might find a way into my Throne of Skulls list if I can't find a superior way to fight them.