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Long Fangs or Grey Hunters?


Bearingtheword

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Need some thoughts on which way to go here....

 

Do I add a 3rd small GH pack with a TLLC razorback / LC TLPG razorback or a 2nd Long Fangs pack w/ the razorback?

 

To give some background on the rest of the list:

 

I am running Bran Redmaw w/ a group of Fen wolves (Using Bran's SoH), a RP and WGPL(tda and th/ss) w/ a 10 man GH pack (Using Bran Redmaws SR to come in behind enemy lines), a WP w/ SoH and WGPL(tda and fa/ss) w/ a 10 man GH Pack (coming in BEL), a Wolfpriest w/ SoWolfkin leading a 4 man Swiftclaw pack (w/ attack bike), a WGPL(Combi-wep) led Long Fangs pack (SL, 3 ML's and a HB) w/ a Razorback (TLLC or LC and TLPG) and a AC and DCCW w/ heavy flamer dred (with ability to swap out a PC for the AC when needed).

 

Obviously going pretty much fluffy with this but still want to be somewhat competitive. Either way the list will be more of an annihilation than an objective holder list, I'm guessing, but i still would like some thoughts on whether to go with the 3rd small (5 man + WGPL) GH pack in a razorback or the 2nd LF pack (same set up as first) in a razorback.

 

Thanks in advance....

 

~BtW

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Another vote for 2nd LF pack, but lose the razorback, 1 av11 tank wont last past turn 1. Also I see your going fluffy but a few changes could net you a 3rd gh pack in addition.

Im loving these bran lists, working on one myself actually. The biggest thing I would consider though is what you have on the board while your force is outflanking. The list is certainly cool but with 3 of your 4 main units outflanking (im not counting the fen wolves) the remnants look like easy pickings turns 1-3. To me this is a shout out for for more longfangs and grey hunters our less outflanking, or both. otoh if you can flood the board with enough efficient and resilient bodies while maintaining that many outflankers I think you will do ok. Just some thoughts.

Resilience was a bit of a worry for me as well....particularly at the start when the units are in reserve. I had entertained the idea of a pair of Predators, but that eliminates the 3rd GH pack/2nd LF pack and the razorbacks...Thoughts?

 

~BtW

Another vote for 2nd LF pack, but lose the razorback, 1 av11 tank wont last past turn 1.

 

This is a popular misconception with 6E.. one that I don't agree with and after a few battles under my belt, have found to not be true. Some of my matches, I have found the two razorbacks that I use to still be cruising across the tabletop at the end of Turn 5.

 

That said, even though I agree with the 1 GH per 500 rule, I also feel we should have 2 packs of LFs when above 1500pts, so imo I would do both and cut points somewhere else. If that's not possible, then I guess go with LFs, and maybe drop one of the GHs to two 5 man packs.

I could possibly squeeze both, although one wouldn't have a razorback, in if I drop MoR from my rune priest and cut a few other corners. Or If I cut the RB's out all together I could include both and expand the size of the 3rd GH pack...Thoughts on going this route?

 

Should I keep my RP with MoR? Should I keep the Razorbacks?

 

Thanks again for the input, finding it helpful as always

 

~BtW

This is a popular misconception with 6E.. one that I don't agree with and after a few battles under my belt, have found to not be true. Some of my matches, I have found the two razorbacks that I use to still be cruising across the tabletop at the end of Turn 5.

How is this is a common misconception? Av11 is still av11. I suppose if the OPs meta is full of absolutely nothing but infantry/anti-infantry then survivability could go up due to target priority of light armour being lower on the threat scale?

 

If thats the case then cool but 6E hasnt changed many of my opponents lists at all in regard to armour and against these armies with 12-20 missiles or BAs RB + predator spam or crons/GKs in general a lone av11 chassis will be the first thing dead.

To clarify im not against armour if thats the misconception you speak of because I agree this whole "armour sucks in 6th" mantra is BS, but 6E 40k is still very similar to 5th and the fundamentals of list design have not changed. As a general rule im just against single armour inclusions, podded (BA) dreads and such aside.

 

 

BtW- Do you have a list posted? Looks like you could downgrade a few things without any real loss in performance to get what you want. I like your idea of preds and razorbacks, but bring 2 of each. 4 cheap gun platforms on chassis force your opponent to have AT, LFs dont. LFs are obviously the best ranged threat for SWs by far, but they are susceptible to every gun in the opposing army which in this list is a serious consideration due to so many pts in reserve.

Its arguable but I think in this list dakka predators may be better than LFs simply due to being lower costed ranged threats that dont die to every single gun. i.e. If you cant put enough packs on the board to make them survivable and a threat then spamming cheap armour is a more cost efficient alternative.

I vote Long Fangs if your going just after killing power. Not that GH do not have killing power but they may soften up the table for your reserves. I would also alter things some and sqeeze in a GH pack you have lots of toys and thus fewer boys. From what I have been reading vehicles have not been hindered as hard as first thought but I imagine vehicle spam is greater than one or two sitting there waiting to be picked off in the first round or two, but that may be what you need in this list, something to be targeted over your Long Fangs.

Because it was asked about I'll post the actual list I have up done up to so far. As I have done most of the modeling so far, I'd like to not have to bust anything up. Still curious on the thoughts about taking Master of Runes in the Rune priest or not as that will free up 50 pts if it's not a definite need to have it.

 

List is going for 2000 pts. As my gaming group is pretty casual I can go over by less than 10 pts if necessary (so 2009 is ok, 2010 is not)

 

 

HQ

Bran Redmaw - 210 pts

 

Rune Priest - 185 pts

(Master of Runes, Runic armour, Wolf Tail Talisman, Chooser of the Slain) Will be with GH pack #1, using Redmaw's Patient Hunter SR to come in BEL.

 

Wolf Priest - 130 pts

(Plasma pistol, Saga of the Hunter, Wolf Tail Talisman, Meltabombs) Will Be with GH Pack #2, using SoH to come in BEL. Could drop the Plasma pistol for a Bolt Pistol

 

Wolf Priest - 170 pts

(Bike, Saga of the Wolfkin, Wolf Tail Talisman, Combi- melta, meltabombs) Leading the Swiftclaw pack. Could switch to another combi type or drop it alltogether.

 

Elites

Wolf Guard Pack - 159 pts

(Wolf Guard Pack Leader #1- TDA and TH/SS. With GH Pack #1)

(Wolf Guard Pack Leader #2- TDA and Frost Axe/SS. With GH Pack #2)

(Wolf Guard Pack Leader #3- PA and Wolf Claw with Combi-Plas with either Long Fang Pack or GH pack, if added) Can swap to another type of combi if needed

 

Dreadnought - 115 pts

(Assault cannon, DCCW with Heavy Flamer)

 

Troops

Grey Hunter Pack #1- 205 pts

(1 w/ Plasma Pistol, 1 w/ Flamer, 1 w/ Plasma Gun, 1 w/ Power axe*, 1 w/ Wolf Standard, 1 w/ Mark of the Wulfen)

*Magnetized so can be swapped out with Powerfist or chainsword

 

Grey Hunter Pack #2 - 195 pts

(1 w/ Plasma Pistol, 1 w/ flamer, 1 w/ plasma gun, 1 w/ Power axe*, 1 w/ Mark of the Wulfen)

*Magnetized as above

No wolf Standard taken here as Wolf Priest has re-rolls, but open for discussion.

 

Fast Attack

Swiftclaw Pack- 115 pts

(3 Bikes, 1 attack bike w/ Heavy Bolter, 1 w/ meltagun

 

Fenrisian Wolves - 64 pts

(8 Fen wolves running with Bran Redmaw using his SoH)

 

Heavy Support

Long Fangs Pack #1- 110 pts

(5 LF's; 1 Squad Leader, 1 Heavy Bolter, 3 Missile Launchers.)

 

 

 

Total so far: 1658pts

 

The only models of the above not built are the swiftclaws and Wolf priest in the bike.

 

Let me know what you'd add or adjust. Again thanks for your thoughts and comments in advance....

 

~BtW

Ok heres a generic take on your list for you to consider, including all the elements you spoke of with less upgrades since I find it easier to work from bottom up. From there go where you like with it:

 

HQ

bran redmaw- 210

wolf priest runic, wolfkin, bike- 170

wolf priest runic, hunter- 130

rune priest runic- 120 (MoR not necessary although good)

 

ELITE

dreadnought, asscan sb/dccw- 105 (hf is good but from past experience often unused due to range vs stormbolter)

3 wolf guard, 2 x wg- tda axe/sb, 1 x cbflamer or cbmelta- 89

 

TROOPS (these probably want upgrades most, although since each unit has a beefy character its not mandatory)

10 grey hunters, 2 pg, std- 170

10 grey hunters, 2 pg, std- 170

5 grey hunters, flamer or mg, razorback- lc/tlpg- 155

5 grey hunters, flamer or mg, razorback- lc/tlpg- 155

 

FA

5 sc bikers, pg, hbab- 145 (These IMO should be a little bigger say 7-8 + AB)

12 fenrisian wolves- 96 (These needed to be bigger too IMO due to poor saves and paying 15 for wolfkin)

 

HS

5 long fangs, 4 mls- 115

dakka pred, autocannon, sponson hbs- 85

dakka pred, autocannon, sponson hbs- 85

 

TOTAL- 2000

 

Anyway that gives you 5 seperate shooting elements on the table plus 2x5 GHs and the bikes plus dread = 9 starting units. This should weather fire alot better and provide decent threats until your outflankers arrive.

Ok, a few things...

 

First, we can no longer stack our psychic defenses (per new FAQ), so there's no point for the Rune Priest to have a talisman. Also, Master of Runes is a bit "meh" given that 5 out of 7 of our powers are psa and can only use one per turn. Might be more worth it with one of the new psycher trees, but imo even then not worth the 50pts.

 

Remember you can have 6 Long Fangs.

 

Giving a meltagun to a Blood Claw, even with a Wolf Priest granting rerolls, is still a bit inefficient for the cost. Flamer for BCs all the way.

 

I'd probably remove the plasma pistol from the GH pack without the Priest. A WP is about the only way to have a pistol be cost-effective.

 

There should be no reason why a Long Fang pack would ever be in melee, especially now that they can move and shoot, so the WG's wolfclaw is unnecessary.

 

 

@Brom - the impression I had initially was the razorback would have some armoured company, but if its a solo tank, I agree.

@Brom - the impression I had initially was the razorback would have some armoured company, but if its a solo tank, I agree.

I figured that was the case brother and good call on LFs at 6 models, I always forget that.

 

Im lurking here because bran redmaw and wolf priests both really intrigue me and I quite like this list because of these elements. Im working on a suitable redmaw model now using TWC bits..ill post it somewhere in B&C if it comes out decently.

Ok, a few things...

 

First, we can no longer stack our psychic defenses (per new FAQ), so there's no point for the Rune Priest to have a talisman. Also, Master of Runes is a bit "meh" given that 5 out of 7 of our powers are psa and can only use one per turn. Might be more worth it with one of the new psycher trees, but imo even then not worth the 50pts.

 

Remember you can have 6 Long Fangs.

 

Giving a meltagun to a Blood Claw, even with a Wolf Priest granting rerolls, is still a bit inefficient for the cost. Flamer for BCs all the way.

 

I'd probably remove the plasma pistol from the GH pack without the Priest. A WP is about the only way to have a pistol be cost-effective.

 

There should be no reason why a Long Fang pack would ever be in melee, especially now that they can move and shoot, so the WG's wolfclaw is unnecessary.

 

 

@Brom - the impression I had initially was the razorback would have some armoured company, but if its a solo tank, I agree.

 

 

The plasma pistol I think was a leftover from when I originally had the RP on a bike and both WP leading the GH packs (trying to recall exactly why I switched that..oh yeah..so the Swiftclaws got the re-rolls)) I musta mixed the WTT and WTN up when I was working them out. I'll relook at it as I agree, with the new FAQ it became useless on our Rune priests. Thanks for the thoughts on the MoR, that is what I was looking for. Will swap out the melta for the flamer on the swiftclaws, only reasons I had even thought about it was because of 1) the anti tank and 2) the wolf Priest leading the Swiftclaws alowing for the possible re-rolls, but the flamer is a better call I think as well. The only thoughts I had with the WC on the WGPL for the LF's was as a just in case they have something drop in next to them that assaults them, but I completely understand the logic and points saved there. Hmm....6th Long Fang; 25pts for a ML or 20 pts for a second HB there?

 

As for the RB's I was looking at having a pair of them starting on the board with the switclaws and the dred, but concern was survivability and ability to hit while waiting on the reserves....

 

Originally I had a WGPL with the Swiftclaws and none with the LF's, should I rethink that since I need 3? or just use one for a 3rd GH group if I go that route?

 

@Brom Thanks. Some great ideas in that list. I'll definitely try to use some of them. I am really liking the idea and rules behind Bran Redmaw as well. I ended up using a Hordes warpwolf for Redmaw. He's a big boy, described as 12 feet tall. The model s just a bit bigger than that in scale but it's close. You can check it out in my WIP thread here in the SW subforums or via the link to my album in my sig below. I had at one time considered using a T-wolf for him as well. Still think it's a cool idea and can't wait to see yours. As for doing Brans model I used the axe from the T-Wolfs set and am quite happy with it.

 

Ok now back to the questions and thoughts....

 

So should I go with the Preds instead of the Razorbacks? I just wonder about the loss of Las shots? If I could somehow free up the 120pts to go with the TLLC sponson/AC setup, I'd feel a bit more comfortable. I had also considered going with the 2 RB's and a Whirlwind at one point but then I'm back to AV 11 again....I had even thought about a pair of LS Typhoons at one point in place of the RB's but heard that they are really fragile now, almost ridiculously so....

 

Thanks again! and please share any other thoughts, comments or suggestions..

 

~BtW

Thats a great looking army, I see now why you dont want to change some of the wargear. Redmaw model is nice find, I like the smaller version on pg 4 also. Try what you got and see what adjustments need to be made. Another idea that would keep the same equipment is to use the terminator wgpl's as a couple lone wolves. At 63 pts for the th/ss you are almost at the cost of tooled up LW anyway. Just a thought.

Back to your armour dilemma, id go dakka preds over RBs for av13 if your choosing one or the other. AC/LC preds are horribly over priced though, especially if you expect to see more infantry than before.

Thats a great looking army, I see now why you dont want to change some of the wargear. Redmaw model is nice find, I like the smaller version on pg 4 also. Try what you got and see what adjustments need to be made. Another idea that would keep the same equipment is to use the terminator wgpl's as a couple lone wolves. At 63 pts for the th/ss you are almost at the cost of tooled up LW anyway. Just a thought.

Back to your armour dilemma, id go dakka preds over RBs for av13 if your choosing one or the other. AC/LC preds are horribly over priced though, especially if you expect to see more infantry than before.

 

Thanks! Only issue I see with using them as Lone Wolves is that it will make it 4 Elites slots....Unless I only use one...hmmm...gonna have to think hard about that one. Here's where I am at at the moment...

 

HQ

Bran Redmaw - 210

Rune Priest - 145

(Runic Armour, Wolf tooth necklace, Chooser of the slain, meltabombs)

Wolf Priest - 145

( SoH, WTT, WTN, Meltabombs, Plasma pistol)

Wolf Priest - 170

(SoW, WTT, WTN, Meltabombs, Bike)

 

Elites

Wolf Guard Pack -149

(1 WGPL in TDA w/ FAxe and SS)

(1 WGPL in TDA w/ TH and SS)

(1 WGPL in PA w/ combi and Wolf Claw)

 

Dreadnought - 115

(AC and DCCW w/ heavy flamer)

 

Troops

Grey Hunter pack #1 - 190

(10 GH; 1 w/ flamer, 1 w/ plasma gun, 1 w/ plasma pistol, 1 w/ wolf standard, 1 w/ mark of the wulfen)

 

Grey Hunter pack #2 - 190

(10 GH; 1 w/ flamer, 1 w/ plasma gun, 1 w/ plasma pistol, 1 w/ wolf standard, 1 w/ mark of the wulfen)

 

Grey Hunter pack #3 - 175

(5 GH; 1/w flamer, 1 w/ wolf standard, 1 w/ mark of the wulfen, Razorback w/ TLLC or LC and TLPG)

 

Fast Attack

Fenrisian Wolves (x12) - 96

 

Swiftclaw Bikers - 135

(4 bikes - 1 w/ flamer, 1 Attack Bike w/ heavy bolter)

 

Heavy Support

Long fangs Pack - 210

(6 LF; 1 squad Leader, 1 w/ Heavy Bolter, 4 w/ Missile Launchers; Razorback w/ TLLC or LC and TLPG)

 

Predator Tank- 85

(AC and HB sponsons)

 

 

Total points: 1999

 

Gives me 2 RB's, a Pred, a Dred, 5x Swiftclaws led by a WP, 6x Long Fangs, 5x GH led by a WGPL on the board to start, leaving Bran w/ 10x Fen Wolves, a RP w/ a WGPL and 10x Grey Hunters, and a WP w/ WGPL and 10x Grey Hunters coming in from reserve BEL.

 

I'll also see what I come up with taking your suggestion of moving a TDA WG to a Lone Wolf and see what that list looks like.

 

Looking at the Lone Wolf Idea; if I drop the 3 Wolf Guard Pack Leaders and replaced them with:

 

Lone Wolf- 100

(TDA, Frost Axe and SS, and 2 Fen Wolves)

 

Which would leave 50 pts to add 2 additional Swiftclaw Bikers to their pack (bringing their number up to 7), which is very tempting. It will also allow the Grey Hunter Packs to perform sweeping advances which they couldn't do with the TDA WGPL's. It would also, if my math is correct bring it to exactly 2000 pts. I may end up doing both builds and using both.

 

Again, thanks for all the suggestions and comments and keep them coming :)

 

~BtW

I love lone wolves (now that theyre on my side) although frost axe is subpar. If already modelled id "counts as" TH/WC or simply remodel with a CF (or strap a hammer to his back or something), also a single fen wolf is sufficient giving him fleet and requiring a round of shooting to remove it (which will likely remove both wolves same as 1).

 

Yes definitely bump the bike squad up, with 5++ jink and preferred enemy these guys should do good for you and be scoring 1/6.

 

Regarding tda wgpl's, if going straight tda axe/sb they are only 3 pts more than a normal gh with axe and you get tda for only +3 pts. Its worth noting that tda pack leaders are great against lone character challenges due to 'moral support' rule giving you a reroll of his 2+/5++ meaning mephiston will be very sad. Anyway if possible I would keep 1-2 of these guys (bare as above) around and squeeze the other changes to the bike squad plus LW.

 

Edit- after a quick glance at your list id drop the flamer and plas pistol from each gh squad and take the free plasma guns instead. Then consider losing the motw guy from your 5 man squad.. this should buy you plenty of pts to play with (20 pts saved from each full gh squad to net more efficient shooting). If you have pts remaining simply add a cbflamer to each tda wgpl.

I love lone wolves (now that theyre on my side) although frost axe is subpar. If already modelled id "counts as" TH/WC or simply remodel with a CF (or strap a hammer to his back or something), also a single fen wolf is sufficient giving him fleet and requiring a round of shooting to remove it (which will likely remove both wolves same as 1).

 

Yes definitely bump the bike squad up, with 5++ jink and preferred enemy these guys should do good for you and be scoring 1/6.

 

Regarding tda wgpl's, if going straight tda axe/sb they are only 3 pts more than a normal gh with axe and you get tda for only +3 pts. Its worth noting that tda pack leaders are great against lone character challenges due to 'moral support' rule giving you a reroll of his 2+/5++ meaning mephiston will be very sad. Anyway if possible I would keep 1-2 of these guys (bare as above) around and squeeze the other changes to the bike squad plus LW.

 

Edit- after a quick glance at your list id drop the flamer and plas pistol from each gh squad and take the free plasma guns instead. Then consider losing the motw guy from your 5 man squad.. this should buy you plenty of pts to play with (20 pts saved from each full gh squad to net more efficient shooting). If you have pts remaining simply add a cbflamer to each tda wgpl.

 

OK cool... I do have 2 WGPL modeled so far: 1 w/ FA/SS and other modeled with TH/SS so swapping that one into the Lone wolf is not big deal. the only reason I included the wulfen in the smaller pack was for fluff since Redmaw's company supposedly contains more than the other other companies, but that one has not been modeled yet so no biggie there. As far as the flamers/plasma guns go...it's the flamers that are free and then the plasma gun becomes becomes free with the 10 man squad as the second wep. Otherwise I am paying 10 pts for the first one....(unless there was a change via eratta/faq).

 

Again, Thanks!

 

~BtW

OK cool... I do have 2 WGPL modeled so far: 1 w/ FA/SS and other modeled with TH/SS so swapping that one into the Lone wolf is not big deal

This will work great for a th/ss lonewolf in tda. The other guy can just lose the shield and be perfect as a wgpl with axe/sb.

 

As for GH squads I think your confusing them with codex adherent chapters. SW get 1 special (flamer free, mg 5 pg 10) then a second special free in full 10 man squad. Thats why no one takes plas pistols at 15 pts when you can simply take 2 pgs at 10 pts total! Crazy I know.. Love me some GHs.

OK cool... I do have 2 WGPL modeled so far: 1 w/ FA/SS and other modeled with TH/SS so swapping that one into the Lone wolf is not big deal

This will work great for a th/ss lonewolf in tda. The other guy can just lose the shield and be perfect as a wgpl with axe/sb.

 

As for GH squads I think your confusing them with codex adherent chapters. SW get 1 special (flamer free, mg 5 pg 10) then a second special free in full 10 man squad. Thats why no one takes plas pistols at 15 pts when you can simply take 2 pgs at 10 pts total! Crazy I know.. Love me some GHs.

 

 

We're on the same page there, that's what I was trying to say about the flamer/plas.

 

Essentially it saves me 5 points per squad to do it they way you are saying, as the plas pistol costs 15pts, so dropping it nets me 15 then if I drop the flamer and take a PG it costs me ten, thus taking the Plas pistol is only costing me 5 pts in comparison. Plus if I have the flamer it allows me some OW hits just in case, and if I add a combi flamer to the WGPL then that gives me additonal hits to there as well. of course the pistol does have less range than the plas gun. but since they are coming in BEL, they should be fairly close to their target. (Another reason why I took the flamers is the likelyhood of them getting charged first after they come in) But I do see where you are coming from as well. I'd definitely have it your way if they were starting on the table as normal.

 

Gonna finish doing some work on a scratchbuilt Manticore for my sons IG/allies and then I'll work up another list. I'll post it then and see what your thoughts are.

 

Thanks again!

 

~BtW

Lemme back up a step since I may have been confusing. Flamer free pg 10 pp 15 =25 pts, vs 2 pg =10 pts. That's what I meant. Another option would be 2 flamers in the OBEL unit, both free, and double pg for 10 total on the normal outflanking unit since they won't be nearly as close as OBEL would allow.
Lemme back up a step since I may have been confusing. Flamer free pg 10 pp 15 =25 pts, vs 2 pg =10 pts. That's what I meant. Another option would be 2 flamers in the OBEL unit, both free, and double pg for 10 total on the normal outflanking unit since they won't be nearly as close as OBEL would allow.

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