Vindicator vs new meta

[teku]

Okay, so If been reading people dropping their vehicles and go blob / footslogging. So when I was making such a list also I start to struggle.

Then If read about the vindicator and whirlwind. Well the whirlwind is a "good" cause its cheaper but the missles are weaker!

A (our) vindicator can move 12 inch and fire 24 inch. So 36inch threat. This Means that we could easly destroy something right?

Lets break the meta with vindicators!

So 2 vindicators with siegeshield, stormraven in your list would make 510pts. Fill it up with the normal, Assault marines, libby, priest or other stuff and you will have something that shoot's and destroy your oppentent army very fast.

Am I thinking to postive or not?

[skrikspya]

My current 1850 force is an armoured company (transition worked very well from 5th to be fair after I tried it out against multiple opponents) and I include a vindicator. That + a single flamestorm baal + LRR with DC has done a great job vs blob armies.

 

So in my opinion, vindicator is very nice to clear out backfield.

[Sinful eyes]

Honestly, I don't think it is a very competitive option. I faced a few in the doubles tournament I went to, and they were either destroyed early or the deployment went so we could ignore them for a bit (going to ground whilst in area terrain gives +2 to your cover save now, which really helps against stuff like that). As BA we do have the advantage of being able to move 12 and fire, but all in all I doubt you will get more then 1 shot off before it gets slagged.

[Killax]

In my experience, they can be fantastic if the table allows it.

 

In short, you cannot count on them to be always as usefull as, for example, the Lasspred (whom always does its job well but is narrower now than a vindicators in it's possible tasks).

 

So in short, you should/could ask yourself, what is your list in need of.

Due to fast vechicles the Blood Angels Vindicator is absolutely better than the regular one, on the other side it is 30+ more expensive, which in short means you will have a lower body count...

 

The best use I've seen so far are in mechlists, where your rhino can protect it if you need be.

Having said that, I do think (sadly) the vanilla marines can make more use of them.

 

Assault marines get quite expensive fast, that with the priests and expensive vindi's will make you always outgunned vs a shooty marine army or vanille mech, a trend that is well known for it's effectiveness.

 

Last cents, 2 are a minimum, 3 make up for their extra point costs.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I've used a vindi in almost all my games so far, and truthfully, its not doing as awesome as I expected. Being a priority target, it often gets knocked out before having much of an effect. When it stays alive, scatter robs it of most of its power. Will probably not be using it for competitive lists.

[knife&fork]

Okay, so If been reading people dropping their vehicles and go blob / footslogging.

 

The vindicator kills vehicles better than it kills infantry in this ed.

[cypherthefallenangel]

Vindi's are still good even in competition. Always take @least take 2. 3 is best(or 6 in like 2.5k+ games), but 2 works. Nobody wants to be stairing up the barrel of 3 fast demolisher cannons. yes they are a priority target so your opponent will have to focus his attentions on killing them. While they're spending 2 maybe 3 turns trying to kill them with every big gun they can through at them. You can capture objectives, move into a position, close in for assault, kill there troops or what ever you want. Virtually unmolested.

They not that expensive @ 145pts ea. don't bother with upgrades because they won't last the whole game.

[Godhead]

Side armor 11 hurts it bad. The thought of the AP 2 str 10 large blast is attractive, but from playing against my stepsons BA (and swapping armies and playing it myself) It just doesn't seem to carry it's own weight. I find myself thinking now, that If I allied guard, then I could get the russ version which is far more durable.

[knife&fork]

Side armor 11 hurts it bad. The thought of the AP 2 str 10 large blast is attractive, but from playing against my stepsons BA (and swapping armies and playing it myself) It just doesn't seem to carry it's own weight. I find myself thinking now, that If I allied guard, then I could get the russ version which is far more durable.

 

If you are allying in guard just go with a artillery battery of your choice instead. Does everything the vindicator does for less points and without taking up your own HS slots.

[teku]

Side armor 11 hurts it bad. The thought of the AP 2 str 10 large blast is attractive, but from playing against my stepsons BA (and swapping armies and playing it myself) It just doesn't seem to carry it's own weight. I find myself thinking now, that If I allied guard, then I could get the russ version which is far more durable.

 

If you are allying in guard just go with a artillery battery of your choice instead. Does everything the vindicator does for less points and without taking up your own HS slots.

Leman Russ Demolisher is 165 pts if I'm correct. Vindicator BA is 145pts. Okay you get more AV 14 13 11. But it isn't fast?

[xGSTARx]

I'm not sure whats not to like about our Vindicators, strength 10 ap 2 with a 36 inch threat range. Whizzing around dropping pie plates is ace, great now for destroying vechicles with the new template rules. It's armour 13 at the front with 3 hull points so can take a bit of shooting befor its knocked out too. So even though it may not last the whole game it will force your opponent to think about his deployment especially if you park it in the middle of the board with first turn. Plus while its getting shot up nothing else is. I think they're ace.

[Remtek]

Leman Russ Demolisher is 165 pts if I'm correct. Vindicator BA is 145pts. Okay you get more AV 14 13 11. But it isn't fast?

 

Leman is 72" range and the differance between 13 and 14 AV is alot.

 

I'm not sure whats not to like about our Vindicators, strength 10 ap 2 with a 36 inch threat range. Whizzing around dropping pie plates is ace, great now for destroying vechicles with the new template rules. It's armour 13 at the front with 3 hull points so can take a bit of shooting befor its knocked out too. So even though it may not last the whole game it will force your opponent to think about his deployment especially if you park it in the middle of the board with first turn. Plus while its getting shot up nothing else is. I think they're ace.

 

They will loose to flying lists/flanking. Most balanced armies will be able to deal with them decently. It's a pretty big invesment if your playing 1750 points.

[knife&fork]

Leman Russ Demolisher is 165 pts if I'm correct. Vindicator BA is 145pts. Okay you get more AV 14 13 11. But it isn't fast?

 

Should have specified ordnance battery. These range from 75-140 pts and do the job of flinging high S large blast at your enemy just fine. Fast is only good because you mitigate the short range of the weapon. Being able stay out of enemy range and/or LoS is even better. Not to mention how useful ord barrage has become for removing certain models from squads.

[xGSTARx]

I don't think 145 pts is that big an investment at 1750. If it takes all the fire first turn then the rest of your army isn't getting shot and if it gets to fire it's gonna do some damage.

 

I took two to a doubles tournament last weekend one BA one SW and they more than made the points cost back over the course of the weekend.

[Morollan]

As they are such high priority targets has anyone considered reserving them? Being able to protect them from enemy fire for the first turn or two and then bring them on and be able to move and fire at full effect when the enemy is at closer range would seem to be good in certain situations although the drawback is of course that you can't shoot with them in the first turn. As I often seem to find myself facing armies that are hidden at deployment and or under night fighting conditions I don't think this is such a huge problem.

[Deschenus Maximus]

The more I think about it, the more I come to realise that the randomness of the scatter is what really kills it for me. Some of our other HS choices might not have as much damage potential, but they are far less unpredictible in their effectiveness.

[IK Viper]

As they are such high priority targets has anyone considered reserving them? Being able to protect them from enemy fire for the first turn or two and then bring them on and be able to move and fire at full effect when the enemy is at closer range would seem to be good in certain situations although the drawback is of course that you can't shoot with them in the first turn. As I often seem to find myself facing armies that are hidden at deployment and or under night fighting conditions I don't think this is such a huge problem.

Basicaly what I was screaming at my computer screen the whole time I read this thread... I don't run them but just think about it, A SR and a Vindi come in on turn 2 together... what do you shoot at? 2 very high priority targets that can both hurt you badly if ignored...

[Ushtarador]

You mean 1 high priority target and one vindi that can't shoot you until next turn? :/ Even worse, if it arrives in Turn4 it doesn't shoot at all if you're unlucky. I wouldn't do that.

[Deschenus Maximus]

You shoot at the vindi unless you have units with skyfire.

[Ushtarador]

Which just means that the vindi won't shoot for sure :X

[IK Viper]

Am I missing somthing? the Vindi can move on 12 from the board edge and fire its Dem. Cannon 24, anything 12 inches in from the other side of the board is at risk, why are ppl saying it cant fire until the next turn?

[Ushtarador]

Well, as a Blood Angel you most often are the one rushing forward while the enemy shoots you and stays back. Also you have to factor in terrain, you might not be able to just go in a straight line. 36'' from the table edge is not that far really, and if you deploy on the short table edges it's even worse.

I'd rather deploy it in cover or out of sight, draw fire and reliably have a target in my first turn.

[Killax]

Am I missing somthing? the Vindi can move on 12 from the board edge and fire its Dem. Cannon 24, anything 12 inches in from the other side of the board is at risk, why are ppl saying it cant fire until the next turn?

 

LoS still is needed.

 

As I've mentioned, this is the only reason it's not an easy auto include is simply not every table lets it be used to full advantage.

 

Others have suggested the Leman Russ an allied army gives you, but that cost comperison is inccorrect due to the fact you actually can't just add Leman's without the troops and hq of the allies.

 

In short, thake it if you wish, 2 is a minimum. It works better in Mech than heavy infantry it isn't really competative but my personal feel is that most armies arn't without allies bar Grey Knights, Necrons and IG. Where Grey Knights and IG are even stronger with allies.

 

Cheers,

[teku]

Leman Russ Demolisher is 165 pts if I'm correct. Vindicator BA is 145pts. Okay you get more AV 14 13 11. But it isn't fast?

 

Leman is 72" range and the differance between 13 and 14 AV is alot.

 

I'm not sure whats not to like about our Vindicators, strength 10 ap 2 with a 36 inch threat range. Whizzing around dropping pie plates is ace, great now for destroying vechicles with the new template rules. It's armour 13 at the front with 3 hull points so can take a bit of shooting befor its knocked out too. So even though it may not last the whole game it will force your opponent to think about his deployment especially if you park it in the middle of the board with first turn. Plus while its getting shot up nothing else is. I think they're ace.

 

They will loose to flying lists/flanking. Most balanced armies will be able to deal with them decently. It's a pretty big invesment if your playing 1750 points.

 

13 av 14 is indeed hard to crack. think these tanks are worth the points

 

Leman Russ Demolisher is 165 pts if I'm correct. Vindicator BA is 145pts. Okay you get more AV 14 13 11. But it isn't fast?

 

Should have specified ordnance battery. These range from 75-140 pts and do the job of flinging high S large blast at your enemy just fine. Fast is only good because you mitigate the short range of the weapon. Being able stay out of enemy range and/or LoS is even better. Not to mention how useful ord barrage has become for removing certain models from squads.

 

sadly of most tanks no gw models from. So a bit expensive FW! But indeed it would be great.

 

As they are such high priority targets has anyone considered reserving them? Being able to protect them from enemy fire for the first turn or two and then bring them on and be able to move and fire at full effect when the enemy is at closer range would seem to be good in certain situations although the drawback is of course that you can't shoot with them in the first turn. As I often seem to find myself facing armies that are hidden at deployment and or under night fighting conditions I don't think this is such a huge problem.

Basicaly what I was screaming at my computer screen the whole time I read this thread... I don't run them but just think about it, A SR and a Vindi come in on turn 2 together... what do you shoot at? 2 very high priority targets that can both hurt you badly if ignored...

 

Reserve Idea is a good one! Sadly if you roll really bad... it would be sad of your points!

 

 

The more I think about imperial guard allies I also like that... But wouldn't that be alot of points in 1750-1850?

[Morollan]

You mean 1 high priority target and one vindi that can't shoot you until next turn? :/ Even worse, if it arrives in Turn4 it doesn't shoot at all if you're unlucky. I wouldn't do that.

 

As has already been said, the Vindicator can fire on the turn it arrives from reserve and futhermore can move 12" before doing so, giving a 36" threat range from any point on your table edge. Also, there is only a slim chance of not arriving before turn 4 (1/3 x 1/3=) 1/9 or roughly 11%. In exchange you get 100% protection from first turn shooting (and 2nd turn if you're going 2nd).