Tru Scale Marines

[Jacinda]

I do think you are wrong about Guardsman being the base line and not Marines for scaling models.

If we are talking 28mm scale models then the base would be 28mm = 4' 8.5"

So a space marine should be 47.5mm (or just about 1 7/8 inches) tall. A guardsman model (assuming a 6 feet human standard) should be 35.7mm (1 3/8 inches) tall.

 

I don't have a ruler nor a model on hand to check, but those are what a true 28mm scale model should be.

[J!MM!L!C!OUS]

http://i568.photobucket.com/albums/ss124/Dust_king/spacemarinereference-1.jpg

 

Hang on one whiley second there trail hand. If I can borrow Tarvik's picture for a moment..

 

Assuming that the men chosen for the IG are of a strong archtypical soldier body frame, surely they match up to a lowly baseball player? In which case, they're the same height as a marine, just not as wide, which I believe is already represented in the models...

[Danny Cyanide]

That's a basketball player, not a baseball player. I don't remember having anyone in my platoon stand at 7'6" when I was in the military...

[J!MM!L!C!OUS]

Sorry, I meant basketball player, same point.

[Danny Cyanide]

So you think most Guardsmen should be 7'6"?

[Rider-75]

I'm thinking it might be rather implausible/impossible to recruit an entire regiment of 7'6" fighting men from a single world... Which is how IG army raiding works.

 

You'd be looking at needing several hundred thousand men out of several billion - some where in the region of 0.2%. Anyone know what % of our population is 7'6"?

[J!MM!L!C!OUS]

Well, I see your point, but upon closer inspection - The Catachan Jungle fighters come from a very feral kill or be killed sort of place, I would expect that only the strongest and largest humans survive. Of those, the cream will be pressed into the IG.

 

With Cadians, that's a hive world so it's a similar situation.

 

This is probably why you never hear about the glories of the Eskimo soldiers of the 113th regiment of Inuitville... ;)

 

*Earth by comparison is pretty chilled out, humans don't need to be mahusive. When we did need to be big and imposing to survive we were called Neanderthals :)

[Darklighter]

I do think you are wrong about Guardsman being the base line and not Marines for scaling models.

If we are talking 28mm scale models then the base would be 28mm = 4' 8.5"

So a space marine should be 47.5mm (or just about 1 7/8 inches) tall. A guardsman model (assuming a 6 feet human standard) should be 35.7mm (1 3/8 inches) tall.

 

I don't have a ruler nor a model on hand to check, but those are what a true 28mm scale model should be.

 

This I don't get as at 28mm scale (1:73.2) it's 4.17mm to the foot making the GW marine at 32mm (I just measured my own Marine) a lofty 7 foot 6 inch and that's with a slight squat. If you add just 2mm for that bended knee he'd be just over 8 feet tall. So I have no idea where you got your base line from or your numbers, but it has nothing at all to do with the real scale of these models. With the actual scale numbers a 5'9" tall man would be 25mm or 6'7" at 28mm.

 

 

Oh look I've just noticed my numbers match exactly to the scale images posted up in this thread I wounder why?

[Jacinda]

I do think you are wrong about Guardsman being the base line and not Marines for scaling models.

If we are talking 28mm scale models then the base would be 28mm = 4' 8.5"

So a space marine should be 47.5mm (or just about 1 7/8 inches) tall. A guardsman model (assuming a 6 feet human standard) should be 35.7mm (1 3/8 inches) tall.

 

I don't have a ruler nor a model on hand to check, but those are what a true 28mm scale model should be.

 

This I don't get as at 28mm scale (1:73.2) it's 4.17mm to the foot making the GW marine at 32mm (I just measured my own Marine) a lofty 7 foot 6 inch and that's with a slight squat. If you add just 2mm for that bended knee he'd be just over 8 feet tall. So I have no idea where you got your base line from or your numbers, but it has nothing at all to do with the real scale of these models. With the actual scale numbers a 5'9" tall man would be 25mm or 6'7" at 28mm.

 

 

Oh look I've just noticed my numbers match exactly to the scale images posted up in this thread I wounder why?

In model scale, the 28mm is the width of rail tracks. Actually term should be "gauge" since scale requires 2 numbers while gauge, the second number is 4' 8 1/2" which is the standard width of train rails. In any case, 28mm scale model means the with of train rails at that scale is 28mm apart.

 

Maybe this will help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_model

Scroll down to the model railroad scales to find how the single number "scales" are defined.

[J!MM!L!C!OUS]

Wrong hobby buddy :lol:

 

In seriousness, 28mm is supposed to be roughly the distance from the floor to the eyes.

[Subtle Discord]

I do think you are wrong about Guardsman being the base line and not Marines for scaling models.

If we are talking 28mm scale models then the base would be 28mm = 4' 8.5"

So a space marine should be 47.5mm (or just about 1 7/8 inches) tall. A guardsman model (assuming a 6 feet human standard) should be 35.7mm (1 3/8 inches) tall.

 

I don't have a ruler nor a model on hand to check, but those are what a true 28mm scale model should be.

 

This I don't get as at 28mm scale (1:73.2) it's 4.17mm to the foot making the GW marine at 32mm (I just measured my own Marine) a lofty 7 foot 6 inch and that's with a slight squat. If you add just 2mm for that bended knee he'd be just over 8 feet tall. So I have no idea where you got your base line from or your numbers, but it has nothing at all to do with the real scale of these models. With the actual scale numbers a 5'9" tall man would be 25mm or 6'7" at 28mm.

 

 

Oh look I've just noticed my numbers match exactly to the scale images posted up in this thread I wounder why?

In model scale, the 28mm is the width of rail tracks. Actually term should be "gauge" since scale requires 2 numbers while gauge, the second number is 4' 8 1/2" which is the standard width of train rails. In any case, 28mm scale model means the with of train rails at that scale is 28mm apart.

 

Maybe this will help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_model

Scroll down to the model railroad scales to find how the single number "scales" are defined.

 

Yup, I have to agree, wrong hobby. You can't take the 28mm width of scale railroad tracks and equate that to the 28mm of gaming miniatures. A 28mm wide track is for an H0 train, which is roughly 1:87 scale. 28mm Gaming miniatures have a roughly 1:64 scale. Both of these are given in the wiki article you provided. The term 'gauge' is generally used only in model railroading, and causes confusion because it makes figuring out the actual scale less than straight forward. Proper 'X:XX' scale numbers are going to give you exactly the information you need.

 

So yes, if 'Heroic scale' miniatures were in 'H0' 1:87 scale a Marine would/should be about 4.75cm tall. But step back and look/think about that measurement compared to an actual miniature; it's huge, so something must be off. At 1:64 scale the numbers will line up, with a Marine model being about 2.8cm tall. Give-or-take some, for things like pose and artistic license with the sculpt.

[Darklighter]

Wow, just wow! I didn't expect it to people using model train scale/gauge to work out what should be correct in 40K never mind for 28mm scale in general.

 

Now we have found out this bit of information I'd like to ask a couple of questions to the "True scale" community.

 

1, So now knowing that this is a mistaken view does it change how people see the scale of 40k?

 

2, Do all Heroic modelers operate under this assumption?

[Jacinda]

A 28mm wide track is for an H0 train, which is roughly 1:87 scale. 28mm Gaming miniatures have a roughly 1:64 scale. Both of these are given in the wiki article you provided.

Actually, 28mm is between O (1:30) than half-O (aka HO). Read the page again if you need to.

 

Scale is nothing but a ratio and it really dose not matter between what (rail tracks or whatever) as long as the ratio remains the same. 28mm scale means 28mm represents the width of a train track.

28mm:4' 8.5"

28mm:56.5"

28mm:1435mm

1:51

 

O scale is often fudged to 1:32 to fit better with imperial units and it is why O scale is sometimes call over scaled since the models are slightly larger than if they were true to scale. Half O (HO) is then 1:64 and that is a bit smaller than 28mm. Post WWII toy soldiers were produced in 20mm to be compatible with the HO scale trains that were popular at the time. The 1:64 scale you say makes sense is also the HO you seem to be refuting but it seems tou me you have correctly argued that a standard SM model would be 8' tall if the scale were 1:64, HO or 20mm scale.

 

For what it's worth, GW originally produced 25mm models but over time they became larger 28mm models. The new DV set have cultist that are the same size as most manufacturer's 30mm models. My point here is that GW's scale is every bit as fixed and adhered to as their canon. :tu:

[Rider-75]

My point here is that GW's scale is every bit as fixed and adhered to as their canon. :P

 

So if GW are happy playing silly buggers with their scales and making 25mm cultists sprout to 30mm, then there's no reason for us true/heroic/art scale modellers not to do likewise.... :P

[Yodhrin]

Wow, just wow! I didn't expect it to people using model train scale/gauge to work out what should be correct in 40K never mind for 28mm scale in general.

 

Now we have found out this bit of information I'd like to ask a couple of questions to the "True scale" community.

 

1, So now knowing that this is a mistaken view does it change how people see the scale of 40k?

 

2, Do all Heroic modelers operate under this assumption?

 

 

Hey, no, you're not getting away with that nonsense for even one teeny weeny second. Nobody here has established that everyone who does truescaling is operating under a "mistaken view", since this chap here is the first person I've ever seen use that point, ever. Truescaling is about making the Marine models correct when compared to normal human models, in that respect the actual scale being used is irrelevant, what matters is the size of a Guardsman, to whom the height of a Marine is compared. If the Guardsman is 28mm, the Marine is more. If the Guardsman is 30mm, the Marine is more. Wargaming miniatures take the scale from the distance between the base of the foot and the eyeline, not train gauge scales, so whatever that distance is on an "average" 6' tall human is the baseline, and from that you do a bit of maths to determine the height of a Marine.

 

Get a bit of blu-tac and a tape measure, stick the tac to your wall 8 feet of the ground, and look up at it. Imagine something around that height, with more than twice the bulk of a normal person. That is the difference which we are trying to represent which is simply not present in the GW models.

[J!MM!L!C!OUS]

I think there was a valid point made earlier about the stances of the two types of models:

 

Space marines tend to squat like they're 'logging off' which drops them a good few mm in height. IG tend to be modelled more upright. If the SM was stood straight then he would be taller than the IG.

 

The other excellent point made - IG folks, coming from death/hive worlds etc would have evolved to be bigger than your average current year Earthling. So makes sense that the IG are not supposed to represent 5'11".

[Rider-75]

Evolution.... Okay let's apply that.

 

Hiveworlds are very densely populated, overcrowded hellholes.

Do you really think it is going to be advantageous to be BIGGER in a Hiveworlds. Physically more powerful, yes. But taller? No.

 

Let's take a real life situation as a baseline comparison. Dundee, Scotland. Famous for Jute, Jam an Journalism....

 

The first two are actually relevant here.....

 

The mills in Dundee attracted a Hyde influx of workers over a good few generations. Close. Hard. Heavy industry.

Do you know what the lasting legacy of Dundee is? Shorter people. Seriously. The average height of a

Dundonian is less than the average height of your average Scotsman. Why? The people that thrived in the cramped conditions of the mills, and the people attracted towprk in them, were on average shorter.

 

I suspect that Hiveworlds in 40k are similar - the hideous cramped conditions would favour smaller, stockier people. Not taller people.

 

But heho, I'm a scientist, what do I know about science.....

[Darklighter]

@Jacinda

 

Ok I have a few problems with some things that are being told as fact here. As my research can not confirm these things only deny them.

 

O gauge is 1:48 (1:43.5(UK) 1:45 (EU)) not 1:30 and HO is 1:87 as described here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_wargaming and here http://www.madcattoys.com/page/MCT/scaleviewer not really what we are talking about, but is worth pointing out.As even is something as simple as a model railway (scaled off real life) they can't agree on a scale in the same gauge.

 

I can also find a reference to Track scales and S gauge is 1:64 (closet one to our hobby 40k) that makes the track width 22mm and will also make 28mm = 5'9" not the 4' 9" you quoted. Have a look for your self http://www.rrtrack.com/html/track_libs.html It also doesn't list any track widths of 28mm?

 

I may have used the the ratio for 25mm scale models in my example rather than 28mm by mistake after looking at this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_figure_(gaming) but that's hardly the same kind of mistake as the list I've posted above.

 

So with all this information how would a marine need to be almost 50mm tall? Nothing you've worked out makes a model for a 28mm scale war game?

 

I'm sorry if I've overlooked something.

 

@Yodhrin

 

I've looked at your opening statement to your WiP thread..... Interesting I must say. If you look at my post I ask if others use the same assumption. So as you don't it really wasn't aimed at you and defiantly wasn't meant to cause offence just merely ask some questions to gain further clarity. I see much more reason in your approach of making 28mm a base of 6' to work out heights than I do using train gauges. Also your reasoning is what I had thought true for modellers "true scaling" I was just thrown a curve ball by the notion of train gauges and thought I would ask.

 

@Rider-75

 

Populations across the world have been getting taller every generation due to better nutrition and healthcare (and arguable evolution) how would this not have gotten better before the fall of the Emperor? I'm not saying I subscribe to the theory of man kind being taller in general in 40k just that it's a plausible theory. I know over history and in localised areas these things fluctuate, but over all man in the last 60 years has gotten taller on average with only just showing signs of plateauing recently.

 

As for the new cultist being on the lofty side they are chaos tainted after all.

[Jacinda]

Oh the joys of post-industrial scale model guessing games. :lol:

I would love to have a straight, real and constant scale to go by. 1/72 instead of 15mm, for example. Too many non-standard references involved with gauges.

[Bungicats]

To me the challenge of changing any scale model to make it bigger or smaller, wider or skinnier is part of a hobby wether its a 15mm flames of war tank to a "lifesize" whatever. I merely like my models to look different than every other "crack open the box put-it-together" type. Just my $0.75 ($0.02 with inflation :lol:

[J!MM!L!C!OUS]

To me the challenge of changing any scale model to make it bigger or smaller, wider or skinnier is part of a hobby wether its a 15mm flames of war tank to a "lifesize" whatever. I merely like my models to look different than every other "crack open the box put-it-together" type. Just my $0.75 ($0.02 with inflation ^_^

 

I know what you mean dude, I'm like that with conversions - other than with rank and file troops I'm always kit bashing and converting ^_^

[Darklighter]

Oh the joys of post-industrial scale model guessing games. :)

I would love to have a straight, real and constant scale to go by. 1/72 instead of 15mm, for example. Too many non-standard references involved with gauges.

 

After looking my self I can feel your pain.

 

 

To me the challenge of changing any scale model to make it bigger or smaller, wider or skinnier is part of a hobby wether its a 15mm flames of war tank to a "lifesize" whatever. I merely like my models to look different than every other "crack open the box put-it-together" type. Just my $0.75 ($0.02 with inflation :lol:

 

I'm a big fan of making my models individuals not just rank and file. But like I've stated before altering hight adjusts a models perspective on the table.

 

Subtle Discord mentioned a kneeling marine as being able claim being stood up when shooting (or was it a hero rock?). I'd claim (and lots of others I've played) that if a model can't physically see it can't shoot or be shot at. As any other way can cause animosity and ill feelings (and has done in the past). Conversely if it's obviously been done for an advantage I'd call them on it before the game and either refuse to play them or take it up as a challenge. But once you've accepted to play an army you should take it on for all it's traits and arguing it mid game isn't really sportsmanly. being free and breezy with the rules (and models) is fine when you are gaming with close friends, but at a club or pick up game it's really not practical or fair.

 

I have one more question to put out there. If not all "true scaled" models are made to fit one agreed upon scale then even if you had Marine vs Marine with one or both armies having guard allies they could still be a very different scale to each other next to the guard platoon and each other. Does this effect your judgment when considering a scale for your projects?

[Yodhrin]

I have one more question to put out there. If not all "true scaled" models are made to fit one agreed upon scale then even if you had Marine vs Marine with one or both armies having guard allies they could still be a very different scale to each other next to the guard platoon and each other. Does this effect your judgment when considering a scale for your projects?

 

Regarding your earlier comment; righto, no problems, I hope I didn't come off as too confrontational.

 

Now, for this quote, there are three common methods of truescaling/artscaling; Terminator legs(typically with a 0.5-1mm spacer glued to the bottom of the feet), "biggerizing" a normal Marine model(usually a combination of altering the pose and adding spacers to the shin, thigh, and torso), and Chaos Warrior legs. The Terminators are the most common due to a combination of simplicity of the method by comparison, that method being the one used by the chaps who popularised the concept, and the availability of an excellent step-by-step tutorial from Lamenter.

 

As to the difference between the methods, they're no larger than the difference between GW and FW Guardsmen models, I chose to follow the Terminator method largely because of the substantial base of work to reference, and because I prefer the bulkier look.

[Darklighter]

So the working out of a scale is a moot point then if your working from a tutorial. Do you happen to know what the originator of your chosen methods scaling was?

[Calgar 2.0]

Well, I see your point, but upon closer inspection - The Catachan Jungle fighters come from a very feral kill or be killed sort of place, I would expect that only the strongest and largest humans survive. Of those, the cream will be pressed into the IG.

 

With Cadians, that's a hive world so it's a similar situation.

 

This is probably why you never hear about the glories of the Eskimo soldiers of the 113th regiment of Inuitville... :unsure:

 

*Earth by comparison is pretty chilled out, humans don't need to be mahusive. When we did need to be big and imposing to survive we were called Neanderthals :lol:

 

Your arguement has been disproven twice now, so I suggest you stop throwing this about.