Tru Scale Marines

[J!MM!L!C!OUS]

Well, I see your point, but upon closer inspection - The Catachan Jungle fighters come from a very feral kill or be killed sort of place, I would expect that only the strongest and largest humans survive. Of those, the cream will be pressed into the IG.

 

With Cadians, that's a hive world so it's a similar situation.

 

This is probably why you never hear about the glories of the Eskimo soldiers of the 113th regiment of Inuitville... :woot:

 

*Earth by comparison is pretty chilled out, humans don't need to be mahusive. When we did need to be big and imposing to survive we were called Neanderthals :geek:

 

Your arguement has been disproven twice now, so I suggest you stop throwing this about.

 

Wow that's a bit harsh - especially since you're wrong.

 

I initially threw the idea in that IG are taller than regular guys, akin to basketball players.

 

That was then fairly challenged, that not all recruits would be that height (based off earth demographics circa 2012).

 

Then my post, which you've said is me repeating myself, is actually a counter argument saying that these folks don't come from earth, they come from hostile environments of the future - hense they might have changed to be a bit bigger.

 

Unless I'm much mistaken, I havn't repeated myself. If you want to send me a message in PM we can discuss it further though as to avoid taking the discussion further off-topic?

[Rider-75]

The point of evolution is to evolve to best suit your environment.

Yes, there will be taller people - if it suits their environment.

 

Generally speaking we are getting slightly taller as a people on the whole - but our environment suits that. Much of our world is open, even our urban areas are open by comparison to the hives of the grimdark future.

 

Billions of people crammed into one hive where space is at an absolute premium is not going to evolve 7'6" humans. Not a chance. Not just because of space but because of survival. Tall people stand out and in the cutthroat darkness of the underhive standing out makes you dead.

 

Yes there are agriworlds and deathworlds. But the majority of the population on agriworlds still live in hives with the few mega-farm workers working in rural settlements to provide the crop to be serviced by the hives. The actual population on death worlds is pretty low by virtue of the fact that it's death to live there....

 

I think the majority of people in the 40k setting will be on the whole following the same population height profile as we do currently - all be it with a few more extremes.

 

I think your baseline Cadian/Mordian/etc will still fit the average profile of the current forces

[Darklighter]

This is all utter conjecture who knows what will happen to the human race in 38,000 years time. In the fluff we have diverged into several different species, Dwarves, Rattlings, Ogryn, Beastmen and so on. Even some of these are getting reclassified as mutants instead of abhumans and vice versa (according to the new BRB). Also some races like Ogryns have multiple off shoots within it genus. My point is I'm sure there is some official fluff that states the hight of said humans in 40k. I don't have the time at the moment to look for links or quotes, but I think that would be more productive than this back and forth as it can (without evidence) be argued until the cows come home.

[Yodhrin]

So the working out of a scale is a moot point then if your working from a tutorial. Do you happen to know what the originator of your chosen methods scaling was?

 

I don't, I just know that the end result fits with my chosen method of scaling, and that it looks appropriately large when you put it next to a baseline-human mini. Perhaps you can find out by digging through his blog, it's worth the read regardless, but I can't remember if he states explicitly what method, if any other than the MK1 Eyeball, he used.

[Darklighter]

I read his tutorial and few other of his projects (I would have looked at more, but his page took an age to load on my PC). He calls his stuff Artscale in title then refers to things as actual scale, but never makes mention of how he's come to that conclusion or what "stick" he uses to gauge things by. I guess there as much confusion amongst "True scalers" as there is with us none believers.

[Subtle Discord]

Oh, I feel 'true scaling' has less to do with proper scale and/or proportions, and more to do with making the model suitably imposing and larger than a Guard model. The term is very subjective. An image was painted of the Marine being 7+ feet tall, and some people feel it is not conveyed enough in the models when they are side-by-side. They choose to take artistic license and correct the perceived problem.

 

I stand by my assertion that most 'true scaling' mucks too much with proportion. It makes me cringe sometimes, at least. Most times the legs are too long, and the torso and/or arms too short. It's a subtle change that many have no problem with, or don't even see, but I prefer the proportions of a stock Marine. I do wish the Marine kits were more... modular (?) will ball joints at the ankles, knees, hips, waist, shoulders, elbows, wrists, and neck, so I could more easily have my lads stand up straight and show off their height. :huh: Now that would be an 'advanced' Marine kit, but think of all the poses!

[Yodhrin]

You prefer the stock "bobble-headed gorilla with polio" proportions? Takes all sorts I 'spose ;)

[Seahawk]

I dunno, my models seem to be in scale. The top of the commissar's head comes to the chin of the sergeant.

 

Remember, much of people's perception of scale is all off because most marine poses are crouched low and most IG poses are standing tall

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/veritas117/IMG_0179_zpsfa1cb7ab.jpg

 

 

Hobby-scale marines are great for display models, but it's bad for gaming models due to the size changes. That being said, it's everyone's hobby so they may do as they please with the money they spend.

[Rider-75]

Yes, but that model size difference equates to only a few inches, not a foot and a half. And in your example both models are fully upright.

[Darklighter]

ONLY A FEW INCHES!!!! Ok now for the not so dramatic. I have some real life friends one is 6'2" her boyfriend is 6'4" and her brother is 6'6" I'm no short arse at 6' dead and they all tower over me in a room. When walking down the street and catching the groups reflection in a window or looking at Photographs it looks like a much bigger difference than just a few inches.

 

Also the only official reference to the hight of a marine I can find (in the books I own) is;

 

1, in the second edition angels of death book that only states that they tower over a normal man (read above that only needs to be a few inches to be perceived as such).

 

2, in the new BA codex that says "When the Aspirants emerge from their sarcophagi they are forever changed. They will be tall, strong and superhumanly powerful" - page 11 last paragraph. And this is tall compared to malnourished irradiated desert tribesman.

 

I can only find 3rd party references to a marine being over 7 foot tall and most of them are from BL books (and counting them as official fluff or cannon is a totally different subject).

 

In the picture Seahawk linked I'm more than sure from the perspective of the Guardsman that Marine is an imposing tower of awesomeness and wouldn't feel that it's only a few inches in hight difference as width of frame also adds to the feel of imposingness a person gives off.

[J!MM!L!C!OUS]

Seconded.

[Seahawk]

A full head's height is on average about 9", and that's about the difference here (possibly more/less). A marine being 7', that'd make the commissar about 6'3"? Give or take? That's not unusual for some groups of people.

 

Yes, both models are fully upright, that's the point. That is how one makes size comparisons. If one uses a standing man and a crouching marine, of course the marine will look too short! It's a false comparison, and that's what has spawned Hobby-scale marines. I believe that the sergeant is one of the best-proportioned marine models to date, so let's just consider the commissar to be above-average in height. :)

 

A foot and a half difference would make the standard human only 5'6". That's pretty short, no? At 5'8", I'm considered below-average in height.

[Subtle Discord]

Exactly the point I made in my long winded post. Most Marine models are in a wide-leg crouching pose, along with usually leaning forward or backward. All of that takes away height. Most Guard models are in a close-legged, little or no crouch, and usually no lean. If you compare the two you get a false comparison. You must remove as many variables as possible to isolate the factor you're trying to compare. In this case the pose needs to be very similar to get a proper height comparison. Have that Commissar take is huge hat off, and you can see that the Marine is in fact about a head taller. (Note: about - I'm positive Marines and 'normal' Humans in the GW universe come in many sizes)

 

You prefer the stock "bobble-headed gorilla with polio" proportions? Takes all sorts I 'spose ;)

Yes, I do. As long as the proportion is reasonably good a Marine looks just fine to me. 28mm 'Hero' scale has lots of proportion issues, most notably the size of the hands, feet, and heads. They are all too large, but when done right on a model it can work. Put them on extra long, bottom heavy legs, with stumpy arms and Torsos, and that somehow makes it better? ;)

 

Now, I'm not a fan of the stock pose that the vast majority of the GW Marines have. But I already obsess and take too much time making may army unique; I'd lose my mind if I 'needed' to adjust most of the Marines across the entire force. Just take a look at some of the newer FW Marine models (same proportions) with their standing tall, striding forward poses. They look bad-ass, are suitably imposing and tall beside a Guard, and there's no real change except the pose.

[Yodhrin]

Whatever; it is my considered opinion that the idea that "standing up" the Marines fixes things is complete tosh, but then I'm only speaking from personal experimentation so what do I know? :P But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter; I like doing it, anyone who would refuse to play against me because of it can do so at the low-low price of all my respect for them, and everyone's life goes on.

 

Agree to disagree it is.

[Seahawk]

There's no need to take such a harsh attitude with differing opinions.

[Darklighter]

Whatever; it is my considered opinion that the idea that "standing up" the Marines fixes things is complete tosh, but then I'm only speaking from personal experimentation so what do I know? :) But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter; I like doing it, anyone who would refuse to play against me because of it can do so at the low-low price of all my respect for them, and everyone's life goes on.

 

Agree to disagree it is.

 

I'm sorry you feel so disgruntled, but it's not like anyone has just slapped you in the face and told you you're wrong. A lot of thought and effort has been put into the reasoning against "True scaling" and I personally haven't seen the same kind of rationality or cohesive thought trying to prove the for argument.

 

Obviously things are going to get a little heated when people talk about a hobby they are passionate about so if you just want to leave it with Agree to disagree I'll be fine with that. I just hope that there is no hard feelings Yodhrin.

[Necris]

Ok I'd like to add something

 

I personally love the idea of truescale marines

 

GW HQ have a true scale marine painted on a wall this is the one in which they used to create the Space Marine miniature for Inquisitor which is in fact an accurately scaled miniature.

 

I am an above average height person at 6'6" tall and I am broad shouldered and bulky.

 

Against this painted image I only come to the top of the aquilla on the marines chest plate and i have to look up into the marines face, I'd imagine that humans over the next few thousand years will increase the average height to reach into the 6" range of people, as such they will still be considerably and noticeably shorter than an average marine

 

That and the fact that for the last 25 years we've been told that marines tower over the average man, that they are the imposing killing machines of the Imperium that when on a battlefield that are the might figureheads leading the lesser men to victory

 

So in my honest opinion the marines should have been made truescale to start off with!

[Darklighter]

Almost all of the points you've raised have been addressed already in this thread. However I'd like to look into the validity of your claim about the Marine picture at GW HQ, I'm just not sure who to ask to get an honest answer. Is there an article or Issue of white dwarf about the said inquisitor project?

[Rider-75]

There's a picture in the WD archive in the "evolution of the space marine" interview with Jes Goodwin.

 

The pic has him sitting under the wall drawing of a full size marine. The same drawing is on the wall in GWHQ - and it's mahoosive!!

[Necris]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/Avicenna/8ft_marine.jpg

 

It's a direct copy of this picture when Jes designed the Inquisitor scale space marine he didn't work from a 28mm up he drew the full size marine that you can see in the picture and then scaled it down to 54mm scale

 

and as you can see at 6'6" I only come to the skull on the chest plate

 

also just found this which is based on Shaq O'Neil and a spectator

 

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/16701480/images/1319316793795.jpg

[Darklighter]

Ok so 8 feet is the hight of a marine that would make it 38mm tall in 1:64 (28mm = 4.75mm per foot). I've also taken a tape measure to a few of my models. The standard pose for a marine (squat and legs apart) is around 32-33mm, but the models I have that are more upright are 36-37mm making them only about 1mm off what they should be. If I get time I'll take some pictures tomorrow and post them up to show you all.

[Rider-75]

And have you done the same to say, a plastic Chadian?

[Darklighter]

Honestly no, but that's because I don't have a Guard army.... I might however have one in my bits box for a terrain project I'm in the middel of. Only problem is I might not have a full model.

[Necris]

I have a some catchans handy they come in at 30-33/34mm

 

and my truescales rock in at 39-42mm

[Darklighter]

I'm guessing your 39mm tall models are the crouched standard pose and the tallest is an upright pose?

 

I've been thinking on measuring a guardsman and I've decided against it as it's got nothing to do with the hight a marine should be in this setting/scale. As all that would prove is that you need to make the guardsmen shorter not the marines bigger. And as this is a thread about "true scaling" marines it's irrelevant to the discussion.

 

If people (I've not seen your work so this isn't directed at you personally and is meant in general) where truly bothered about the true size a marine should be you'd make models just that hair taller with smaller, hands, feet and heads making sure that limbs maintained a true proportional balance. All this has already been said by much more eloquent people than me in this thread already though.