Thoughts on defensive upgrades

[Brom MKIV]

Greetings brothers! Lately I have been debating the necessity of runic/artificer armour, and indeed other protection on characters in 6th edition. I would like to start a discussion regarding the usefullness of such upgrades including TDA and even storm shields for our characters when taking look out sir into consideration. Obviously in a points vacuum more equipment is better, but is it necessary?

 

For example, here is a character loadout that might be seen at 1750+ pts:

-wolf lord, twm, runic, ss, pf- 220

-rune priest, runic- 120

-wolf priest, hunter, runic- 130

Total- 470 pts

 

Now lets consider each characters cost without defensive upgrades:

-wolf lord, twm, pf- 170

-rune priest- 100

-wolf priest, hunter- 110

Total- 380 pts

 

Obviously less survivable at first glance. Or are they? (wp excepted). With LoS acting as a 2++ save IF wounds are allocated to them, plus the core mechanics of the game lending themselves more and more to shooting I have begun to wonder just how necessary defensive upgrades are. Yes our characters are awesome when fully tooled and the envy of pretty much every other chapter. On the other hand 90 pts is rather significant in the scheme of things, almost a whole vindicator or another scoring unit or a fully tooled lone wolf, you get the point.

 

That being said, the monkey wrench in the whole philosophy is obviously challenges. However I submit to you are rune priests and wolf priests really ideal against many of the characters we are likely to encounter? Are we willing to risk them if an alternative exists? (champion or refusing) What are the odds of their unit encountering said opposing characters and in their absence surviving against other common units to provide ablative wounds?

 

Caveat- im not saying I intend to run bare naked characters from here on out but I may decide to test this theory in my next series of games just to see the results. Also if the purpose of a character is challenge then so be it, but do all characters (and even units) need the defensive gear we are seeing abound lately as opposed to more offensive options?

 

With that said I open the floor for discussion..

[MeatGrinder]

Be aware, Rune Priests are only I4, meaning we won't instagib most character that we'd encounter. With most power weapons being either ap3 or ap2 with I1, runic armour becomes a lot more attractive, allowing you a great advantage in challenges. You'd either get your saves, or be able to strike first in combat.

As for shooting, my characters are not going to be eating shots in the first place.

 

I'm a huge fan of storm sheilds though, especially on my lone wolves. With a big combat character, I'll almost always take one.

[captain fabian]

Well in my opinion 90 pts are nothing compared to what you get. I mean the benefits of additional protection multiply your character's effectiveness. Do they all need it? NO. But on the other hand do you NEED all 3 of them? If yes your RP could drop the armor. I'd drop it on the WP too. These 2 guys are there to support your squad. The WGPL in TDA are thereto smash whatever comes their way Now if you don't take a Lord, which I never do, you could tool them up because they are now going to be a little bit of everything. In my 1750 ptl list I run a Hunter WP and a runic armor RP. No Lord though.

[Brom MKIV]

Be aware, Rune Priests are only I4, meaning we won't instagib most character that we'd encounter. With most power weapons being either ap3 or ap2 with I1, runic armour becomes a lot more attractive, allowing you a great advantage in challenges. You'd either get your saves, or be able to strike first in combat.

As for shooting, my characters are not going to be eating shots in the first place.

 

I'm a huge fan of storm sheilds though, especially on my lone wolves. With a big combat character, I'll almost always take one.

This was kinda what I wanted to draw attention to, i.e. that most weapon loadouts have now evolved to take into account armour 2+, so to me runic is not the no brainer it was initially since the meta has adapted to counter it. I agree my characters, for the most part, wont be taking shots either which is another reason to consider whether defensive expenditures are that worthwhile.

 

I agree on SS for the lone wolves, and in fact for combat characters that are fit to engage in challenges.

 

captain fabian- I think we are on the same page more or less.

 

To elaborate a little more with another example, lets consider the newest toy for SW, bran redmaw. Once transformed redmaw is t6 w3 FNP. Thats it.

We all know t6 means very little in 40k when it comes to protection, FNP without armour often similar yet redmaw is plenty survivable within a unit. Hes a beast in CQC and strikes first against most non character units which definitely helps. However his survivability against anything barring lysander, mephiston and like characters actually comes from LoS 2+ rather than any armour or invuln saves. Looking at characters from the context of redmaw reveals that characters leading units really dont need any protective upgrades, UNLESS they are designed to fight challenges.

 

Anyway I guess my reason for this thread was simply to spark some discussion on how necessary some upgrades are, upgrades that most people, myself included, have been taking simply because we can. Conclussion: we should evaluate the roll of each character within the army and the unit they intend to join before kitting them out for corner-case rolls they will rarely if ever fill.

[Bearingtheword]

So, what I gather from what you are saying is that it's not a necessity if you include WGPL's who are geared to be the ones to take the challenges for the unit, thus allowing your IC's to not need the lower saves they used to be required to have. So following that train of thought would you then say that TDA and/or Storm Shields are now going to pretty much required for your WGPL's? And what is, in your thinking, the better and/or more cost effective way to go with them? No SS w/ TDA? SS with PA?

 

Some quick examples and cost comparisons (that are by no means suggestions) from just a quick glance.....

 

WGPL (PA, SS, WC, MB) - 63 pts ; gives you 3+ and 3+ inv saves

WGPL (TDA, SS, Frost wep) -58 pts ; gives you 2+ and 3+ inv saves

WGPL (TDA, Frost wep, combi) - 48 pts ; gives you 2+ and 5+ inv saves

WGPL (PA, SS, Power Wep, MB)- 58 pts ; gives you 3+ and 3+in saves

WGPL (TDA, Power wep, SS)- 48 pts ; gives you 2+ and 3+inv saves

Absolute bare bones:

WGPL (TDA, Power wep, SB)- 33pts ; gives 2+ and 5+ inv saves

 

My personal lean is towards the TDA, SS, Frost Wep, @ 58 pts, for the absorbtion of shots and hits, and the ap2 in the challenges, although I have been struggling to fit these into my lists....

 

Any how just a bunch of tired rambling that makes little sense I'm sure, lol....

 

~BtW

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

Interesting topic, and one close to my heart. I have often believed that, while our army is centred around our mighty heroes (and awesome a tooled out lord is too), the most effective Space Wolf lists are those that minimise upgrades as much as possible, which I guess applies to many codices to a point.

 

I am currently running cheap WGPL (e.g. PA/Combi) alongside an equally frugal IC (e.g. WP - SoH/MBs). This has served me very well - you can sacrifice the WGPL if necessary or use your cheap IC if it seems a good risk in each circumstance. There is nothing quite like watching an uber character kill your WGPL 7 times over while the rest of his unit is slaughtered by a prefered enemy buffed Grey Hunter Pack, particularly if the prefered enemy plasma shots of the WGPL killed the opposition 'cheap champion' in the previous shooting phase :lol: .

 

I guess what I'm saying is that 'look out sir' and a WGPL gives you the option of leaving out the defensive upgrades on many ICs. For the most part, this has been more effective for me than tooling out on SS, RA and suchlike. I will be interested to hear how your play-testing of this theory goes, but I suspect that you will find it is equally as effective to leave the upgrades off these days.

 

Having said that, I respect that a runic armour IC combined with a Grey Hunter's wolf standard is still one of the best dueling loadouts these days - re-roll my 2+ armour save... Yes please! Unless they have a powerfist :). Horses for courses I guess, but cheap characters are, for the most part, more difficult to get rid of in a unit than they once were I reckon.

 

Nos.