bjoluemblem Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 This came up in a game today-how does Deny the Witch work with Null Zone? The TO ruled that for each unit that can be affected by the power, i.e. anything with an invulnerable save, can Deny the Witch if it enters the 24" bubble. If the DtW is passed, that unit in particular is exempt from being affected by NZ. Essentially, this: -Libby casts Null Zone, passes LD test -Grey Knight paladins pass DtW on a 6, thus are exempt -Grey Knight terminators fail DtW on a 5, thus are affected Do any of you guys have experience with this, or a better way to make this work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassWave Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Because the power is not cast on a target unit, one would not be able to deny the witch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zedrenael Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Another thing is something that affects multiple units only one DtW roll can be made. For example a Blood Angels Blood Lance can only be DtW by the first target hit and all the rest take it to the face as normal if failed. I do not have access to the FAQ at this time but I am sure it is in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 That TO is wrong... Only if a unit is targeted can it deny the witch, some people just like to put marines down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 I dont see that in the FAQ, and it would make sense that each unit affected gets its own DtW save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 No need for a FAQ, BRB p68 if a psychic power is targeted on a enemy unit, SM Codex P57 All enemy units within 24 inches must re-roll successful invulnerable saves, no targeting no DTW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Another thing is something that affects multiple units only one DtW roll can be made. For example a Blood Angels Blood Lance can only be DtW by the first target hit and all the rest take it to the face as normal if failed. I do not have access to the FAQ at this time but I am sure it is in there. If the first denies it that those behind that 1st unit dont need to fear that lance as it has been stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knives Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Null Zone is a basic Psychs attack in one of the charts... how it works and such is also described. It isn't witchfire... maybe Mal Diction... the rule book should cover how its affected... Dtw shouldn't be rolled at all because it doesn't pick out a single unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zedrenael Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 I do not disagree with most about DtW against Null Zone but in the case of something that can target multiple people (Blood Lance, Jaws, etc.) only the first unit can attempt a DtW roll and if they fail then everybody is affected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyroknight Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Let us look at the relevant information. Deny the witch: BGB pg 68 states that any unit targeted by a power may attempt a “deny the witch” roll. BGB Page 68 and 69 now makes it so all witchfire, malediction, and nova powers target units. Null zone: On C:SM page 57, Null zone states: “All enemy units within 24” of the Librarian…” Null zone has not been FAQed to fit into any of the 6th edition categories for psychic powers. Technically by RAW, null zone does not target an enemy unit and therefore does not allow a “Deny the Witch save”. By my own interpretation of RAI, I would rule it the same as the TO allowing any affected units to make a “deny the witch.” This comes down to the snapshooting debate all over again, either all you get a save against all psychic power or you don't get a save against any. The wording is easy to wiggle out of, but the intentions of the rules are clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Well, not really, because in the psyker rules, they do have a mention on powers that are in the codexes, and that you follow those rules instead. So yes, you get to deny some powers but not others, and that is the current intent or RAI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warprat Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Seems to me that Null Zone fits within the Malediction "type". It weakens enemies by inflicting penalizing special rules. If it did not fit within one of the "types", then it would use its own special rule. If so... Null Zone is a Malediction power that uses one charge, but only lasts through the player turn. Deny the Witch rolls can be made for each unit affected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Doesnt matter what it seems... it is not a malediction so no DTW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Are other malediction powers targeted on specific enemy units tho... Null zone could be classed as a blessing just as easily. This does sound similar to the foolishness of people trying to deny the witch on meph using sang sword to avoid a s10 hit tbh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warprat Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Are other malediction powers targeted on specific enemy units tho... Null zone could be classed as a blessing just as easily. This does sound similar to the foolishness of people trying to deny the witch on meph using sang sword to avoid a s10 hit tbh... Blessings only work on your own troops. Maledictions only work on enemy troops. Null Zone is a Malediction "type" power. Witchfire/Nova comes close, but is more like a shooting attack. Powers Without a Type: "If a psychic power does not have a type, the rules for using it will be clearly expressed within the entry. Just because Null Zone is not on some list of Malediction spells, does not mean it does not fit within a "type" of power (Blessing, Conjuration, Malediction, Witchfire.) If it fits within a "type" (classification,) then it uses that classification's rules. The powers page lists the types of powers in an open manner, so that players can easily classify their power into one of the "types". If it cannot fit into one of the "types" of powers, then it uses its own entry. Deny the Witch rolls can be made against Malediction type powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Right. Since Null Zone is not labelled as a Malediction though, you cannot take DtW against it. :) Just because something seems like it's something, that doesn't make it that thing. New powers are typed. Old powers are not. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warprat Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Right. Since Null Zone is not labelled as a Malediction though, you cannot take DtW against it. :D Just because something seems like it's something, that doesn't make it that thing. New powers are typed. Old powers are not. Simple as that. Some people seem to need lists... get on it GW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 It's quite simple. DtW can only be used against powers that target. Null Zone doesn't target. Therefore Null Zone doesn't allow DtW. It's really that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 It's quite simple. DtW can only be used against powers that target. Null Zone doesn't target. Therefore Null Zone doesn't allow DtW. It's really that simple. Yep. I came in here to say just this. <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marik Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 It's quite simple. DtW can only be used against powers that target. Null Zone doesn't target. Therefore Null Zone doesn't allow DtW. It's really that simple. This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassWave Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Null zone fails the (very weak) malediction argument since the power targets the librarian and blesses him with the null zone aura. Its amoot point however as I explained in my first post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Another thing is something that affects multiple units only one DtW roll can be made. For example a Blood Angels Blood Lance can only be DtW by the first target hit and all the rest take it to the face as normal if failed. I do not have access to the FAQ at this time but I am sure it is in there.Since when does Blood Lance target a unit? You designate a direction of a line and anything under that line is affected. There is no targeting:Extend a straight line, 4D6" long, from the Librarian's base in any direction - this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyroknight Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Since when does Blood Lance target a unit? You designate a direction of a line and anything under that line is affected. There is no targeting: You are correct, Blood lance and Jaws of the World Wolf do not technically target a unit. However the FAQ specifically states that deny the witch saves can be taken against them. Q: If the Blood Lance or Jaws of the World Wolf psychic power(or any beam power for that matter) passes through more than one enemy unit, does my opponent get to make a Deny the Witch roll for each unit affected? (p69) A: No. The first unit affected by the psychic power can attempt to Deny the Witch, but if that test is failed, every enemy unit is affected as normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 The FAQ kind of gives permission not only for beam powers in general but for Blood Lance specifically as well. This is in contradiction with the rule from deny the witch, the blood lance has no target. Allowing the save is either a houserule or, if incorporated into an errata document, a rules change. Such changes should be beyond the scope of a FAQ document. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 The FAQ kind of gives permission not only for beam powers in general but for Blood Lance specifically as well. This is in contradiction with the rule from deny the witch, the blood lance has no target. Allowing the save is either a houserule or, if incorporated into an errata document, a rules change. Such changes should be beyond the scope of a FAQ document. According to the old FAQs- havent checked the new ones yet today and dont have time right now- the target was the first model hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.