All Land Raider Army

[Mvidmaster]

I'm a new member and a relatively new player, and I wanted to try a thought experiment with the community. A Land Raider spam strategy similar to the flyers spam that some other armies are using. I've recently been taking a good look at Land Raiders in the codex (after ignoring them for a while due to their points cost), and with their AV 14 and 4 HP, they're pretty close to invulnerable. S7 and weaker weapons can't touch them, which invalidates a the majority of most army's firepower, especially at lower points levels, and S8 weapons can only glance, and only 11% of the time for BS4 models. Lascannons can only pen 11% of the time, and glance only 22% of the time, and most armies only run 2-3 Lascannons max on vehicles or Devs. S10 blast weapons (Vindicators) can glance 50% of the time because of the large model size of the LR, pen 33% and OHKO 11% with AP2, but again S10 blast weapons are very rare especially at lower points games. And when you divide all these numbers by multiple Land Raider targets, most enemy armies won't be able to deal much damage to you. If you know of a unit in the game that can put out better numbers than that against a Land Raider, please let me know because as I said I am still relatively new to the game so I am most familiar with Space Marines and not so much with the other armies.

 

Land Raiders also have powerful weapons and are able to fill the role of either mech-killer as a regular Land Raider, or infantry-killer as a Redeemer, and are able to divide up their shots thanks to the Machine Spirit special rule, so they are certainly capable of throwing their weight around on the battle field. So long as you focus their early shots on the few units in the enemy army that can hurt them, you'll likely be able to significantly reduce your opponent's chances of killing your LRs by the 2nd and 3rd turn.

 

Most games are played at points totals that are multiples of 250 (500, 750, 1000, 1250, 1500, etc.). Vanilla Marines have scouts as a troop choice that cost 75 pts, and hqs that cost 100 pts, which conveniently allows them to fill their core slots with 250 pts of hq and troops, which allows 2 Land Raiders for 750 pts, 3 for 1000 pts, etc. And since Land Raiders are transports but not dedicated transports, you can simply put each troop choice and HQ inside the Land Raiders for the duration of the game until it's time for them to come out and capture objectives on the last turn. And if you manage to kill all your opponent's scoring units, even better.

 

Pros&Cons:

Pros

Extremely durable army that is difficult to kill.

AV14 invalidates a large chunk of the opponent's army from the start.

Target Saturation dilutes enemy firepower.

Makes mistakes less punishing, as your units are less likely to die because of them.

Reduced units means reduced choices which means less chances to make mistakes.

Extremely powerful firepower that combined with durability makes it easy to get secondary obj.

All units are transports which makes it difficult for enemy to target weaker units.

Low unit count gives an advantage in KP games.

Powerful HS units gives and advantage in Big Guns Never Tire.

Units are able to temporarily trade firepower for mobility if needed.

 

Cons

Low unit count means less tactical options during a game.

Low unit count means less map control.

Mistakes that do get punished are much more debilitating.

Could lose a huge chunk of points to some very lucky dice rolls (remember, Lascannon needs 3+, 6, and 5+ in that order to OHKO a Land Raider).

Only 2 fragile scoring units.

Only 1 denial unit.

Has a limited amount of turns to kill opponent's anti-armor, scoring units, and anti-infantry.

Could lose to getting stunned or immobilized on the last turn.

Relies on having last turn to win objectives games, because of fragility of scouts.

 

Looking at the pros and cons, I think this strategy is favored more by smaller points games at 750 and 1000, due to having a potentially smaller board, which decreases the advantage of having more guys on the board, and the decreased amount of anti-armor in lower points games. If your opponent can't hurt your guys, then your basically on a clock to kill all their scoring units and get your scouts to the objectives before the end of the game. For this reason it would be best to have 1 Las Raider and 1 Redeemer at 750 and 2 Redeemers at 1000. The point discount on Redeemers would also allow you to buy Camo for one of your Scout squads at 1000 pts and 2 squads at 1250, giving them a 2+ cover save if their obj is in cover.

 

So what are people's thoughts on this? Crazy, moronic, cheese, viable? Am I overestimating the Land Raider's toughness in my ignorance of some Xeno super-weapon? Am I missing some critical aspect of the Land Raider or the rules that makes this type of list impossible? Let me know.

[Axagoras]

2 words, Melta Guns. I pack 6 multi meltas and 4 melta guns in 1850, and i always have them on hand.

[Jacinda]

2 words, Melta Guns. I pack 6 multi meltas and 4 melta guns in 1850, and i always have them on hand.

This

 

And ...

With Sisters of Battle, I can put 13 melta guns on the table in a 600 point combat patrol, 6 of them twin-linked on scouts.

 

Other problems can come from Eldar and their lance weapons which treat all armor as AV12 or less. If that does not get you, wait for those haywire grenades. They auto-glance on a hit.

 

Speaking of auto-glancing, Necron gauss weapons will glance on a roll of 6. That means the rank and file troops are carrying rapid fire weapons that can glance AV14. 20 shots, 13 1/3 hits, 2 glances from one troop squad on average.

 

Then there are the heavy hitters: monstrous creatures, Dreadnoughts and various other S10, double die AP units that will shred any armor in an assault. Thunder Hammers are nasty because if they do no glance you to death, they will leave a vehicle stunned for a turn on a single glancing hit. That means all the close combat attacks on the next round automatically hit.

 

Everyone has ways of dealing with heavy armor; some armies get it cheaper than others; some get it built in; I rely on it to handle heavy infantry and Independent characters as well so I have a fair bit even in my "all-comers" lists. Of all my units, only one can not harm AV14 (my Battle Conclave) and they are always followed by my Repentia (chainfist wielding assault troops) each with 4 attacks at WS5 and rolling 2 dice for armor penetration. Each attack has a 35% chance of getting at least a glance and you will be facing 36 attacks. But most people will not let me get my girls close to their Landraiders.

 

And one more down side, you can only have 3 per Force Organization Chart since they are Heavy Support choices.

 

Look I know this is sounding harsh but ...

You need to look at your various units and decide what role each of those will perform in your army. In general you need anti-infantry, anti armor (AV 13 and 14), anti-IC (walkers and monstrous creatures go here as well), a plan to deal with flyers and finally, troops to claim objectives. One of anything is too susceptible to bad rolls and too easy for your enemy to neutralize and capitalize on. One unit may be able to fill multiple rolls but it can not do them all at the same time.

 

Land Raiders are transports. They are delivery systems to get assault troops across the board. They are designed to take fire in order to crose the board, pop rhinos and give support to your assault troops by softening up any enemies who might counter assault. They are tougher than a rhino so that can last two turns easier where Rhinos are only going to last one. Use your landraiders to get your best hand to hand guys across the board and eating enemy troops as fast as you can. It has an assault ramp for a reason and you should exploit that advantage at every possible chance. They will not last long because they will draw a ton of fire, but every unit that shoots at your land raider is not shooting at that big ball of hurt that it just delivered into your opponent's deployment zone.

[ShinyRhino]

Unfortunately, the game has evolved, and left the Land Raider as a dusty relic. There is simply too much that can take one apart in a turn now. Yes, you could field five of them via the Space Marines codex. Three as Heavy Support, and two as Dedicated Transports for Terminators.

To pull off your "all Land Raiders, all the time!" army, we'd have to break it down by poitns and Force Org:

 

You have to sink 100 points minimum into an HQ. We'll say you're taking a bone stock Librarian, as he's cheapest and has the biggest chance of being viable in this build.

You need two Troops minimum. You can go el-cheapo with two 5-man Scout squads with non-sniper weapons (because there's no point in snipers in Land Raiders). 150 points there.

Three Heavy Support Land Raiders rack up about 260 per with multimeltas. A few points less for a Redeemer.

Two Dedicated Transport Land Raiders, again at about 260 per.

One shooty Terminator squad and one Assault Terminator squad, totalling minimum 400 points with no upgrades.

 

100+150+(260x3)+(260x2)+400= 1950 points.

 

It certainly sounds like a lot of AV14, but you have to remember that you now have only two scoring units, each 5-strong with 4+ armor saves. Ten wounds and you cannot win an objective game. You can expect any sensible Marine opponent to have 20-30 scoring bodies at that points level, non-Marine armies are likely to have more.

A Crusader puts out 16 twin-linked antiinfantry shots per turn, within 12". Only ten outside 12". A Godhammer put out three. A Redeemer puts out four and two templates. While buttoned up in those Land Raiders, you simply won't have the firepower to kill off enough models in five turns to win a game, especially when the enemy is shooting back at you.

The "only two or three lascannons" idea is a HUGE mistake. A Guard army can pack something like 30 lascannons into an army of that size, if not more. Any army with Monstrous Creatures will hit Land Raiders at S10 on a 3+. Vindicators, orbital bombardments, Vindicare Assassins, drop pod meltaguns, Battlewagons with Deff Rollas, massed Dark Lances, haywire grenades, multimelta attack bikes, and a pileo f other thinsg can all dismantle Land Raiders pretty handily.

 

In short, Land Raiders have never gotten cheaper in our Codexes. They've always hovered around 250 points, while everything else int he game seems to have gotten cheaper. That means there are simply too many small upgrades that can be taken en masse to avoid having your 250 point Land Raider slagged by a 10 point upgrade.

 

You can take more than one Land Raider in a list, but you have to carefully build that list to support the Land Raiders, keeping melta and melee off its back. It takes a very careful balance to pull that off, and a lot of playtesting. The sheer cost of putting five Land Raiders on the table is staggering. You can buy entire armies wirth of models for the cash you lay out for five Land Raiders, and have a better chance at winning some games.

[WarriorFish]

Well there's a couple of small novels here that state everything that needs to be said.

 

Land Raiders need support to be effective (like anything, but this is especially true for Marines) and there's no way you can do that with more Land Raiders!

 

In 6th I'd say a single Land Raider is more than enough for anything short of Apocalypse. Diversity is key; balance always wins in the end.

[Ming]

Peace through superior firepower.

 

I'm working on games with (gulp) ...no landraiders...no terminators...never thought I'd be doing that...but I need the points for more guns. Armor and exposed units just melt away so quick, you need cover, tactics, and your own firepower to get your missions accomplished. I think I read in a Nova assessment recently that some lists were nearing 50+ S5+ shots in a turn. I was packing a list at the FLGS recently with 5+ meltas, 5+ lascannons, 6+ plasmaguns, and over 8 other weapon systems S5 - S8. It was able to nearly table my opponent, which was comforting, but left me a bit weak on assault. My opponent had 3 flying monstrous demon creaturs and a soul grinder, units of oblitz, and 3+ large troop choices. A landraider would not have helped at all....(but accurate artillery or a vindicator might have been fun). Landraiders can be melted away by "simple" Vendettas...

[Mvidmaster]

2 words, Melta Guns. I pack 6 multi meltas and 4 melta guns in 1850, and i always have them on hand.

 

Sorry if I'm a noob for asking, but are meltas a threat to land raiders? The can only glance, and only on a six. Even if they get the twin-linked melta effect, that's not very scary, especially if the Land Raider army uses it's range and mobility to kill them first.

 

Mind you all this is just a though-experiment, I'm currently quite happy with my 1000 pt foot slogger list.

[FlamingDeth]

2 words, Melta Guns. I pack 6 multi meltas and 4 melta guns in 1850, and i always have them on hand.

 

Sorry if I'm a noob for asking, but are meltas a threat to land raiders? The can only glance, and only on a six. Even if they get the twin-linked melta effect, that's not very scary, especially if the Land Raider army uses it's range and mobility to kill them first.

 

Mind you all this is just a though-experiment, I'm currently quite happy with my 1000 pt foot slogger list.

At half range melta weapons roll two dice for armor pen.

[ShinyRhino]

2 words, Melta Guns. I pack 6 multi meltas and 4 melta guns in 1850, and i always have them on hand.

 

Sorry if I'm a noob for asking, but are meltas a threat to land raiders? The can only glance, and only on a six. Even if they get the twin-linked melta effect, that's not very scary, especially if the Land Raider army uses it's range and mobility to kill them first.

 

Mind you all this is just a though-experiment, I'm currently quite happy with my 1000 pt foot slogger list.

At half range melta weapons roll two dice for armor pen.

 

And on a penetrating hit, they add +2 to the dice roll for the damage effect. It's literally a 50% chance to explode a Land Raider on a successful penetrating hit.

[Jacinda]

When it comes right down to it, one of the best ways to find out if a list will work is to try it out with a few friends. Don't go run out and buy a bunch of Land Raiders you may not need, but you can proxy in something about the right size to use for testing. Try it out for a couple of games. If something is working, do more of that. If something is not working, think about how you can fix it -- being able to avoid the problem is also a fix.

 

Pragmatic experience is a better test than pregame speculation on whether or not an army list will work.

 

That said, I have my doubts about a Land Raider blitz, but I think you can find a tank heavy build you will like.

You may also want to look at Imperial Guard as an army option if lots of tanks is an interest to you. This is a power armor only forum, but you can find out more about IG from a couple of places in our web links.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...2&cat=6#186

 

I'm not trying to run you off; just showing you some options.

[Axagoras]

2 words, Melta Guns. I pack 6 multi meltas and 4 melta guns in 1850, and i always have them on hand.

 

Sorry if I'm a noob for asking, but are meltas a threat to land raiders? The can only glance, and only on a six. Even if they get the twin-linked melta effect, that's not very scary, especially if the Land Raider army uses it's range and mobility to kill them first.

 

Mind you all this is just a though-experiment, I'm currently quite happy with my 1000 pt foot slogger list.

I run 3 speeders with 2 multi meltas each, so i have a 24 inch melta range, in melta range i roll 2d6 ADDED TOGETHER to pen, aka on average i pen (8+7=15) and i explode you on a 4+ (ap1 is +2) nothing short of a titan or a super heavy can stay my wrath :D

[Mr.selfdestruct]

I feel for you, Mvidmaster. I considered an army in 5th edition similar to what you are suggesting, I only took it to the next logical step. Using the Blood Angel codex, land raiders are dedicated transports, and they can deep strike if you are feeling extra silly. I had considered for some time running them as pre-heresy World Eaters too. So I wrangled up some Land Raiders from both my own and my friends model collections. In all honesty, it's formidable and slightly intimidating to see that much armor staring at you. I ran them against a few different armies, including lance wielding eldar and a pretty strong Chaos Marine list. They did...ok. And this was in 5th ed, not 6th, and NOT against Necron or Meltavets or any of the lovely tournament lists we are seeing these days.

In spite of all this, I still LOVE this army idea. The Land Raider is an amazing tank, if you are willing to accept that an opponent WILL punish you for putting all your eggs in so few AV 14 baskets. I'll be honest, I'm still considering making this army now that there are so many awesome Heresy Era kits from Forge World. I'd have to sell all my other armies to afford it, but damn it's tempting.

The problem is that this is an army concept in which cool outweighs tactical sensibility. By all means, run any army list you want, but only if you AND your opponent are good sports.

 

BTW, here's the list I was talking about-

Gabriel Seth (Possibly Pre-heresy Khârn?)

5 man Assault squad with Meltagun and Power weapon in a Land Raider X5.

That puts you at 1860, so you can cut to 1850 pretty easily, or add a few more bodies, Multimeltas on the LR's, a couple of sanguinary priests to give FNP, etc.

OR you could take 6 bare bones assault squads in Land Raiders, plus a captain, and have all of 10 points to spare on...something. I'm not saying it's a good idea, I'm just saying its 6 Land Raiders in a 2000 point army.

[Axagoras]

Now that scares me...

[DarkGuard]

I think it depends a lot on the meta. At the recent tournament I played at Land Raiders would only have struggled against one list, Necrons. And even then he didn't have a lot of gauss. Assuming that the shift has gone from mech to hybrid and 2+ armour, we find ourselves with less melta and more plasma. Plasma doesn't do well against Land Raiders. This leads to a meta where armies may be equipped for one Raider, but not multiple Raiders. Try it out and see what happens I say.

[*Furyou Miko]

:) Jaci and I tend to forget that Marines don't pack nearly as much melta as we do.

 

The other option you might want to consider is the Black Templar book, as I believe they also get Dedicated land raiders. This would be awesome to see, even if my particular army would crush it because of inherent melta-saturation in a Sisters army (Basically, every squad has a flamer, a melta, or both in a Sisters army, so...)

[FabulousRex]

;) Jaci and I tend to forget that Marines don't pack nearly as much melta as we do.

 

The other option you might want to consider is the Black Templar book, as I believe they also get Dedicated land raiders. This would be awesome to see, even if my particular army would crush it because of inherent melta-saturation in a Sisters army (Basically, every squad has a flamer, a melta, or both in a Sisters army, so...)

 

 

 

...this! I used to run an evil BT army back in the days of 3rd-4th that was simple:

 

2 LR Crusaders stuffed with cheap troops +HQs

3 Vindicators

Fast Attack to flavor

 

While not 'quite' as nasty today, it's a list to keep in your back-pocket, as it might really surprise some people in this age of shooty foot-slogging. I'ld take a good-sized Bike squad with 3 PWs as a flank force to really hammer the assault pressure down on people, along with a MM/HF speeder squad to counter tank-hunt. You could swap those out for some Dual Tank Hunter Assault Cannons in a termi squad as well.