Using Sicarius and Lysander

[Brother Captain Andrew]

Hi everyone, I was playing a game versus one of my friends and he mentioned that he wanted to try running both Sicarius and Lysander to get an LD10 Stubborn army and asked me for some units that would mesh well with these two characters, I told him that Lysander is great with Tactical Terminators and that plasma command squads are better than ever however I wasn't really sure what type of list he could run to maximize their effectiveness (i.e. drop pod, mechanized, foot).

 

So does anyone have suggestions as to tactics or units that would work well with these two HQ choices? Thanks in advance.

[Kingkaneda]

If you want to maximize the effect of ld 10 stubborn, youd have to fight in CC alot. A hordish CC army. Perhaps a combination of scouts, assault marines and terminators?

[Validar]

Sorry if it seems offtopic, but stubborn is, in my oppinion, terrible for a SM army in 6th.

 

Without stubborn you get to flee when you feel like it. This saves you a few wounds from shooting (because people don't want to shoot you if they wanna charge) and can get you out of CC.

 

When you flee you have 100% chance to regroup. Your opponent can do 0 to stop it. In many cases this can be a great thing for you, especially when leaving CC so you can change target or charge again for that +1 attack after you put another round of fire into whatever you wish.

 

Why not flee from CC in your opponent's turn? With the new fearless rules it is without consequence! If he catches you, nothing happends and if you get out, you get out! And with chapter tactics you don't even have to hope for a failed morale check, you can simply choose it.

 

Stubborn works against this incredible buff to And They Shall Know No Fear and Chapter Tactics. I can understand if you want to use the characters that provides it for fluff reasons, no doubt! But I wouldn't call it a good choice list-wise :)

[ShinyRhino]

Sorry if it seems offtopic, but stubborn is, in my oppinion, terrible for a SM army in 6th.

 

Sad, but absolutely true. Stubborn is actually a handicap to Marines now, instead of a benefit. The only thing it used to do in 5th was keep you from taking No Retreat wounds as often. Now it does absolutely nothing, except on the final turn of a game when you're trying to hold an objective while locked in melee (and you're unlikely to be holding said objective if tied in melee within 3", as the opponent will be in contesting range).

Lysander is now a second-rate HQ choice. He's a beast in melee, but only benefits one squad with Bolter Drill, and hamstrings your entire army with Stubborn.

Pedro Kantor at least has a nice buff bubble, but is a slacker in melee and be KO'd with a single S8 hit.

 

Sicarius is actually slightly better in 6th than he was in 5th. He's a threatening duelist with his Coup De Grace attack, and has a stack of solid saves and Feel No Pain. The veteran skill he grants to a Tac Squad is nice as well.

 

Leave Lysander at home, and field Sicarius instead.

[WarriorFish]

I vote for Pedro Sicarius. His solid capabilities and unique rules makes him the heroic leader a Captain should be, not just a fancy beat stick wielder. His Leadership and Tactical Squad buffs are what makes him stand out.

 

I like to run him in support with my Tacticals usually a podding melta armed one with Tank Hunters but I'm looking into mixing this up in 6th. He'll spend the rest of the battle supporting my troops and going where he's needed if some dirty xeno needs slicing up to protect other squads etc. Like I said; I think he's how a Captain should be so that's how I use him on the table - so in my opinion he more or less decides how you use him by that alone.

 

Leave the boring headlong charges and one man army impersonations to other characters (like Lysander).

[ShinyRhino]

I like to run him in support with my Tacticals usually a podding melta armed one with Tank Hunters but I'm looking into mixing this up in 6th.

 

I've been considering running him, and using Counter Attack as the Veteran skill. Combined with Overwatch fire, Counter Attack is gold, especially when you're rolling on Ld10. Take a combiflamer, flamer, and heavy bolter. This is now your "take this pieceof ground, I dare you" squad.

[Ming]

Sicarius gets to finally be useful! It all now boils down to delivery...like in the Damnos book, where Sicarius needs to be delivered into the Necron army in order to defeat the Lord in single combat. Of course, it took about three squads of marines with overwatch from devs and dreads to pull it off, but it worked.

[Brother Captain Andrew]

Thanks for the insights guys. Other than a tactical squad what type of unit works best with Sicarius, tooled up command squad? i know he already has a command squad box.

[ShinyRhino]

Thanks for the insights guys. Other than a tactical squad what type of unit works best with Sicarius, tooled up command squad? i know he already has a command squad box.

 

I have run him alongside an all-plasmagun Command Squad in the past (5th Edition). That buildout gains a lot in 6th, since they can now move and fire at full range. The only loss is the drop to 5+ for Feel No Pain on overheats.

 

Alternatively, there are a couple idfferent schools on the building of Command Squads.

The Go Big Or Go Home school tools up the squad with a lot of wargear, and always includes stormshields. These guys tend to pack the shield, a ranged upgrade, and a melee upgrade. They total up to a lot of points, but have a reasonable chance of going most anything you want them to.

The Specialist route arms the squad identically, and assigns them to specific tasks. That task is typically to kill a certain type of enemy. All flamers for anti-GEQ work. All plasma for anti-MEQ/TEQ. All melta for anti-tank, etc etc.

Finally, you have the I Have a Lot of Spare Sergeant Models school. This one is a mish-mash of various loadouts made up of all the models you have laying around, lol.

 

Sicarius doesn't even really need a Command Squad. He's perfectly comfortable hanging out with a Tactical Squad. He's not enough of a beatstick to warrant a tooled melee Command Squad, and his shooting isn't plentiful enough to pin him to a shooty Command Squad. He actually compliments a Tactical Squad best, deterring or deflecting challenges and soaking up AP3 firepower with his artificer armor.

[templargdt]

W/R/T Sicarius, I've heard that the digital codex shows the Coup attack hits at Str 6 AP 2, not AP 3. Does anyone know if that's true? I'd be more tempted to shell out that many points for a character if he could cut through Terminator armor.

[Axagoras]

I couldn't find anything saying that but if it does say that then he is worth it.

[WarriorFish]

I've been considering running him, and using Counter Attack as the Veteran skill. Combined with Overwatch fire, Counter Attack is gold, especially when you're rolling on Ld10. Take a combiflamer, flamer, and heavy bolter. This is now your "take this pieceof ground, I dare you" squad.

That's a good idea, I'll be sure to give it a go :D

 

As for his coup de grâce attack if it really does hit at AP2 then he'd be almost too good... which is why I doubt this is the case. If the digital codex does say AP2 I'd wager it's a typo.

[ShinyRhino]

W/R/T Sicarius, I've heard that the digital codex shows the Coup attack hits at Str 6 AP 2, not AP 3. Does anyone know if that's true? I'd be more tempted to shell out that many points for a character if he could cut through Terminator armor.

 

I've not seen anything to that effect, and unless you have the rule in-hand (shell the bucks for the digital codex), I wouldn't count on anyone allowing you to do so, since his weapon was just FAQd in hard copy to be "a power sword".

[templargdt]

I did a quick search and sure enough, according to this guy it is indeed str 6 AP 2. I wrote GW asking for an FAQ update.

[Brother Captain Andrew]

I did a quick search and sure enough, according to this guy it is indeed str 6 AP 2. I wrote GW asking for an FAQ update.

 

Wow, I might have join my friend in buying Sicarius, and ally him with my Black Templars. Coup de Grace at AP2 would be one of the ultimate moves in a challenge, not many AP2 weapons at initiative outside of Monstrous creatures plus its strength six so wounds T4 on a 2+.

[ShinyRhino]

I did a quick search and sure enough, according to this guy it is indeed str 6 AP 2. I wrote GW asking for an FAQ update.

 

I'd consider that thread "dubious" at best, since everything else he mentions is proven incorrect in the Space Marine FAQ. Without a screenshot of the digital codex proving otherwise, the rules for Sicarius' power sword remain firmly at AP3.

[Brother Captain Andrew]

Another source, not sure if its reliable either but if it is there are quite a few differences between digital and FAQ.

 

Digital vs FAQ

[ShinyRhino]

Another source, not sure if its reliable either but if it is there are quite a few differences between digital and FAQ.

 

Digital vs FAQ

 

Interesting, but I'd like to see something alittle more recent than July (which is prior to the 1.1 FAQs).

[Captain Idaho]

I personally don't really rate using Sicarius and Lysander to formulate super-Stubborn, since it relies on being beaten to gain a benefit from it.

 

If you are able to use the two characters usefully in your army then go for it and include them, but don't force yourself to pay double points on a pair of characters just for an army that is less likely to break in assaults. If that's what you want to do, then just pay for Calgar and save 135pts and have a powerful character.

[DarkGuard]

I did a quick search and sure enough, according to this guy it is indeed str 6 AP 2. I wrote GW asking for an FAQ update.

 

Wow, I might have join my friend in buying Sicarius, and ally him with my Black Templars. Coup de Grace at AP2 would be one of the ultimate moves in a challenge, not many AP2 weapons at initiative outside of Monstrous creatures plus its strength six so wounds T4 on a 2+.

 

It's also one attack. In that situation I'd prefer Khan. On a 6 on the model is dead (unless it passes a save of course). Not bad, and more attacks to ensure hits.

[Brother Captain Andrew]

I did a quick search and sure enough, according to this guy it is indeed str 6 AP 2. I wrote GW asking for an FAQ update.

 

Wow, I might have join my friend in buying Sicarius, and ally him with my Black Templars. Coup de Grace at AP2 would be one of the ultimate moves in a challenge, not many AP2 weapons at initiative outside of Monstrous creatures plus its strength six so wounds T4 on a 2+.

 

It's also one attack. In that situation I'd prefer Khan. On a 6 on the model is dead (unless it passes a save of course). Not bad, and more attacks to ensure hits.

 

True enough, but Khan's sword is only AP3 so most characters/multi-wound models will have a 2+ save. Also you have to roll a six for ID which is a 1/6 chance versus a guaranteed Instant Death. Khan is fantastic for challenges, but I think Sicarius gets the slight edge because his Coup de Grace' removes the 2+ save.

[DarkGuard]

True, but most MCs aren't 2+ armour save, and I don't think most characters are either. A lot maybe, but not all. The point though should also be what they bring to the list vs cost. Sicarius doesn't bring enough to justify his points cost IMO. Lysander barely does, and is better in challenges IMO, for the same cost. Khan is cheaper than both and adds another dimension to the list. Although killy characters did get better, we should still keep in mind their utility, especially with SCs.