Night Lords and "Friends"

[Kol Saresk]

Okay well pics of the new units are out. As I pointed out earlier, the Warp Talons are using the Night Lords as mascots like the Raptors before them. So what does that exactly mean for the Night Lords? As a couple o people have pointed out in several threads, Chaos seems to be taking a rather drastic change forward. Like one person said, it's starting to look more like Codex: Dark Mechanicus rather than Codex: CSM. And as another person shouted with glee, this is looking more like Traitors and less like Renegades.

 

But it got me thinking. Looking back at the Night Lords history, originally they were another Khorne Legion. And then they became the "atheists" of 40k. Now it is every warband for itself, which is okay with me. And what happens to the Alpha Legion who are supposed to be the least mutated Legion of all? Or the Iron Warriors who hate mutation? Do they have a place in the "new" 40k when the minis are displaying warp exposure and mutation oh so proudly?

 

Now, anyone who knows anything about everything I've ever said knows that as long as the fluff isn't Mary Sue to the infinity power, I'm okay with it. But what exactly does 6th Edition hold for the Traitors and Renegades who aren't exactly the most "devoted" of servants to Chaos? Is GW going to go enact yet another of its infamous retcons? What are your thoughts?

[Brother Ambroz]

Been thinking about this a great deal too. Honestly, even if GW changes their fluff again to we're all "warped superhuman mutants", I'm still going to play mine the same. My warband will ask for the blessings of the gods when it suites them, although some of them are dedicated to a single god. A few have mutations but for the most part due to their geneseed, they don't have many mutations. For those "puritanical" Night Lords (or even the Alpha Legion/Iron Warriors) who hate mutations and despise worship of the Dark Gods, I fear they'll have a much more difficult time explaining the use of the new miniatures.

 

edit for spelling.

[Daemon2027]

Until we see the fluff in the book it will be hard to say. I don't think they will radically change the fluff, it will not mesh with what the black librey is doing. Imagine a new player liking the Night Lords so picks up the Night Lord trilogy. If the codex fluff and the black librey stuff doesn't add up then it will just confuse, and even turn people away from buying either models or books.

 

So far we have only seen pics of the demon engines and Warp Talons. It will be good to see what other kits that may or may not appear.

[AekoldHelbrass]

Well, I think that if they will not fully replace current CSM box - it will be just great to make my Night Lords not just "marines with spikes" but "Evil marines" from capital E. And all those mutated parts will be useful for my new Emperor's Children army, finally good base models for such complicated army.

 

I hate new Raptors though, I've started my Night Lords after reading "Lord of the Night", and for me "Raptor" means current model, not some trendy "pre-heresy" stuff without style. Just take a look at old clawed feet and new ones, then at old Lightning Claws and new ones.... Have to buy at least 2 more boxes of finecast raptors before GW destroyed them completely.

[Saa]

Now, anyone who knows anything about everything I've ever said knows that as long as the fluff isn't Mary Sue to the infinity power, I'm okay with it. But what exactly does 6th Edition hold for the Traitors and Renegades who aren't exactly the most "devoted" of servants to Chaos? Is GW going to go enact yet another of its infamous retcons? What are your thoughts?

 

I've been so focused on the words...'new codex'.......'Dark Apostles'...and my love of the Word Bearers that I hadn't personally taken this into consideration. The last 'dex was too 'renegade' as a lot of people like myself feel but I hadn't considered it going the other way......

 

I would hope that with the plethora of HH novels and stand alone Chaos fiction published by the BL since the last 'dex would influence the representation of the non-pantheon legions too.......'hope' being the operative word here. We're all on tenterhooks waiting for the new publication....time will tell very shortly it seems

 

Saa

 

....or something like that

[Iron Sage]

As I have said before, I think it is proper that the Dark mechanicus has finally found their rightful place in the Chaos Space marines Codex. After all, they do create our arms and ammunition, so it stands to reason that they should have a place. I really dont think a few daemon engines is necesarilly in contradiction with even "puritan" fluff, if they are wielded by allied Mechanicum elements (i.e. the stuff they roll out of the dark closests of theirs within their secret holds in an astartes strike cruiser etc.), and one really doesn`t have to field them in the first place either. We are also getting regular raptors and then the more warp fused warp talons, both nice elements in a Nightlords force. Puritans will also have access to regular marines, cultists, bikes, vindicators, preds, raiders, and lords are supposedly getting better. So I think there will be ample room for even the most Puritan of builds, while allowing for fluffy Dark Mechanicum elements ;)

[Brother Ambroz]

Depends on the individual warband's fluff if the dark mech create ammunition, arms, etc. Some simply get by by stealing, pilliaging, etc (not mine though). I'm worried that set of units will be far more powerful than others, once again making it difficult to play fluffy lists against the powerful 5th ed codex books. For example, a puritan list (mostly marines) might be pretty strong whereas a corrupt list might be weak. Or vice versa. With a codex for sure on the horizion, I guess I'm just getting anxious about it.

[Saa]

Depends on the individual warband's fluff if the dark mech create ammunition, arms, etc.

 

Iron warriors for sure......

 

Some simply get by by stealing, pilliaging, etc

 

Night Lords

 

This is my concern now........

 

Saa

 

....or something like that

[Lord Ragnarok]

Not planning on changing my guys to "all warp spawned death or nothing" For me variety is the spice of life. I'd want full corruption(DV chosen and possessed) and recent corruption (recent renegades in their old armor with their iconography defiled). All bowing down, or trying to knife in the back, the Lord of the Maelstrom.

[Yogi]

If you hang out in the warp for ages you get mutated, the new infantry reflect that well enough I reckon.

 

What we have seen is that all the models are going that way, which is fine because they are difficult to convert to look like that. If you want athiest types from the heresy you have forgeworld HH and loyalist kits + some spikes.

 

I think the new vehicles look pretty pants. Probably because instead of being possessed vehicles or even mechanical contraptions (Brass scorpion), they look really organic a mesh between flesh machine and daemon, which is probably appropriate but not to my taste.

[Brother Ambroz]

What we have seen is that all the models are going that way, which is fine because they are difficult to convert to look like that. If you want athiest types from the heresy you have forgeworld HH and loyalist kits + some spikes.

 

True enough. That's what I've been doing for the most part anyway. With alot of people using the new corrupt ones, it'll make the forgeworld HH/loyalist kitbashes stand out a bit more.

[Kol Saresk]

As I have said before, I think it is proper that the Dark mechanicus has finally found their rightful place in the Chaos Space marines Codex. After all, they do create our arms and ammunition, so it stands to reason that they should have a place. I really dont think a few daemon engines is necesarilly in contradiction with even "puritan" fluff, if they are wielded by allied Mechanicum elements (i.e. the stuff they roll out of the dark closests of theirs within their secret holds in an astartes strike cruiser etc.), and one really doesn`t have to field them in the first place either. We are also getting regular raptors and then the more warp fused warp talons, both nice elements in a Nightlords force. Puritans will also have access to regular marines, cultists, bikes, vindicators, preds, raiders, and lords are supposedly getting better. So I think there will be ample room for even the most Puritan of builds, while allowing for fluffy Dark Mechanicum elements :huh:

Personally, i don't disagree with this. I really don't. While I would probably feel better if the Dark Mechanicus had its own army to showcase its Tech Guard and Skitarii, I do not have a problem seeing some of its siege engines entering the armies of Chaos. About time we got Daemon Engines outside of Forgeworld's Decimator(which is still relatively new). Like I said, my general concern is if they do replace the entire Chaos model range. They did replace the entire paint range after all.

 

If you hang out in the warp for ages you get mutated, the new infantry reflect that well enough I reckon.

 

What we have seen is that all the models are going that way, which is fine because they are difficult to convert to look like that. If you want athiest types from the heresy you have forgeworld HH and loyalist kits + some spikes.

 

I think the new vehicles look pretty pants. Probably because instead of being possessed vehicles or even mechanical contraptions (Brass scorpion), they look really organic a mesh between flesh machine and daemon, which is probably appropriate but not to my taste.

Taking this one backwards. I agree with you on the engines. Nice look, just not to my taste. When I hear "daemon engine" I tend to think a bit more on the mechanical side.

 

Now, on mutations, yeah that's generally how the fluff goes with warp exposure and such. That's fine. Until you get Legions like the AL who are supposed to have no mutations(or rather no discovered mutations), the Iron Warriors who hate mutations and some of the Night Lords who pretty much share the Iron Warriors taste for mutation, but without their devotion to Chaos.

 

Like I said, my primary concern comes from the fact that the Night Lords are being used as the "mascots" for the Warp Talons. In some Warbands, the Talons fluff will mesh perfectly. In others, they will definitely have to borrow the Raptor's fluff of not being liked by the rest of the Warband. And there will be some where the mutated Raptors will not be liked at all and their current fluff will conflict with the overall feel of a Warband.

 

Me personally, will not experience any of these problems. I like Night Lords who have fallen to Chaos. The feel of them is a very good feel to them. That and I don't want to have explain the "Fight to remain pure" with a warband of murderers, former rapists and thieves. Just not the feel I want to go for.

 

But there are ithers who want that feel. Some will want a mixed vibe much like we saw in A-D-B's Night Lord's Trilogy. Others, will be one or the other like what was seen in Lord of the Night with Zso Sahaal and Krieg Acerbus.

[Lay]

But what exactly does 6th Edition hold for the Traitors and Renegades who aren't exactly the most "devoted" of servants to Chaos? Is GW going to go enact yet another of its infamous retcons? What are your thoughts?

Well, the Dark Vengeance models represent renegades who turned traitor during the 41st millennium and who want to rid themselves of Khorne's gift. So I guess the new design is meant fit all kinds of CSM, not just the most corrupted ones.

As long as they don't alter the basic fluff of the less chaotic legions, I'm fine with that.

[Yogi]

I have no sympathy for loyalist AL players (They can easily play a Ultra dex). And the AL IA included mutations, with the AL rather hilariously "flashing" their chaos gifts at the last moment for shock effect in close combat, IIRC anyway.

 

There is nothing stopping the mixed vibe from Soul Hunter. Narrow minded traitors who spurn the gifts of the Chaos Gods aren't impossible to represent and are a minority.

 

That Cerberus 3 headed dog war machine is growing on me.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I'll never understand why GW gives minorly-divergent loyalist chapters their own Codex but insists on trying to shoehorn genuinely disparate traitors into one.

[Yogi]

You only need one, same with the loyalists. Their diversification is purely financial.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, I'm going to put up the same thing here that I just put up in the Chaos Rumor thread since the current conversation there does somewhat relate to this topic.

 

Okay, let's get something straight before I start this off. I like how the new minis look. But like -Max- and Tanith, I do feel something is off with this. For one thing, not even all of the Traitor Legions, are "Chaos" Marines in the same sense as what some people are expecting. Look back at 3.5. What Codex did the then Atheist Night Lords, Mutation-hating Iron Warriors and No-mutation-at-all Alpha Legion wind up in? I believe it was the 3.5 Codex. The 3.5 Chaos Space Marines Codex to be exact. I could be wrong because that was before my time in relation to when I became interested in the Hobby. So I will give you the benefit of the doubt there.

 

4th edition. Yes, it sucked. Miserably. Possibly even worse than a working woman on Orange Blossom Trail in Orlando, FL. I don't know, can't compare from personal experience because I avoid OBT like the plague. But it did highlight an emphasis on the Post-Heresy Marines, specifically those who were true Renegades and not just "Chaos" Marines.

 

Now, it looks like there is no room for the "Hated-by-everybody-except-those-who-play-them" Renegades don't exactly have room in the new 6th Edition if the models are any indicator of the fluff. Neither do the Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion. Here's why:

 

Puritan Night Lords have been portrayed as having almost nothing to do with Chaos except as a tool. They avoid mutation and despise all who bear it, even those of their own Legion.

 

Midway Night Lords are more accepting of mutations but have no particular devotion to Chaos.

 

Radical Night Lords are well, Radical. They are extremely accepting of mutations and will even worship the Chaos Gods. Personally, these are the Night Lords I like most because they are the ones I get the most comfortable vibe from.

 

Iron Warriors, as a majority they hate mutation in all of its forms but do worship Chaos and strive for Daemonhood, although the one example I have ever seen of a possessed Iron Warrior(Onyx from Dead Sky, Black Sun) showed that he had no brothers amongst Legion. So I would say they don't look too favorably on Possessed.

 

Alpha Legion, these guys would be the guys to go every which way under the sun. But for the most part, they are the "purest" bunch of Traitors out there. IA has them having no mutation whatsoever. Fluff doesn't exactly show a whole lot in the way of devotion or mutation, outside of DoW and CS Goto.

 

And then there's the Renegades who hate the Imperium but aren't necessarily Chaos either.

 

So it all comes down to this. Warp Talons are using Night Lords colors for mascots. Again, i don't have problem with this. They do look like nice models. Although they look more like a Space Marine rip-off than the original Raptors did. The Raptors look streamlined and aerodynamic. These guys do look like someone just took the new standard Marine, slapped some bone claws on their fists and then slapped on a jump pack. If they don't drop the original Raptors, I can see some amazing conversions coming out of this.

 

The Warpsmith. Not the Warsmith that was rumored, but a Warpsmith. Doesn't sound like much of a difference. Unless you take in the very Iron Warrior-esque feel, what I said above and the fact that it is a Warpsmith and not a Warsmith. Yes, these are taking the CSM in a nice direction that I do like. But, what about everyone else? I am not the typical American who cares about only me, myself and anyone else I decide to care about, and I am definitely not the typical individual who has a some what narrower view. I actually do give a crap about what the other Chaos players would want to play because I find that I enjoy the Chaos vs Chaos fights more than I enjoy the Chaos vs Imperium fights. And I also acknowledge that not every "Chaos" player, wants an army that is solely devoted to Chaos, or even looks like it is solely devoted to Chaos.

 

Now, the first response is going to be the extremely typical, and in my opinion WRONG response of "Well hey, screw them. They can go play off the Space Marine Codices if they just want to be Renegades." I view this as wrong because it seems extremely selfish to me. As a player, you should give a crap about what everyone else wants because that is who and what you are going to play against. Two, I might be wrong but I believe there is a reason "Renegades" are the same as "Traitors" even if there is a difference in methods. Like I said, I could be wrong but I do believe there is a reason why there is not an entry for Renegades in any of the Loyalist Codices.

 

So in summary, I do like the new, organic feel. In the case of the daemon engines, I was thinking of more of a blending between Daemonic and Organic rather than "Let's do the reverse of what we were doing and take something organic and try to make it look mechanical." I understand completely if I am wrong for believing that it should be 50-50 and not 70-30. But what about the people that don't necessarily want this? What changes in fluff is it going to cause? I know many of the Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion players aren't too specific about these concerns. In the case of Night Lords, it goes form player to player. Now, many of you either will or will want to respond to this with the underlying sentiment of "I don't play that army, or I don't play it that way, so I don't care." Kudos to you for conforming to the society of self.

 

Anyway, that's pretty much my bit to say. Judge as how you see fit for we all judge whether it be good or bad.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

You only need one, same with the loyalists. Their diversification is purely financial.

 

So, what? You're saying that GW chooses to make less money than they could?

[Kol Saresk]

You only need one, same with the loyalists. Their diversification is purely financial.

 

So, what? You're saying that GW chooses to make less money than they could?

Apparently. But I think it does have something to do with 3.5. I don't know how the SM were back in those days, but Chaos was able to enjoy a variety of set army lists(or rather the same army list with variable restrictions) and that resulted in the basis of "We give you one army and you make it your own." where the Space Marines apparently have completely unique armies with such unique feels that they cannot achieve the same and as such, those armies that do not have "key" characters get a whole Codex.

[Kol Saresk]

But what exactly does 6th Edition hold for the Traitors and Renegades who aren't exactly the most "devoted" of servants to Chaos? Is GW going to go enact yet another of its infamous retcons? What are your thoughts?

Well, the Dark Vengeance models represent renegades who turned traitor during the 41st millennium and who want to rid themselves of Khorne's gift. So I guess the new design is meant fit all kinds of CSM, not just the most corrupted ones.

As long as they don't alter the basic fluff of the less chaotic legions, I'm fine with that.

I thought they were Loyalists cursed by Khorne who went into the Eye so they would only kill Traitors and came out fully corrupted?

 

But yeah, my biggest concern is that the fluff will be changed to reflect the minis rather the minis reflecting the fluff. If I am completely wrong and the fluff stays the same and we simply have a wider range of minis to pick from, I will be a very happy camper.

[Yogi]

I can argue its selfish to want it the current and old way. The new stuff DV box etc lets you field archaic warped marines from hell. If I wanted that in the past you had no real option but the possessed marines kit.

 

Chaos codex is for dabblers and worshipers of Chaos. If you wanna field separatists or atheist renegades it was actually better to use the Ultra dex. It makes no sense why new renegades would be limited to preheresy kit; autocannons on termies etc.

 

Huron's boys are full chaos anyway.

 

 

 

"During the Lethe Ambush, mutated Alpha Legion Space Marines hid their warped body parts, not out of shame, but so they could reveal them as they attacked – adding horror and revulsion to the shock of their sudden attack."

 

Some AL confirmed for mutant freaks. IA also says AL dont reside in the Eye which is lol.

 

@Res.. Chaos fans are far outnumbered by loyalist fans. It is purely financial.

[Kol Saresk]

Fair enough on the mutation bit. I just remembered something(I really want to say IA article) where autopsies show no mutations in the Alpha Legion. Which would be consistent with them not being in the Eye as it would equal severely less warp exposure.

 

Also, Huron and the Corsairs are not the only Renegades now are they?

 

And Night Lords are not exactly Ultra dex material. They would end up having to use the Blood Angels. Iron Warriors, I don't think there is a suitable Loyalist equivalent for them.

 

But, like I've said in my original post and since then, the codex and the minis ARE NOT MY MAIN CONCERN. my main concern is whether or not the fluff is going to end up changing to reflect the minis, which leaves no room for the less devoted in the fluff. Anyone can work around the minis and the list. That is not a problem. It's the fluff. And yes, fluff and Codices are not strictly related. Like you said, Chaos is for Chaos. And according to the Imperium, if you are not for the Lords of Terra, then you are for Chaos. As such, Chaos is a catch all for all traitors.

[Azekai]

Yogi

I have no sympathy for loyalist AL players (They can easily play a Ultra dex). And the AL IA included mutations, with the AL rather hilariously "flashing" their chaos gifts at the last moment for shock effect in close combat, IIRC anyway.

 

There is nothing stopping the mixed vibe from Soul Hunter. Narrow minded traitors who spurn the gifts of the Chaos Gods aren't impossible to represent and are a minority.

 

Chaos codex is for dabblers and worshipers of Chaos. If you wanna field separatists or atheist renegades it was actually better to use the Ultra dex. It makes no sense why new renegades would be limited to preheresy kit; autocannons on termies etc.

 

Preach it, brother. All these 'we are chaos but no, we don't worship it. the gods suck,' types are sort of getting on my nerves.

Chaos is for Chaos. And according to the Imperium, if you are not for the Lords of Terra, then you are for Chaos. As such, Chaos is a catch all for all traitors.

The High Lords' perspective is wrong. The Dark Gods are chaos. You can't be a chaos space marine without them. Yeah, it's cool to pretend you are badass enough not to depend on any stinkin' Gods, but these rebels are simply deluding themselves. Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, they are all servants of chaos, and if you deny that and don't want to use all the warp-y stuff, fine, your game; but by all means, use a loyalist dex that will offer you the more mundane options you crave.

[Kol Saresk]

Let me explain for fifth time(maybe sixth, don't know, they're all over the place) I support Radical Night Lords. That means, I support the Night Lords who rode down to the Highway to Hell laughing and cheering.

 

Hmm, the High Lords are wrong. So GW's wrong then because they made the High Lords. And their view points. Okay, I'll believe you even though you and I never wrote the fluff.

 

Again, I also feel the need to point this out, my main concern in fluff. Not minis, not flipping codices and not armies so for the love of all pepperoni pizza, BBQ, an jambalaya please stop bringing those parts up. Fluff, not minis. Fluff, not codices. Fluff. F. L. U. F. F. F-l-u-f-f. Fluff.

 

Yogi, again I apologize on te AL mutations. I read the general parts that show no devotion to Chaos except in their cults(DoW exlcuded) and then saw "They don't live in the Eye", and "use no daemons" and somehow skipped over the Lethe part and came to the conclusion that not only did they have a lack of devotion, but they lack mutations and yet have no problem with either/or. Which is 2/3 true.

 

And yes, I might be selfish for wanting a combined Codex over the people who just want 3.5 back.

[Biaz]

But, like I've said in my original post and since then, the codex and the minis ARE NOT MY MAIN CONCERN. my main concern is whether or not the fluff is going to end up changing to reflect the minis, which leaves no room for the less devoted in the fluff. Anyone can work around the minis and the list. That is not a problem. It's the fluff. And yes, fluff and Codices are not strictly related. Like you said, Chaos is for Chaos. And according to the Imperium, if you are not for the Lords of Terra, then you are for Chaos. As such, Chaos is a catch all for all traitors.

 

Ignoring my personal beliefs on what makes Chaos, I'll focus on this.

 

I don't think they are going to radically change the Legions. We're now in the 6th edition of 40k, going for what, 20 years? More? I don't know. The Legions' histories established now, as is the fact they are all 'Warbands'. So they're not going to suddenly make NL Khorne worshipers again. The Warp Talons being painted in blue is a throw back to the stereotype of Night Lords loving jump packs, as opposed to Night Lords suddenly loving Chaos. In the new book, sure there might be mention of warped AL and IW, but they're not going to change it so that all Alpha Legion reside in the Eye and are super mutated, they will just say some do, giving people the choice to model their new warband how they like. The newest models will all be warped, because they need to give chaos an image, make it unique. If you don't want this, well I belive the standard CSM box is here to stay, and the rhino chasis certainly isn't going anywhere. GW will say "You don't have to take Warp Talons. Or look, this Space wolf box comes with Lightning Claws, and these Assault Marines have no mutations! Buy them and convert!"

 

Those who want their un-chaosed chaos will survive. The background won't change radically, and if you want to be a 40k hipster, you'll have to make a few sacrifices here or there, or compromise.