All hammer Terminators/Paladins

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Given that 6th edition is essentially AP3 edition for power weapons, our TDA squads are substantially more durable in melee now. However, we also suffer from the AP3 nerf, with our halberds now bouncing off enemy 2+ saves.

 

With that in mind, are halberds that relevant anymore? Hammers generate reliable wounds, they break armour pretty damn well (especially under 'Hammerhand'), and they nuke 2+ straight back. It does require that we wait for Initiative 1 to roll around, which means enemy Terminators are getting their powerfist/thunderhammers going as well.

 

So, is going all hammers viable?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I run one Paladin with a warding stave and the rest with hammers. It's working well for me so far.

 

G ;)

[Vash]

Well I think a mix of weapons if more interesting now, and of course, hammer more so.

I try to have as many hammers as possible, but I only have 7 in total for my 20 TDA. 4 on my Paladins and 3 on my terminators. It has been enough so far, just need to protect those guys more.

 

The basic sword is still really good. increasing the invunrable save by 1 is really helpful. I use them to "soak" wounds when my stave is dead.

Also, there are other targets than just 2+ armor guys for our TDA. Preferably TDA shouldnt face other TDA. Just look at war history, an elite unit should NEVER fight another elite unit. They are suppose to fight with the odds in their favor.

 

My usual targets are power armors, and perhaps vehicles if needed. Of course, other 2+ armors have to be dealt with sometimes, but preferably by other means.

[RedemptionNL]

Also, there are other targets than just 2+ armor guys for our TDA. Preferably TDA shouldnt face other TDA. Just look at war history, an elite unit should NEVER fight another elite unit. They are suppose to fight with the odds in their favor.

This. Equipping all hammers means you'll still loose big against other Powerfist/Thunderhammer wielders, the only difference being that you take more with you. But you loose the ability to defend against the growing number of models that can strike at AP2 at their own initiative, such as Incubi or Screamers, for which halberds are jummy.

 

That, and halberds look cooler. :)

[Aethernitas]

Also, there are other targets than just 2+ armor guys for our TDA. Preferably TDA shouldnt face other TDA. Just look at war history, an elite unit should NEVER fight another elite unit. They are suppose to fight with the odds in their favor.

This. Equipping all hammers means you'll still loose big against other Powerfist/Thunderhammer wielders, the only difference being that you take more with you. But you loose the ability to defend against the growing number of models that can strike at AP2 at their own initiative, such as Incubi or Screamers, for which halberds are jummy.

 

That, and halberds look cooler. :)

 

THIS

 

I only really need Hammers versus tougher vehicles and to onehit those pesky T5 W2 modells. For any other unit I prefer halberds cuz even against other TEQ squads the mass of stormbolter/flamer/psibolter fire plus Ini 6 hitting on 3+ and wounding MEQ on 2+ (Hammerhand + rad-grenades) makes those terminators fail more than enough saves :)

[thade]

Honestly, you don't want to be going against TH/SS terminators in melee with Paladins, no matter how they're equipped; Hammernators are still the mightiest melee unit in the game. I don't think they should be a factor in determining your paladin load-out beyond how many psycannons you pack to light them up from afar. Force them to take as many 2+ saves as you can with ranged firepower while you melee-mulch everything else.

 

That said, most armor in the game is 3+ or worse, so I think increased initiative is still a measure better than AP2 super strength. Due to the new vehicle rules, you won't need more than a handful of hammer hit glances to take out any ride foolish enough to get close to your troops, and anything else you'll want to breeze through while taking as little return punishment as possible. You don't want to bring zero hammers, but personally I wouldn't bring all hammers: two to three hammers, a stave on point, and halberds or swords for me.

[spartan249]

I'm running my pallies the same way. I'm finding that close combat is extremely rare, and the few times I do engage, it's with annoyingly tough dudes with 2+ too often. If I run into assault, I want to make sure it's over ASAP so I don't lose any time moving and shooting. Time is at a huge premium where TDA heavy armies are involved.

[thade]

That is actually a very good point. If somebody puts TH/SS termies on a table across from Paladins, the TH/SS terminators have one very definite target. If you can't ground their Land Raider before they close, that will get ugly. Having all hammers does mildly improve that, though it's still not a desirable position to be in.

 

That said, what else shows up en masse with 2+ armor and AP2 melee? 2+ save units that come to mind for me (Honor Guard, Sanguinary Guard) are packing AP3, which phases terminators not, especially if you've got an Apothecary in the mix.

 

EDIT: Typoz.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I think our best option here is more of a Sun Tzu approach. Be strong where our opponent is weak, and weak where our opponent is strong. What's the best way to deal with 500 or 600 points of Terminators? Leave them holding a table quarter all by themselves ;) Don't engage them, lead them on and leave them high and dry all by their lonesome and take on the rest of your opponents army. If at all possible use terrain and objective locations to your advantage. Unless they're playing Dark Angels, their Terminators aren't scoring. The best they can do at that point is contest something, so ignore them. Don't engage them, annihilate the actual threats of their army (things that can score or contest) and win on Mission Objectives.

 

Don't try and fight fire with fire, sometimes if something is just that big and scary it's not about killing it, it's about nullifying it or rendering it non-effective.

[Vash]

I think our best option here is more of a Sun Tzu approach. Be strong where our opponent is weak, and weak where our opponent is strong. What's the best way to deal with 500 or 600 points of Terminators? Leave them holding a table quarter all by themselves ;) Don't engage them, lead them on and leave them high and dry all by their lonesome and take on the rest of your opponents army. If at all possible use terrain and objective locations to your advantage. Unless they're playing Dark Angels, their Terminators aren't scoring. The best they can do at that point is contest something, so ignore them. Don't engage them, annihilate the actual threats of their army (things that can score or contest) and win on Mission Objectives.

 

Don't try and fight fire with fire, sometimes if something is just that big and scary it's not about killing it, it's about nullifying it or rendering it non-effective.

 

Well said.

My point exactly... but didnt go through so well.

[Gentlemanloser]

With the recent faq equating Iniative Step to Initiative, if you have a Libby with Quicksilver, take all hammer.

 

I10 Nemesis Deamonhammer will ruin *everyones* day. ;)

 

(The 'step' you attack at is equal to your modified Initiative. Unwieldy sets this to 1, Quicksilver sets this to 10. Codex rule takes precendence. Your Initiative Step is no longer a seperate value to your modified Initiative score.)

 

Fight Sub-Phase, Initiative Steps

 

Work your way through the Initiative Values

 

Assault/Plasma Grenades

 

don't suffer the penalty to thier Initiative

 

Do you pile in twice?

 

No. you pile in once. At your highest Initiative Step

 

Unwieldy and Pile in

 

Pile in and fight at Initiative Step 1

 

So you work thorugh Initiative *Values* when you count down the steps in that combat round. When you reach a 'step' that is equal to your Initiative *value*, you get to pile in (and attack). As someone with Unwieldy Piles in at Step 1, that must mean thier Initiative *Value* is 1.

 

As Grendes stop you taking penalties to your Initiative, and charging through DT makes you attack at Initiative Step 1, then you Initiative Step must equal your Initiative Value.

 

Therefore Codex > BRB and Quicksilver NDH strike at I10 and Initiative Step 10.

[MFive]

easy counter to TH/SS termie squad btw is a henchmen squad with 12 lascannons(monkeys) with prescience to re-roll to hit, that or lots of plasma

[Lysere]

As Grendes stop you taking penalties to your Initiative, and charging through DT makes you attack at Initiative Step 1, then you Initiative Step must equal your Initiative Value.

 

Therefore Codex > BRB and Quicksilver NDH strike at I10 and Initiative Step 10.

 

That is one thing I think you are wrong about. Grenades are intended to prevent the penalty to I. However unwieldy is different, your step and your actual Initiative are not the same, one is equal to the other but not the other way around. So while you will indeed be I 10, you will still swing at 1. Nothing changes this.

[spartan249]

Are we still trying to pull the "Model's Initiative overrides modifiers set by a weapon's special rules" and all that jazz? I mean seriously... it takes some seriously wishful thinking to extend the argument that far. The way I see it, Quicksilver sets your models to Initiative 10, which is pretty great stuff. That is, of course, until you use an Unwieldy weapon to make your attacks. When you're using an Unwieldy weapon, your model can be Initiative Insanity, doesn't really matter, as you strike at Initiative Step 1 when using said weapon. Trying to get this to fly in any realistic situation seems like a fool's errand, IMO. I suppose GW putting their foot in their mouth again doesn't really help, but the community has always been better at finding and fixing bugs anyway, so whatever.

 

I think there's a lot to be said for a squad of Hammer equipped Paladins under the effects of Prescience and Spear of Light, as it means that I'll be hitting a lot and almost never failing to wound. High efficiency is, IMO, the name of the game, and I can't think of other loadouts that are more efficient then this.

 

I in fact ran into a situation where I was facing 20 TH/SS terminators with my Draigowing. Had it been Draigowing by itself vs the 20 TH/SS dudes, I would have been screwed to the wall in no time. However, by using my supporting Strike Squads and Stormraven, I was able to force my opponent to split his forces and choose to either attack me or defend his fragile backfield, at which point I flooded the squads with saves, then charged when they were suitably weakened (50% full strength) and finish them off with my Hammers Galore, taking a few derp wounds on Draigo. Of course, most of my Strike Knights were sacrificed for this, but it ended in my win, so their sacrifice was not in vain.

 

Supporting forces are a huge part of this discussion, and I think they should not be ignored when talking about a Paladin/Terminator Squad's loadout.

[Gentlemanloser]

your step and your actual Initiative are not the same

 

If that's the case, nother Assault nor Plasma grenades work, and you'd pile in at I4 with a Power fist.

 

The FAQ clarifies you *don't* pile in at I4, but at I1.

 

And the rules state you pile in at your Initative value.

 

Unwiledy *has* to modify your Initiative Value to an effective 1, for this to happen.

 

Each way, Initiative Step is equal to your Initiative Value. They are interchangable.

 

Are we still trying to pull the "Model's Initiative overrides modifiers set by a weapon's special rules" and all that jazz? I mean seriously... it takes some seriously wishful thinking to extend the argument that far

 

Codex > BRB.

 

Quicksilver is a Codex rule. Unwieldy BRB.

 

So while you will indeed be I 10, you will still swing at 1. Nothing changes this.

 

So when do you Pile in in this case?

 

Pre FAQ would have been 10. Post FAQ is 1 (if the I10 isn't a Codex based rule...).

[spartan249]

There is one assumption here that I think is skewing the representation of the concept of Initiative Steps, and that is that Initiative Steps are a characteristic of a model itself. That's incorrect, as Initiative Steps are an arbitrary structure through which assaults are resolved, and through which a model's initiative is used to determine the order said assault is resolved. Therefore, Initiative Step =/= Initiative Value, as one describes an arbitrary structure while the other describes the characteristic of a model.

 

I really don't think there is any question here about how this works, and that anyone proposing that Quicksilver allows I10 Hammer strikes simply did not read the actual unwieldy rule.

 

Quicksilver simply sets your Initiative Value to 10. That's all there is to the power.

 

Unwieldy forces the model attacking with said weapon to hit at Initiative Step 1 unless it's a MC or Walker, neither of which is true in the case of terminators.

 

In any case, this is quite a bit off topic, and most likely already hashed out to oblivion. Signing out of this mess.

[Gentlemanloser]

The thing is, you attack at the Initative Step that is equal to your Initative Value.

 

GW have now clarified with the FAQ that these are no longer sperate and anything that changes what Step you attack at, now does so by changing your Initative Value.

 

So to get you to attack at Step 1, an Unwieldy Weapon modifies your Initative Value to 1 to do so.

 

Step and Value now go hand in hand.

 

There's no other way to work the rules.

 

There's no other way to allow Grenades to work, or to make you pile in when you attack with an unwieldy weapon.

 

As I ask above, a GK with a NDH and Quicksilver. When do they pile in, and why?

[spartan249]

That leap of logic is rather spectacular. All GW said was that Pile in moves and attacks when the model was attacking with an unwieldy weapon in assault are done at the same initiative step. All it really proves is that they want pile-in moves to be resolved at the same time they would perform their first attack, as in this instance, it's being assumed that the model only has one close combat weapon to use.

 

If your assertion were valid, then what would happen in the instance that a techmarine with a nemesis force sword and servo harness were to enter assault? Would the unwieldy rule then modify the techmarine's initiative to 1, causing the sword's attacks to whiff because his effective initiative is 1? As already stated, the Techmarine would pile-in at his highest initiative to make his attacks, then have his servo arms attack at I1 due to Unwieldy, which overrides the norm of striking at initiative.

 

As I assert, Initiative Step =/= Initiative Value, Codex > BRB has no relevance to this issue, as the order of operations nullifies the boon of I10 when striking with hammers.

[Gentlemanloser]

That leap of logic is rather spectacular. All GW said was that Pile in moves and attacks when the model was attacking with an unwieldy weapon in assault are done at the same initiative step. All it really proves is that they want pile-in moves to be resolved at the same time they would perform their first attack, as in this instance, it's being assumed that the model only has one close combat weapon to use.

 

And grenades.

 

And the rule that stats you pile in when the step reaches your initative value.

 

Edit: Nothings changed the rule that you pile in when the step reached equals your I Value. Therefore when you pile in atI1 with an unwieldy wepaon, you *must* have reach the step equal to your I Value.

 

Otherwise the rules break down.

 

If your assertion were valid, then what would happen in the instance that a techmarine with a nemesis force sword and servo harness were to enter assault? Would the unwieldy rule then modify the techmarine's initiative to 1, causing the sword's attacks to whiff because his effective initiative is 1? As already stated, the Techmarine would pile-in at his highest initiative to make his attacks, then have his servo arms attack at I1 due to Unwieldy, which overrides the norm of striking at initiative.

 

Sinmple, that's covered by the FAQ.

 

You pile in once, at the highest step you act in. So the Techmairne would pile in once at I4, when he attacks with his sword (which isn't unwiledy), but he would be able to attack again at I1 with his servo harness. Which IIRC isn't unwiledy, it gives extra attacks at a set I1.

 

No issue here, even if the Arms are unwieldy.

 

Edit2: Besides, the Servo Arm rules are Codex rules...

[Lysere]

Gentlemanloser you are reading too much into their answer. True technically speaking they did not fix grenades. I will agree with you on that point, however you can not get I 10 hammers.

 

GW answered a very specific question; Do models with the unwieldy rule pile in at their normal Initiative. To this GW said no. This does not change the rule and does not make Initiative and Initiative Step become one and the same, it simply clarifies that if you strike at I 1 because of an unwieldy weapon you also pile in then, or as in the case of the techmarine example, you pile in when you would make your first attack. Since people wielding hammers are only usually swinging with one weapon they would pile in at 1 because that's the step they would swing in.

[Gentlemanloser]

This does not change the rule and does not make Initiative and Initiative Step become one and the same, it simply clarifies that if you strike at I 1 because of an unwieldy weapon you also pile in then

 

Well, the rule is that you pile in when the iniative step reached equals your Iniative.

 

So some rule *must* have been changed.

 

Your Iniative must now equal 1, when using an Unwieldy Weapon, or the FAQ falls apart.

 

It's the same for Grenades and Difficult Terrain. DT imposes a step penalty, the Grenads negate any Iniative penalty.

 

Are you also ruling that a DCA under the effects of Quicksilver, when charging through DT piles in at I10, but attacks at I1? The DT penalty isn't 'unwiledy' so isn't covered by that new FAQ entry.

 

Edit:

 

Basically, the rules work perfectly when you equate Initiative Value to Initiative Step, but quickly break down when you try to keep them seperate.

[stephane4985]

The grenade specify you don't get penalty to your initiative. So your initiative stay the same. The rules says you pile in and attack at your initiative, hence you pile in and attack at your initiative when you have grenade.

 

Unwieldy specify you attack at initiative step 1. It doesn't tell you your initiative is 1, it doesn't even talk about initiative value.

 

Unwieldy doesn't care about initiative, you could be I10, I4, whatever, you attack at initiative 1.

 

It is a special rules that override the normal rule that says you attack at your initiative step.

 

What's not to understand. There is nothing in the faq that come and change that.

 

The only thing in the faq that contradict the rules are that it says you pile in at initiative 1 for an unweildy weapon. But the rules says you pile in at your highest initiative. By the unweildy rules the attack are at initiative step 1, and there is nothing nowhere that contradict that. The faq only add that you pile in at I1 also, which is not in the rule.

 

So we can argue about when we pile in when we have 2 weapon and one of them is unweildy ( per the faq, 2 weapons = you pile in at highest init, but if one of them is unweildy, you pile in at initiative 1, which would means you attack with the other weapon before you pile in?? Or you attack with the other weapon at initiative step 1 too? This is the confusion)

 

But there is no confusion about when you attack. You attack at initiative step 1. Says clear in the rule book and nothing contradict it in the faq.

[nurglez]

I'll echo what a few others have said here, if you are sending your terminators into close combat with other terminators something has gone wrong... Our terminators/paladins are great all rounders, and you should out shoot what can threaten you in close combat and out combat what can threaten you at shooting.

 

I have 3 hammers among my 15 paladins, as that is all that came in the box. I realize that vs other terminators in combat this is a problem, however if they were all equipped with hammers they would end up as expensive TH/SS terminators without the SS.

[Gentlemanloser]

The grenade specify you don't get penalty to your initiative. So your initiative stay the same.

 

DT doesn't imply any Initiative penalty.

 

It only makes you attack at Step 1.

 

Unless...

 

Attakcing at Step 1 *is* an Initiative Penalty, as attacking at Step 1 is achived by making your Initiative 1.

 

Unwieldy specify you attack at initiative step 1. It doesn't tell you your initiative is 1, it doesn't even talk about initiative value.

 

Unwieldy doesn't care about initiative, you could be I10, I4, whatever, you attack at initiative 1.

 

Sure, and that was the old reasoning.

 

With a Power Fist, you used to pile in at I4, and atack at I1.

 

Now, with a Fist, you pile in at I1.

 

It is a special rules that override the normal rule that says you attack at your initiative step.

 

Codex rules trump BRB rules. Everyone should be embracing this by now.

 

The only thing in the faq that contradict the rules are that it says you pile in at initiative 1 for an unweildy weapon. But the rules says you pile in at your highest initiative. By the unweildy rules the attack are at initiative step 1, and there is nothing nowhere that contradict that. The faq only add that you pile in at I1 also, which is not in the rule.

 

Of course it does! You say it yourself! You pile in at the highest Initiative. When do you pile in with an Unwieldy weapon? Initiative Step 1. Therefore, your Initiative *has* to be 1.

 

So we can argue about when we pile in when we have 2 weapon and one of them is unweildy ( per the faq, 2 weapons = you pile in at highest init, but if one of them is unweildy, you pile in at initiative 1, which would means you attack with the other weapon before you pile in?? Or you attack with the other weapon at initiative step 1 too? This is the confusion)

 

Aye, having more than one weapon confuses things, and GW have't addressed this.

 

But there is no confusion about when you attack. You attack at initiative step 1. Says clear in the rule book and nothing contradict it in the faq.

 

Nope, no confusion.

 

Initiative Steps are just a label for the sub phases used in CC. 10 to 1. A mini gets to act when the Step is equal to thier Initiatve Value.

 

What isn't clearly explained is that modifiers that force you to act at a specific step, do so by modifying your Initiative Value.

 

That's the *only* was the current CC rules work.

 

Unwieldy makes you attack and pile in at I1 (as does DT) becuase it modifies your effective Initiative Value to be 1, so when you count down the steps you don't act until Step 1.

 

That's why DT test apply an Initiative Penalty, which both types of grenades negate.

 

To rule any other way breaks the fragile CC rules. And leaves you with Quicksilver DCA charging through DT piling in at 10, but attakcing at 1.

[stephane4985]

Attakcing at Step 1 *is* an Initiative Penalty, as attacking at Step 1 is achived by making your Initiative 1.

 

Changing initiative step is not changing initiative. One of the consequence is the same (attacking at initiative step 1) but the cause is not.

 

Of course it does! You say it yourself! You pile in at the highest Initiative. When do you pile in with an Unwieldy weapon? Initiative Step 1. Therefore, your Initiative *has* to be 1.

 

Not it does not have to. You want it to be. Changing the initiative step at which you attack with a certain weapon doesn't change your initiative. You are implying it but it doesn't make it so. Initiative step and initiative value are closely related most of the time but in no way are the same thing.