Kol Saresk Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 I feel the need that I must apologize for my very recent actions, both on here and New Badab. When the pictures were leaked and I saw the Warp Talons, my very first thought was "That is exactly the look I have wanted for my warband." It seemed like a decent mix between the organic DV set and the older models. My second thought was "Wait, those Night Lords. Is that because Night Lords have been the Raptor Legion since 3.5 or is this indicative of some sort retcon that says 'Hey guess what, everyone Chaos does mutations now.'?" My third thought was "What does that mean for the Chaos players who, unlike me, have warband fluff that aren't exactly as devoted to Chaos or such a big fan of mutations?" So I made a topic to ask you guys if anyone else had feelings that were similar to this or if I was just overreacting, which I do from time to time just like everybody else. However, I started going overboard because I saw responses of "Well if you don't think your army is going to fit into the new Codex, just play count-as with the SM Dex. And I overreacted to the extreme because for some reason my patience left me when my concerns over fluff were answered with how to play with a different Codex. So I spen most of today going over everything and felt the need to apologize for my reactions. So, B&C, New Badab(Because I know you congregate here) I'm sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Remember, mutations isn't something you choose, it's something that happens to you due to warp exposure, and the Night Lords have been in the Eye of Terror as long as any of the other legions. Plus, they make you look scarier, and the lords are all about inspiring fear. You don't have to worship a chaos god or sell your soul to a daemon for your armor to become twisted, baroque, and ornate after thousands of years in a chaos drenched environment (though many night lords do worship chaos, too). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 Yes, but no. As was pointed out, it is the Alpha Legion you aren't devoted and actually use mutations for any advantages they might get out of it. Night Lords and Iron Warriors are still pretty anti-mutation. Just look at how Cyrion gets treated by everyone, even Uzas. Although Uzas was a bit justified in his hatred. Onyx from the Iron Warriors. The Newborn. Yes, some accept mutations. Some devote themselves. Some just want the power. Some are a mixture of these and some are none of these. May I have not explained myself well on this point, but I personally don't mind Night Lords like Uzas, Cyrion and the Exalted. But not only are there Night Lord fans whose personal fluff may or may not share that view, but there are people who play some of the less mutated Legions, Renegades or even DIYs. My concern was that if the new "official" fluff says "Hey guess what, everyone Chaos is mutated now." More than a few players' warbands go down the drain. My concern is for them, not myself. Yes, we can argue all night and day that it really shouldn't matter how much it lines up with the official fluff. But there will always be that fluff Nazi who goes "Ooh! Chaos is all about mutations now! You can't have a non-mutated CSM army! Ooh! Buttclench!" And sometimes, one encounter with one fluff Nazi is enough to turn off a player from the game forever. Personally, I would rather see any possibility of that never happening. It is kind of why I'm a little happy that the new CSM range looks like it will be mixed between old and new. It allows everyone from the "I want 3.5 back!" to the "Thank Khorne it's finally here! Hallelujah and praise Slaanesh! And look, it's gotten shiny!" to be able to experience their army in a way they can enjoy without a fluff Nazi ruining it for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I dont think you need to apologice for anything. Everything is new, and then people being people, some will always be disgruntled as it is no longer part of their comfort sone. Such reactions are very human, and also very understandable. I had the same reaction concerning the Chosen initially, as I thought, "wait, my Iron Warriors are not supposed to be that mutated" and etc. Then as it dawned on me that the models actually truly looked great, I started to look for fluffy excuses to include them instead. I really still think it will be possible to play a "Puritan" build in the comming codex as well. I doubt that "normal" marines will look very warped, and there is for instance nothing stopping one from converting loyalist dreads to get that "true Dread" look if one feels that for instance the hellbrute is out of place in ones legionary inventory. Personally, I will try to run one old school and one of the newer models alongside each other. I think it is normal though, that the new chaos codex has a focus on the warped and the malign so to speak, and if all else fails, one can truly use "counts as". Personally, I love the new models. I was initially not too keen on the forge fiend, but now it reminds me of a lesser Dark Mechanicum titan and then it "suddenly" became "cool" in my eyes. Not a huge fan of the CC oblits, but I dont truly mind the "Primate" look. It is one of many ways I see khornate daemonic possesion by the way, fueled with contorted rage to the brim and the muscles and arteries almost popping out of the skin! Still not a fan though. But I think the rest of the model is more of a problem than the faces. The models are just too simmilar to the long range support blits that we all know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darknightdrako Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 All I can say is, play the fluff you like with the rules you like. Remember 40k is a vast universe with lots of exceptions. Just like the saying "Marvel your universe" its "Warhammer 40k your universe" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 However, I started going overboard because I saw responses of "Well if you don't think your army is going to fit into the new Codex, just play count-as with the SM Dex. And I overreacted to the extreme because for some reason my patience left me when my concerns over fluff were answered with how to play with a different Codex. I feel your pain, frater. Unless you truly unloaded on someone, I wouldn't worry about it. Play a different codex? We veterans of the 4th edition? No sir. This is OUR new edition, for we have remained true through the Long War while others fled to codices unnamed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totgeboren Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Just ignore the bits of background you don't like. I know it sucks, because then you end up in a situation where you are not playing the same w40k as your opponent, but I think that is always the case to a lesser or greater degree. Rule-wise, if you don't want daemon engines, just don't use them. I know it will feel like your are playing with half a codex instead of a proper one, but that is always the case with chaos, as the book tries to mix 9 different armies into one book, which is what we have had since 2007 anyway. And no one is forcing you to buy the new models. That their armour is baroque and weird might not be much of a problem (lots of personal trophies and custom jobs), and worst case regarding the mutations, you can always just cut them off and replace them with bits you like. I mean, it's not like you are prohibited from using loyalist parts in your NL miniatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 However, I started going overboard because I saw responses of "Well if you don't think your army is going to fit into the new Codex, just play count-as with the SM Dex. And I overreacted to the extreme because for some reason my patience left me when my concerns over fluff were answered with how to play with a different Codex. I feel your pain, frater. Unless you truly unloaded on someone, I wouldn't worry about it. Play a different codex? We veterans of the 4th edition? No sir. This is OUR new edition, for we have remained true through the Long War while others fled to codices unnamed. What -Max- said. The time for vengeance is at hand, with a blade forged from our own anvil, not one borrowed from the neighbors. Surety of purpose, purity of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradigm Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I am a little bit mixed emotionally about the new models. I picked up DV as soon as it came out, even though I'd seen the pictures. When I realized they weren't Word Bearers and instead were some thinblooded chaptertrash that had been in the eye for all of ten minutes and already looked that warped, I was extremely worried about the fate of my warband. My Nightlords are not at all obviously mutated, their armor is more military in look, and less baroque even then the last edition's csm codex. Most of my models are at least 50% kitbashed with loyalist marines. I have been waiting since 2007 for a plastic CSM dreadnought, even before I started my Night Lords. Now we have a B) is it called? The new models look like they'll make the word bearers, black legionnaires, even the cult legions happy, but the legions that remained relatively pure in comparison are being left in the cold. The Iron Warriors get a little love, though I really wish they'd called that model a Warsmith vice Warpsmith, but the times are changing I guess. Worried about the implications for Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and all the warbands that tend to follow that mold. I'm thinking some of the models are beautiful, but sadly, mostly, not for me. I'll probably pick up the raptors, give away the jump packs and mutated heads and use them mostly for spare parts. I'll wait for the chosen and cultist kits to decide if I pick up those. Don't like the Hell Drake at all, nor the other daemon engines. They look like metal tyranids. I'll need to see the models before I know conclusively, but don't think I'll get them. Really really wish I had a new Land Raider, with Reaper Autocannon sponsons that carry 16 models though. I will buy the codex, but wont use it if they prevent my army from working the way I want it to. I'm going to keep playing, I'll keep building my army carefully and expensively, I'll buy lots of loyalist kits like I always have for parts, and I'll keep my Nightlords walking the fine line they have been since I started my army. I don't want boons from fickle gods, I want the Imperium to crumble under the tread of their stolen tanks, I want the sky to rain ancient, hungry drop pods filled with 8ft murderers in midnight warplate. AKA, Don't bring a tentacle to a gunfight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I don't want boons from fickle gods, I want the Imperium to crumble under the tread of their stolen tanks, I want the sky to rain ancient, hungry drop pods filled with 8ft murderers in midnight warplate. AKA, Don't bring a tentacle to a gunfight. The Warmaster's vision of a better galaxy for Mankind cannot be achieved by being a slavish plaything to the creatures from another dimension that dare to call themselves "gods" or "daemons". They exist to be subdued, used, then disposed of. The galaxy belongs to Humanity, and Humanity belongs to the Legions. Make them to know their proper place, bind them into iron and brass, yours to command, or suffer not their unclean presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradigm Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Well said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darknightdrako Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 The Warmaster's vision of a better galaxy for Mankind cannot be achieved by being a slavish plaything to the creatures from another dimension that dare to call themselves "gods" or "daemons". They exist to be subdued, used, then disposed of. The galaxy belongs to Humanity, and Humanity belongs to the Legions. Make them to know their proper place, bind them into iron and brass, yours to command, or suffer not their unclean presence. Best post I have read so far this week. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I don't want boons from fickle gods, I want the Imperium to crumble under the tread of their stolen tanks, I want the sky to rain ancient, hungry drop pods filled with 8ft murderers in midnight warplate. AKA, Don't bring a tentacle to a gunfight. The Warmaster's vision of a better galaxy for Mankind cannot be achieved by being a slavish plaything to the creatures from another dimension that dare to call themselves "gods" or "daemons". They exist to be subdued, used, then disposed of. The galaxy belongs to Humanity, and Humanity belongs to the Legions. Make them to know their proper place, bind them into iron and brass, yours to command, or suffer not their unclean presence. Awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Chaos is changing. That's the way of it. It's hardly anything new, isn't it? Some are going to be pleaed with the changes, and some disappointed. The designers are trying to make chaos its own faction, instead of just a knock off of generic marines, and I'm all for it, but I understand how some won't be pleased. I never was on board for this 'everything's about the heresy era' take on chaos marines, but I can't deny the attraction to the stories from which our faction first spawned. Still, you don't spend ten thousand years in the eye and come out looking, acting, or even thinking like you did the day you were first found refuge there, let alone the day your primarch first bent knee to the Emperor. You just don't. Still, if you already use loyalist models or bits for half your stuff, why does it bother you? Loyalist models aren't getting more mutated, just go on doing what you're doing and you'll keep your clean, non-mutated, non-chaos look. I haven't myself suggested that anyone use the loyalist codex - I'm just suggesting that if you want clean marine bodies, use the loyalist model range, because they already have that look. And forgeworld has plenty of stuff for that look as well, from it's wide variety of excellant and rather affordable (for FW anyway) Legion Dreadnoughts, to the new Horus Heresy stuff they're releasing. I mean, I understand the bitterness. Chaos Marines were one thing, now they're something else (though many forget they were something else before they were the one thing, also). Nerd/Geek/Dork hobbyists don't like change under the best of conditions, let alone when they're looking at an aesthetic shift in a hobby that doesn't match what they've spent thousands of dollars on already. I guess all I can say is that I hope giving chaos a visual identity more distinctive than 'pointy marines' will attract enough new players to offset the old players it alienates, and I hope at least some of those old players who feel rebuffed find FW's heresy era miniatures an acceptable consolation prize. Yeah, FW models are a bit pricier (though their prices don't seem to have gone up as much as GW's, so comparatively they aren't as bad as they used to be), but presumably if you're hung up on that aesthetic, you're a vet player with an established army, and you can afford to save up for a few special models to add rather than needing to collect from scratch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoros Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Remember: In the 6th ed BGB, it says that some Chaos Marines are hideous mutants, whilst others are indistinguishable from Imperials other than by their actions. I don't think you need to worry about the fluff changing; it's just the models' aesthetic, and guess what? If you want "Evil Space Marines", you can convert Loyalist models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexington Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I guess all I can say is that I hope giving chaos a visual identity more distinctive than 'pointy marines' will attract enough new players to offset the old players it alienates I don't get this oft-stated opinion. The new Chaos Marine models are still, clearly, "pointy Marines," just more so. Much, much, much more so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I guess all I can say is that I hope giving chaos a visual identity more distinctive than 'pointy marines' will attract enough new players to offset the old players it alienates I don't get this oft-stated opinion. The new Chaos Marine models are still, clearly, "pointy Marines," just more so. Much, much, much more so. Yeah I don't get it either. Kol - Why are you apologizing? For getting a little upset people were reading only the first line of your post and then saying "just go use the C:SM"? Well I would've been upset too because they didn't even take the time to read that you already said your marines are not like that. That you were talking about fluff and not codex books. You have nothing to apologize for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I guess all I can say is that I hope giving chaos a visual identity more distinctive than 'pointy marines' will attract enough new players to offset the old players it alienates I don't get this oft-stated opinion. The new Chaos Marine models are still, clearly, "pointy Marines," just more so. Much, much, much more so. Yeah I don't get it either. Kol - Why are you apologizing? For getting a little upset people were reading only the first line of your post and then saying "just go use the C:SM"? Well I would've been upset too because they didn't even take the time to read that you already said your marines are not like that. That you were talking about fluff and not codex books. You have nothing to apologize for. Agrees. No one should apologice for being dissapointed or wanting to argue fluff as long as they do not walk into the realm of personal attacks. And as for Dark Mech contigents, well every single legion warband and likely, renegade chapter, will get in touch with them to simply survive! No legion warband (guess its remotly possible in the fluff, but still) can really survive by raiding the imperium alone. They DO need forges. Regular worlds, do not produce astartes .75 caliber bolter shells (remember those are mehanicum RELICS, punishable by death to even touch for a normal human), and unless a raiding warband targets ONLY astartes forge worlds and some how manages to win every time and come up on top regarding ammo expenditure and spare parts, the Dark Mech is necessary and damn fluffy for even totally "non-corrupted" warbands/legions. Horus knew that all was lost without the Mechannicum, and that is more true 10 000 years after (now that the legions themselves have lost their homeworlds). Simply put: Without the Mechanicum the astartes are nothing. That is also very true for the traitors, and as I said, most probably even more so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I agree that Kol shouldn't need to apologize for his feels, unless I missed some specifically problematic post. As for the new look just being spikier - it's also more daemonic, with leering daemonic faces on the armor & more daemon engines. And, if the hellbrute is an indication, more warped daemonic flesh on even non-daemonic vehicles - though honestly the new daemon engines don't look nearly as daemonic as the hellbrute - with its teeth, random tentacles, asymmetrical details & profile, larger surface area of daemonic flesh, & fleshy and mechanical elements growing into each other rather than clearly distinct. I think that's my own slight disappointment with the new daemon engines - they may be more bestial, but they're far less warped and daemonic looking than the hellbrute, which is ironic given that the hellbrute isn't even a daemon engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 One thing with that though Malisteen. The Hellbrute actually has flesh. So fluffwise anyway, perhaps that is why it has more fleshy areas than the daemon machines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Flesh inside from the pilot, but otherwise the flesh on it is grown from warped mutation. According to the white dwarf description, the Helldrake also at one point had a chaos marine pilot, though it was completely consumed by the possessing daemon, so there was mortal flesh in that one at one point, too. And you can't shake the fact that the fiends and drake are much more symmetrical and ordered in appearance, lacking the random eyes and tentacles and asymmetrical silhouette of the brute. The daemon engines just aren't as warped or chaotic in appearance as the starter box dreadnought is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Hmm I haven't read the description because the sites blocked. Yeah you're right then. Guess that's where the converting comes in then. That is if these things are actually worth the time spent to convert them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I'm not too sure. My other problem with them is that they're huge, expensive, centerpiece models for units that, from the rumors, don't have 'huge expensive centerpiece' rules to back them up. 12 armor, 3 hull points, not exactly overwhelming firepower. I mean, We're not talking land raider/monolith/tyrannofex kind of impact on the table, but that's the size and price range they're in. Even if they're cheap enough points wise to be efficient game choices, I'd feel kind of weird purchasing and playing a daemon engine the size and dollar cost of a monolith, but the durability and offensive output of a dreadnought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 With the size of those things too they'll be like walking targets.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I read that entire thread and you didn't seem disrespectful or rude, so no real need to apologize in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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