Chaos Flamers

[IK Viper]

Getting ready for a 1750 tournament saturday, I have played 7 test games, and I have won 5, drawn and then got decimated by Chaos Daemons.

 

I knew it was a very bad match up, which is why I wanted to play it, to see just how bad it was. The guy basically ran 3 big squads of Flamers, a screamer squad, a lash prince, Lord of Change, a Chaos Vindi, Chaos SM squad, and a small squad of plauge bearers

 

I did get to go second and I set up my stuff right on the board edge in a line, hoping that he would DS more conservatively in hopes of not mishapping off the table.

 

He got his prefered wave and the flamers came down and I lost 50% of my force before I ever touched a model...

 

I know that the way to beat Daemons is to dakka them since they only have ++ saves but in an all comers army, my fire support is based around a Las Predator and a Stormraven, my dante wing /JP RAS had no choice but to assault the flamers after shooting as much as I can. I even combat squadded my RAS squads to try and minimize the damage... I killed 2 flamer squads the turn they came down but the damage was done. By turn 5 I had Dante, a SR, and his Sang. Guard squad left and we called it.

 

I know that a Jumper list is a terrible match up against this, my Terminator/shooty list would have done better and I will probably take them this Saturday

 

I was hoping for some advise on how you guys beat daemons, specificaly flamers, normal daemons don't scare me at all, but a unit of 2 wound, 5++, jump troop models that have basically AP2 flamers that also BTW glance vehicles on a 4+ that are 23 points a model... how do we deal with that? How do we outsmart GW's marketing tactic...

 

The Screamers did not have a big roll in the game, but I hear they are nasty too, again 2 wounds, 5++, jet bike rules, and strength 5 AP2 weapons in CC that strike AT INITIATIVE... (the only other unit that does this are DE Incubi, and they are 1 wound, and can be outrun)

 

I feel like the whole thing is a big marketing ploy that ppl are literally buying into and going along with, but the sad truth is right now its legal and we have to play it...

 

We can load up in Rhinos and then rapid fire them after they glance the vehicles to death I guess, but against anything else rhino rush is hard to make work... I need an idea for an All Rounder build that can deal with daemons, (don't have any GK right now or I would bring Coteaz with a Purgation squad with 4 Psycannons and try to create a safety bubble and move outward from there.)

[Zedrenael]

You need to spread out to the maximum. Use that 2" coherency to the most. Try to use ruins and multiple levels, that gives them the risk of mishap since ever model must touch another model in the circle so if he gets to close to a wall he will mishap. The other thing is that a flamer can only effect a single level at a time. If you are afraid for your vehicles use your squads to surrond your tanks with a 2" coherent and 4" from the tank pattern. Other than that your counter punch should be to use small squads like broken squads due to the previous round of shooting. Use them to charge first and risk the lost. Once you do that your bigger and better squad can come in right behind.

[IK Viper]

I used all these tactics you discribed... made no difference, I will say he used a Lash of Submission to move my guys around to hit 2 squads with one flamer salvo.

 

I thought about DS all my guys as much as possible, the thing about that is since Flamers are jump troops all they then have to do is DS into the middle of the board and they can jump and flame anything is a 24 inch bubble...

[Zedrenael]

Well then what you need is more interceptor/skyfire weapons. You think about running Coteaz in your army. I run a small detachment:

 

Coteaz 100

Henchman - 150

- 3x Plasma Cannon Servitor - 60

- 1x Banisher - 15

- 5x Crusader w/ Power Axe

 

This is 250 points of pure destruction. You can get divination with Coteaz and cast presience on the plasma cannon servitors to make sure they do not get hot and can get the hit. Another thing to consider is a Skyshield landing pad for 75 and get those 4+ invuls. The banisher will also make him re-roll his successful saves. This is a force to reckon with. Some food for thought.

[Remtek]

He should not be able to deep strike in your deployment zone. Daemons suffer from 12" scatter. If he is dropping his flamers next to your units his taking a huge risk if you spread your army out and close to terrain. Flamers and Screamers pretty much beat anything per point spent, but they can be shot up consistantly, their biggest weakness is not being able to start on the table.

 

 

Overwatch on the flamers is pretty insane as well. I think the math is 0,75 wounds inflicted on avreage ignoring armor saves. If you are planning to assault with several units try baiting overwatch with your weakest unit first. Aegis line with quad gun is something to consider.

 

Frag missile are good big daemon squads, so Devestators are a good option. (pretty much good vs all lists). Aegis line with quad gun should will do well vs any deep strike.

[galadrin]

Hi everyone,

 

I'm sorry to be a rules lawyer here, but as I read your post I hapened to have a C:CD open. As i read through it i noted that al three lesser tzeentch deamons have 1 wound and a 4++. Also note that flamers are not 23 points. they cost 2, 2/3 space marine actually. And for the last, on the deamons, since when do screamers have S 5 in cc? they are S 4. And they have melta bombs, but that's it, isn't it? So no ap: 2 I don't know what happened, but maybe you got cheeted on.

 

Oh and Zedrenael, I love Coteas as well. Oh and to remind you, plasma cannons can't fire at flyers, because as they are template weapons, they can't fire snap shots, hope i didn't read you're post wrong, but it looked like it implied using coteas for anti air.

 

Cheers

[IK Viper]

Yah the multiple small units thing was what I set up for, I had nothing on the board above a 6 man sqaud (Sang. Priest)

 

My Dev. Squad did pretty well but didn't last long, with no ruins on the table to hide in the top of they got Pink Horrored to death over 2 turns :-(

 

He had really good DSing for sure, all his units landed inside flamer range and did not mishap.

 

I like the Coteaz idea alot, I think I will be trying to work that in somewhere, thank you, how does the Banisher work, does the unit you fire at have to reroll inv. saves?

 

Of, about the overwatch, you have to declare ALL charges in before moving on into the fight sub phase, so your opponent gets to pick which unit to overwatch... late in the game I had nothing elft but 2 Sang. Guard squads a priest, and Dante and I basically had to assault the Flamers or be run down and flamed in my turn, I lost 3 Sang. Guard and a Sang. Priest (that whole squad) to OVERWATCH!!!!!!!!!! from 5 Flamers thats 195 points destroyed simply for the oppertunnity to get into CC with thoe guys

 

Hi everyone,

 

I'm sorry to be a rules lawyer here, but as I read your post I hapened to have a C:CD open. As i read through it i noted that al three lesser tzeentch deamons have 1 wound and a 4++. Also note that flamers are not 23 points. they cost 2, 2/3 space marine actually. And for the last, on the deamons, since when do screamers have S 5 in cc? they are S 4. And they have melta bombs, but that's it, isn't it? So no ap: 2 I don't know what happened, but maybe you got cheeted on.

 

Oh and Zedrenael, I love Coteas as well. Oh and to remind you, plasma cannons can't fire at flyers, because as they are template weapons, they can't fire snap shots, hope i didn't read you're post wrong, but it looked like it implied using coteas for anti air.

 

Cheers

 

You obviously do not have the Chaos Daemons update booklet ...

[Ushtarador]

Actually, I'm pretty sure you declare charge with a unit. He then decides to overwatch, then you move. Then declare charge with your next unit. If your first unit engages him in combat, he can't overwatch your second one anymore.

 

Also, moar FnP, it's better than nothing ^^ Or try to fit in some GK squad with warp quake, it should be impossible for him to DS in flamer range then.

[Zedrenael]

Oh and Zedrenael, I love Coteas as well. Oh and to remind you, plasma cannons can't fire at flyers, because as they are template weapons, they can't fire snap shots, hope i didn't read you're post wrong, but it looked like it implied using coteas for anti air.

 

I did not mean it as something for antiflyers. This is something purely for Daemons. If you want to shot down flyers use other things like missile launchers or Quad Gun not this unit. This unit is purely that Anti Deamon unit, but when it comes to non daemon games use it against heavy infantry and grouped units.

[Shaggy12009]

Hi everyone,

 

I'm sorry to be a rules lawyer here, but as I read your post I hapened to have a C:CD open. As i read through it i noted that al three lesser tzeentch deamons have 1 wound and a 4++. Also note that flamers are not 23 points. they cost 2, 2/3 space marine actually. And for the last, on the deamons, since when do screamers have S 5 in cc? they are S 4. And they have melta bombs, but that's it, isn't it? So no ap: 2 I don't know what happened, but maybe you got cheeted on.

 

Cheers

 

Check the white dwarf update from August I believe. It's the same insert that has the rules for the slaanesh chariots. Other than giving rules for new units, it also has updated rules for some units that make them go from meh to gross.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Daemons are the reaons I use IG with my tournament lists. Cheap screens, so that even if they deep strike well, at best they will slay a 60 pt squad of dudesmen, that's it. Then you'll also have a Raven and a Vendetta for shooting at FMC.

 

For your game described in OP, instead of deploying your "stuff right on the board edge in a line..." you should have clumped everything as tightly into a corner (or centrally) as possible, then choose one (or two if centrally deployed) sacrificial unit(s) to make a screen around them. The screen will die, but he will be unable to deepstrike close enough to affect your main body. Just make sure your main body is clumped 30" away from the Vindicator.

[IK Viper]

sounds like a plan Citidal Guy, I hate to just throw my hands up and accept an Alpha Strike but the options don't really get alot better, thank you for the insight, if I play him saturday it my give me a fighting chance,

 

any thoughts on split wave Flamers, he had 2 4 man squads in one wave, and a 9 man squad in another, either way something is going to get Flamed,

[Jorre]

If you have a storm raven in your list and the enemy has very little that can take out flyers always go 1st!

 

Going second vs demons is no longer an advantage as you cant reserve the entire army anymore.

 

Going first is important because your reserves will be coming in when he only has half his army on the board. Giving you more time to focus fire his more deadly units. If you go second he will have had 2 full turns to get his prefered half and his extra reserves on the table and by then you will be suffering from target saturation!

 

I know it seems like a waste doing nothing on your first turn, but its a better option than having to face the entire demon hoard at once. ALso if you roll bad on ur reserves you really are in trouble if you went 2nd

[Remtek]

Of, about the overwatch, you have to declare ALL charges in before moving on into the fight sub phase, so your opponent gets to pick which unit to overwatch... late in the game I had nothing elft but 2 Sang. Guard squads a priest, and Dante and I basically had to assault the Flamers or be run down and flamed in my turn, I lost 3 Sang. Guard and a Sang. Priest (that whole squad) to OVERWATCH!!!!!!!!!! from 5 Flamers thats 195 points destroyed simply for the oppertunnity to get into CC with thoe guys

 

He has to declare overwatch right after you declare charge, one unit at a time.

 

I'm no daemon player but if his just dropping the flamers next to you in turn one, i'm pretty sure his doing it wrong. 66% of scattering/mishaps. If he mishaps or scatters out of range, even partially his at a huge disadvantage.

[Jorre]

Of, about the overwatch, you have to declare ALL charges in before moving on into the fight sub phase, so your opponent gets to pick which unit to overwatch... late in the game I had nothing elft but 2 Sang. Guard squads a priest, and Dante and I basically had to assault the Flamers or be run down and flamed in my turn, I lost 3 Sang. Guard and a Sang. Priest (that whole squad) to OVERWATCH!!!!!!!!!! from 5 Flamers thats 195 points destroyed simply for the oppertunnity to get into CC with thoe guys

 

He has to declare overwatch right after you declare charge, one unit at a time.

 

I'm no daemon player but if his just dropping the flamers next to you in turn one, i'm pretty sure his doing it wrong. 66% of scattering/mishaps. If he mishaps or scatters out of range, even partially his at a huge disadvantage.

 

 

Sorry but this is just not true anymore, especially not with flamers and here is why

 

1. The mishap table is far more forgiving now and only destroys your unit 1/6 instead of 1/3

2. Flamers are usually a small unit and have a very small deepstrike foot print. The chances of a mishap are minimal.

3. Flamers are now more than ever a throw away unit. There price has been significantly reduced so loosing them will not cripple a demon player.

4. They are a unit you must shoot at (Nobody wants to get hit by overwatch hits from a flamer unit when you attempt to assault them) Tying them up in combat with a weak unit is not an option anymore so you must deal with them or they will make you pay. This means other scary demon units that you also don't want to assault are not getting shot at.

 

In my expeirence demon players have no issue at throwing small units of flamers straight at your lines and why should they its a brillinat idea they are a very killy and cheap expendable unit that forces their opponent to react to them. Which is exactly what you want if your a demon player!

[Zedrenael]

You need to have either just as expendable units such as 50 point guard squads or just grit and bear it. Flamers are a problem and my tactic of spacing is usually effective to lose 1-3 models in the deep strike that leaves me with 7 to counter strike this unit. I also happen to play on a lot of multi level terrain which helps just as much.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

You need to have either just as expendable units such as 50 point guard squads or just grit and bear it. Flamers are a problem and my tactic of spacing is usually effective to lose 1-3 models in the deep strike that leaves me with 7 to counter strike this unit. I also happen to play on a lot of multi level terrain which helps just as much.

^Agree with this.

 

One trick I've used is to use a Cheap 10man Guardsmen squad (or BA Scouts if you want to stay 'pure') can charge the Flamers first-- they'll take the damage, then the RAS/SG/DC/etc can get in there for 'free' and tear them a new one! Because of course, they are garbage in melee (thank god). If the Flamers forgo overwatch against the cheap unit then they can no longer overwatch anyways against any other subsequent chargers. Once something is basing them, that's it! Can't overwatch anymore.

 

Dreadnoughts are great for this tactic normally because could care less about Overwatch, except in the case of Flamers of Tzeentch ( :lol: )

[Remtek]

Sorry but this is just not true anymore, especially not with flamers and here is why

 

1. The mishap table is far more forgiving now and only destroys your unit 1/6 instead of 1/3

2. Flamers are usually a small unit and have a very small deepstrike foot print. The chances of a mishap are minimal.

3. Flamers are now more than ever a throw away unit. There price has been significantly reduced so loosing them will not cripple a demon player.

4. They are a unit you must shoot at (Nobody wants to get hit by overwatch hits from a flamer unit when you attempt to assault them) Tying them up in combat with a weak unit is not an option anymore so you must deal with them or they will make you pay. This means other scary demon units that you also don't want to assault are not getting shot at.

 

In my expeirence demon players have no issue at throwing small units of flamers straight at your lines and why should they its a brillinat idea they are a very killy and cheap expendable unit that forces their opponent to react to them. Which is exactly what you want if your a demon player!

 

Them being cheap does not make them throw away units, it just makes them extremly good per point. Why would play a unit less optimal because they got cheaper? They still move and advance extremly well. It's pretty much risk/reward which makes how you play them situanional like everything else. I can't really see any merit to dropping them vs a Jumper list. Sure sac them if you have to destroy something that counters your strategy, but in 6th they are just to strong to suicide without a good reason.

 

Like OP said these were 3 big units of 9? not not small ones 3x generally? And it appears they did not scatter much. If he lost half his army round 1 i'd chalk that up to being on the short en of the random number generator. Deepstriking full flamer units will generally be awkward.

[Remtek]

Guard squad idea seems good. I like the idea of aegis line/dev's included in jump lists aswell though i think cheap scoring stuff would be better :P

[IK Viper]

I did some research into the ol GK codex and I think Coteaz is a great option obviously, but also if you have the option to go first a simple Strike Squad has Warp Quake that can basically nullify the Alpha Strike option, once that is blunted I feel pretty confidant that I could gun the flamers down at range,

 

Is it in a Daemon player's best interests to go first if given the chance? I would think so, thus putting my Warp Quake deffense idea down to a roll of for turn, though I could obviously fall back on the bubble wrap idea if I fail.