Initiative, Step, and Set modifiers

[Lysere]

These topics seem to resurface on random threads here and there and detract from the original topics that they come up in. In an effort to stop that I decided to throw down the rules here and put an end to this off topic question and make it a topic of it's own.

 

The issue keeps coming up about: Initiative, initiative step, grenades, psychic powers, and the rule "Unwieldy."

 

So first the ground work. Unwieldy as we all know specifically says that a model wielding a weapon with this rule always strike at Initiative Step 1. The question used to come up about when do you pile-in then, at your normal Initiative and then swing at step 1, or pile-in and swing at step 1?

 

GW was nice enough to include an answer to the question of when a model piles in and swings with unwieldy weapons.

 

"It Piles In and fights at Initiative Step 1." - GW (Emphasis my own)

 

Unlike with grenades and the swinging with multiple weapons, unwieldy makes no mention of Initiative. So powers like Quicksilver or Quickening do not affect swings from it, ever. This is because Initiative and Initiative Step are not one and the same. For starters there is no value for Initiative step for most units. Models simply swing when they reach their Initiative, however if a model moved through terrain, or is using an unwieldy weapon, then you will swing at Initiative Step 1, regardless of your actual Initiative. Abilities like Quicksilver and Quickening only affect Initiative.

 

Initiative =/= Initiative Step, but unless you have a weapon or rule that is changing this such as unwieldy then normally Initiative Step would = Initiative.

 

What about the techmarine with servoharness?

What about him? The FAQ was pretty clear on that one, he swings at his normal Initiative value with his normal attacks, and does his pile in then, but then swings again at Initiative Step 1 with his harness.

 

But then grenades don't work?

To be honest, if you read the rules for RAW they technically never worked, plasma grenades were FAQ'd to be the same as assault grenades, and the issue with difficult terrain and grenades technically isn't right yet. Does this mean people will play them that way? Probably not, but you could actually argue that one.

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

I know not everyone reads rules the same way, but I think it's time this stopped cropping up all over and was laid to rest for good. So those of you who do or don't agree, please lay your interpretation's down here.

[pyroknight]

I realize now that RAW never really worked, and that the FAQs proved that applying common sense and the “most important rule” is really greater than the written rules themselves. Ultimately you should do whatever the hell you want so long as you opponent agrees to it.

 

For me, this is what I think makes the most sense:

Your pile in move is at the same step you swing at. Halbreds, quickening, unwieldy, or anything doesn’t matter. Just pile in right before you are going to swing.

The Techmarine and units that swing at 2 different times are covered in the FAQ.

 

For assault grenades, if you charge through cover you fight at your normal initiative. If anything else modifies your initiative, use that modified initiative. Assault grenades should work just like they did in 5th, despite the poor wording in the rulebook.

[Azekai]

Agreed, Lysere. Just do what is fair and what makes sense, because warp knows that GW can't keep track of all their rules, and they do not take the game super seriously.

[Gentlemanloser]

Beat me to reopening this topic. ;)

 

Initiative equals Initiative Step. Please forgive me, I've not got time to C&P the relevant parts of the rules at the moment.

 

Difficult Terrain

 

DT doesn't apply an Initiative Penalty. It only makes you attack at Step 1.

 

Assault/Plasma Grenades

 

They negate any Initiative Penalty to charging through DT.

 

So, either the Grenades have no effect, or the Step 1 penalty *is* and Initiative Penalty. I'll come back to this.

 

(It's interesting to note that Plasma Grenades has the 'Step' removed, and made equal to Assault Grenades. It would seem, unlikely, that GW would intentionally amend the Grenade that was working, to actually break it. Which is what has happened if Initiative is seperate to Initiative Step)

 

Pile in

 

You Pile in once, at your highest Initiative Value.

 

Pile In & Unwieldy

 

You Ple in at I1.

 

This can only work, if your Initiative Value is 1. Therefore the Unwieldy Penalty of making you attack at Step 1 does so, by modifying your Initiative Value to 1.

 

Steps

 

Steps are nothing more than sub categories in the Fight rules. They range from 10 to 1, and you count down them to see when a mini acts. When the Step number equals the minis Initiative Value, it is allowed to act.

 

 

 

Prior to the FAQ, Plasma Grenades allowed you to attack at your normal Step. This has been removed. And a SM with a Power Fist Piled in at I4 and attacked at Step 1.

 

Now, as you pile in at the same step you attack, this can only happen if your Initiative Value is the same as the Step you attack in. Which is what the rules state.

 

This makes the penalty to DT an Initiative Penalty, as the DT makes you attack at Step 1, by modifying your Initiative Value to 1. Which allows both Grenades to work, as they negate this Initiative Penalty and allow you to attack at your 'normal' Step.

 

The Unwieldy Penalty is also an Initiative Penalty, which is why you pile in on the same Step as you attack.

 

 

Ruling otherwise leaves you in situations where (for example only) DCA charging through DT pile in at I6 but attack at I1. (Edit: And now both Plasma and Assault grenades do nothing)

[Lysere]

Remember that unwieldy is an advanced rule, and when a conflict between an advanced and basic rule, (such as the rules for pile in) arise the advanced rule wins. Also Initiative step is only determined by your Initiative, they are not equal, the FAQ simply clarifies that you swing and pile in at I1 with unwieldy weapons. This doesn't lower the model's I stat, as you still sweep and break away the same, but you swing and pile in slower.

 

Yes like I said this leaves grenades in that grey area of do they work or not, but two things, 1 grenades are an advanced rule so you can argue they override the normal rule, or that by RAW they wouldn't work, but can be played as working. (After all what's the point of having them if they do nothing)

 

If something like quicksilver could override hammers it would need to say something like, "The unit strikes at I10." It doesn't though, it says, "The unit is I10." Initiative is a basic rule, and can and will be overridden by advanced rules such as unwieldy. Quicksilver has no strength as a codex rule because it only changes a stat for the unit, and that stat falls under basic rules.

[Gentlemanloser]

Remember that unwieldy is an advanced rule, and when a conflict between an advanced and basic rule, (such as the rules for pile in) arise the advanced rule wins.

 

That is a very good point.

 

But where does Unwieldy conflict with Pile In?

 

Also Initiative step is only determined by your Initiative

 

This is the crux of the issue. Of the two instances in the entire rules where Initiative Steps are modified directly (Unwieldy/DT), GW do not explain clearly that this is caused by the minis Initiative being reduced to 1.

 

You could accuse this of assumption on my part, but this is the only way that all the CC rules work, and work together. Anything else throws spanners in the works.

 

This doesn't lower the model's I stat, as you still sweep and break away the same

 

As noted, those tests are always taken on unmodified values. So a SM with a Power Fist would still test at I4, regardless.

 

After all what's the point of having them if they do nothing

 

More importantly, why would GW deliberatly change the Grenade that was working, and break it?

 

Charging through DT doesn't impose any sort of Initiative Penalty, unless attacking at Step 1 is an Initiative Penalty.

 

If a unit of DCA under the effects of Quicksilver charge through Difficult Terrain, what Steps do they Pile In and Attack at?

[Lysere]

Remember that unwieldy is an advanced rule, and when a conflict between an advanced and basic rule, (such as the rules for pile in) arise the advanced rule wins.

 

That is a very good point.

 

But where does Unwieldy conflict with Pile In?

Unwieldy conflicts with pile in because the rules for pile in says the model piles in and strike at their Initiative. Unwieldy says that the model piles in and strikes at Step 1. Therefore the model will always strike at I Step 1. The rules for pile in that say the model swings at their normal Initiative, (For example, 4) is replaced for the models with unwieldy weapons with the model piles in and strikes at step 1.

 

Also Initiative step is only determined by your Initiative

 

This is the crux of the issue. Of the two instances in the entire rules where Initiative Steps are modified directly (Unwieldy/DT), GW do not explain clearly that this is caused by the minis Initiative being reduced to 1.

 

You could accuse this of assumption on my part, but this is the only way that all the CC rules work, and work together. Anything else throws spanners in the works.

This one as you said is the crux of the issue, and can be read several ways.

 

After all what's the point of having them if they do nothing

 

More importantly, why would GW deliberatly change the Grenade that was working, and break it?

 

Charging through DT doesn't impose any sort of Initiative Penalty, unless attacking at Step 1 is an Initiative Penalty.

 

If a unit of DCA under the effects of Quicksilver charge through Difficult Terrain, what Steps do they Pile In and Attack at?

 

The reason they did so was the rules created a difference between the two allowing for more then one interpretation. With them now the same they work the same. Also being forced to swing at Initiative step 1 can be considered a penalty, especially because it was caused by charging through terrain. The grenades allow the model to ignore the penalty even though they charged through terrain.

 

I understand that arguing one way can make grenades useless, however if we all agree that grenades work, and that Initiative and Initiative step are one and the same then you still do not get I 10 hammers, that is until you get your hands on a psychic power that says you may strike at I 10. There are no rules however that let you do that, so unwieldy will override all psychic powers, fancy wargear, and artifacts. This is because all of those make a model have an Initiative of 10. As I said this is a basic rule, in fact it is one of the most basic rules of the game. The book is also very clear as to what holds superiority, and that is advanced rules. So even though a squad of quicksilver Paladins with hammers will have an Initiative of 10, even through difficult terrain, unwieldy will always make them strike at step 1. The FAQ did nothing but solidify this by adding the caveat that they will also pile in at that time, not at 10.

[Gentlemanloser]

however if we all agree that grenades work, and that Initiative and Initiative step are one and the same then you still do not get I 10 hammers

 

Of course you do. ;)

 

If Initiative and Initiative Step are the same, then you have one rule setting them to 10, and one to 1. One's a Codex rule and the other is an Advanced rule.

 

Codex rule takes precendence.

 

All it needs is for GW to FAQ that Unwieldy takes precendence over Quicksilver (and Banshee Masks, as while Banshee's themselves were fixed, an Archon can still purchase both a Mask and a Power Axe), and this goes away.

 

Then we can all run the simple ruleset of Initiative == Initiative Step, without any, cheesy exploits, to worry about.

 

Also being forced to swing at Initiative step 1 can be considered a penalty

 

Sure it's a pentaly.

 

But is it a Penalty to Initiative?

 

The new 'nade rules are;

 

don't suffer the penalty to thier Initiative

 

So is being forced to attack at Step 1, a penalty to your Initiative? If so, how?

[Lysere]

however if we all agree that grenades work, and that Initiative and Initiative step are one and the same then you still do not get I 10 hammers

 

Of course you do. :D

 

If Initiative and Initiative Step are the same, then you have one rule setting them to 10, and one to 1. One's a Codex rule and the other is an Advanced rule.

 

Codex rule takes precendence.

 

All it needs is for GW to FAQ that Unwieldy takes precendence over Quicksilver (and Banshee Masks, as while Banshee's themselves were fixed, an Archon can still purchase both a Mask and a Power Axe), and this goes away.

 

Then we can all run the simple ruleset of Initiative == Initiative Step, without any, cheesy exploits, to worry about.

 

There in is where you are reading too much into the rules. Every model has an I stat. Every codex gives them one, Psychic powers, and banshees masks boost this to 10. But piling in and attacking at your I stat is a basic rule. As long as the model has no advanced rules in place then this works fine. However as I said unwieldy is an advanced rule, the normal chain of events do not take place, you do not get I 10, you swing at step 1.

 

There is no conflict with the codex since the bonus is still in effect, but it does not take precedence over unwieldy. Like I said, if quicksilver were to read, "Models under the effect of this power will strike at I 10," then there would be a conflict, and it would take precedence over the unwieldy rule. This is NOT the case, the unit simple IS I 10. Basic rules can not override an advanced rule, ever, and before you say quicksilver is an advanced rule yes it is, but the buff it provides is not. It simply modifies an existing stat. If you don't have frags, but use quickening or quicksilver, you don't magically ignore the penalty for charging through terrain, in the same way you are not exempt from the unwieldy rule.

 

In fact they list the only two reasons you would ignore unwieldy. As terminators are never walkers or monstrous creatures, they do not ignore unwieldy.

[Gentlemanloser]

As long as the model has no advanced rules in place then this works fine.

 

If the conflict resolution was Advanced > Codex > Basic, this would be correct.

 

but it does not take precedence over unwieldy

 

Of course it does. Page 7. :D

 

and before you say quicksilver is an advanced rule yes it is, but the buff it provides is not.

 

Ah! This is where you're mistaken.

 

Quicksilver, including all it's effects, is a Codex rule. Not basic or advanced.

[cielaq]

Well, if Quicksilver (being a Codex rule) would ignore Unwieldy, then my fist-wielding model would also ignore it, as his I stat is also a Codex rule, after all. :)

Ok, we can argue all currnet models' stats are in the rulebook, but when we have a new model (in a new Codex), then it should work this way.

[Gentlemanloser]

You'd have to argue that the stat printed in the codex is a modifer to his profile, that 'sets' his profile value at a different amount.

 

As you obviously can't (His profile can't modify his profile...), it's not a modifier that conflicts with Unwieldy's 'set to 1'. :)

[cielaq]

It's not a modifier - rulebook says he should strike at I1 (Unwieldy), while my Codex says he should strike at I5 (or whatever it is). We have conflict, and Codex>Rulebook. :)

[Gentlemanloser]

Unwieldy is a modifier to the minis' Profile.

 

It isn't an addition or multiplication, but a 'set' modifier. It takes the value on the units Profile (provided by the Codex) and modifies it by setting it to 1.

 

This isn't a conflict with the Codex, as the Codex profile isn't a modifier to the Profile. It is the Profile.

 

The conflict arises, when there are multiple rules that modify the Codex given Profile.

[cielaq]

The thing is, Unwieldy is not modifier of profile - your model still has his "base" I for all the rules other than I-step.

[Gentlemanloser]

That's if I Step is different to I Value.

 

And if it is, you'd Pile in on your I Value (as per the rules), and not your I Step.

 

The *only* way for the FAQ Clarification (it's not an Errata tot he rules) to work within the current rules is if the change to I Step happens becuase I Value has been modified.

 

Which is the whole point...

 

And why it conflicts with things like Quicksilver.

 

Edit: Was thinking of my wording on the way home from work. :lol:

 

I hope this explains things clearly!

 

 

First of all, Initiative Step isn't a statistic, isn't a value and isn't anything to do with an individual mini itself. All they are are sub-phases from 10 down to 1 in a CC turn.

 

And Initiative Step always equals the minis Initiative Value.

 

 

Not unexpectidly, GW has written these rules as clear as mud, and thier two largest failures are to clearly explain that 'strike' really means 'act', or that anything that modifies when you 'strike' does so by modifying you Initiative Value. This has been clarified by the recent FAQs.

 

The FAQs aren't Errata, the CC rules haven't been changed. What the FAQs have done is explain the correct outcome that should happen when the CC rules are used.

 

A mini with an Unwieldy weapon Piles in and attacks at Step 1.

 

But the use of CC rules must still reach this outcome. And there's only one possible way to do so.

 

If Initiative Step is a seperate stat/value that itself can be modified, a couple of the FAQ clairifcations are either wrong, or break the rules.

 

Why would I say this? A SM with a Powerfist is I4, but 'strikes' at I1. If Step is seperate and can be individually modified, then follwing the CC rules, the SM would Pile in at 4, but attack at 1. This outcome has been clarified to be wrong.

 

So, we follow the CC rules to reach the right outcome.

 

We start counting down the Steps, from 10. When we reach 4, we know this isn't a Step the mini can 'act' in, so we ignore this Step and continue to count down. When we reach 1, the mini gets to Pile In and Attack. This is only a viable action if the Minis Initiative equals the Step. As per the CC rules.

 

For another example, take a GK Nemesis Force Halberd.

 

Prior to the FAQs it was accepted that the NFH doesn't modify Initaive, but rather the Step seperately. This can be shown as wrong now by two FAQ clarifications.

 

First a mini Piles In once per round, "at your highest Step". The Highest Step a GK with a NFH can 'act' in is Step 6. So they also Pile in then as well. And by the rules, the only way this is possible is if thier Initaitive Value equalled 6 as well.

 

In addition look at the GK FAQ entry on the NFH. Not only does the question state the bonus is +2 Initiative (and not a modifiery to Step alone) the answer clarifies this. If the NFH modified 'Step', and had no impact on the mini's Initiative Value, then the answer given is incorret. The NFH would strike at 3, and the multiple modifiers rule has no effect (Initiative is 'set' to 1 first, Step become 1, then NFH increases that to 3, as it's a seperate stat). The only way for the FAQ clarification to be correct, and achiveable thorugh the rules, is if the NFH modifies the Step the mini attacks in by modifying the Initiative Value.

 

Then it becomes, as per the mutiple modifers rule, +2 to 6, then set to 1.

 

Without Step remaining just a sub-phase, then Assault and Plasma Grenades don't work, as DT doesn't impart any Initiative Penalty.

 

As both of these were errata-d, in order to work, the DT penalty making the charger attack (and pile in) at Step 1 must be because their effective Initiative Value has been penalised.

 

 

All these taken together highlight *how* the CC rules are supposed to work, and try to clear the confusion left by GW due to poor writing.

 

Initiative Step isn't a value that can be modified in any fashion, it's just the sub phase where a mini can act. Forcing an mini to act in a specific sub phase step is achieved int he rules by modifying that minis Initiative Value.

 

Sorry for the long post!

[Lysere]

Do not apologize for the long post, it's nice to actually see where you are getting the idea of I 10 hammers, because let's face it, it's a crazy and broken idea that is easily condemned. The issue is as I see it, a model can be force to act outside it's normal Initiative value because of DT, Wargear, and most importantly, Unwieldy.

 

To clarify this let me remind you that the rule that codex > BRB is ONLY if there is a conflict, and as I said there is no such thing.

 

You use quicksilver on your turn. Your squad of hammers now is I 10, instead of the basic I 4. According to the basic rules you would then 'act' in step 10 because that is equal to the models Initiative. The basic rule lays down the rules for piling in and attacking in CC, as I said however unwieldy specifically says that the model swings, (and as clarified by the FAQ piles in) when step 1 is reached.

 

I can see how this looks like a change to Initiative, after all you would normally act at I 10 since quicksilver has made you thus, remember though, it is an advanced rule, we do not follow the basic rule where it conflicts. The model essentially loses access to Initiative steps 10-2. It isn't reduced to I 1, if it was it would say that, it is forced to act at only one step of the 10 that are normally presented. Basic verse advanced works like this.

 

Basic rule tells me there are 10 steps for models to swing at.

A model swings at the step equal to it's I value. (Conflict)

A model piles in and attacks when that I Step is then reached.

 

Unwieldy:

Tells me that my model can only swing when step 1 is reached. (Conflict)

It will also pile in at that time.

 

As a conflict arises between it at the second line I typed, that line is ignored in favor of the unwieldy rule.

It does not conflict with Quicksilver, it simply removes the section of the rule where a model gets an I step equal to it's I value and sets the I step to 1 by default.

Quicksilver would only overrule unwieldy if those two rules were in direct conflict. However this is a permissive rule set, we have never been told that our I step and I are the same, models are only given permission to swing when an I step equal to their I value is reached, and that has been overruled by an advanced rule.

 

Let me ask you, if you had a squad under the affects of quicksilver, and they had no grenades, would you claim they go first by charging through DT?

[Gentlemanloser]

Let me ask you, if you had a squad under the affects of quicksilver, and they had no grenades, would you claim they go first by charging through DT?

 

Currently, yes.

 

because let's face it, it's a crazy and broken idea that is easily condemned.

 

:P

 

GW are slowly fixing thier mistakes, and all it needs is some sort of Errata on thier part. I expect it will be addressed, at some point. But probably only after someone uses this at Nova or the like. :P

 

Basic rule tells me there are 10 steps for models to swing at.

A model swings at the step equal to it's I value. (Conflict)

A model piles in and attacks when that I Step is then reached.

 

Unwieldy:

Tells me that my model can only swing when step 1 is reached. (Conflict)

It will also pile in at that time.

 

This isn't correct.

 

The conflict isn't at "swings at the step equal to it's I Value".

 

Also, the Unwiedly rule doesn't tell you you pile in at that time. It's not part of the rule. The FAQ Clarification explains what should happen, but doesn't change Unwieldy in any fashion.

 

The conflict is;

 

10 Steps.

Count down until Step = Initiative

(check minis Initiative)

Codex rule sets I to I10, BRB rule sets I to 1 <conflict>

Which step does the mini act in?

 

If Quicksilver ( I keep calling it quickening /sigh I'm not even a big Highlander fan!) doesn't effect the Step the mini acts at, then when you reach Step 10, the mini is allowed to act, and *should* pile in.

 

But that's incorrect.

 

Either the BRB CC rules are wrong, the FAQ clarification is wrong, or the Initiative Value of the mini isn't 10.

 

A question in return. ;)

 

When does a GK using a NFH pile in?

[Venemox]

The thing is, Unwieldy is not modifier of profile - your model still has his "base" I for all the rules other than I-step.

 

This... Example: Commander Dante might be forced to swing (and pile in) at I step 1 with his Axe Mortalis (thanks to the new BA FAQ -.-), BUT he will Hit and Run using his I value of 7.

 

Quickening and other similar effects alter the I value to a set number. In this case 10. That value then gets subsequntly ignored when the Unweildy gear tells it to strike (and now pile in) at I step 1. It does not modify it's I vaule to 1. It's still an I 10 model, and will use the 10 value for all I tests (until the effect expires).

[Gentlemanloser]

This... Example:

 

BRB states Characteristic Tests are made using unmodified Stat Values.

 

Initiative Step has no effect on these.

 

That value then gets subsequntly ignored when the Unweildy gear tells it to strike (and now pile in) at I step 1. It does not modify it's I vaule to 1. It's still an I 10 model, and will use the 10 value for all I tests (until the effect expires).

 

Please explain how the rules make that happen. Especially why the Mini doesn't Pile In at Step 10. Again, the FAQ isn't a rule amendment/errata, it's clarification on the correct outcome of the rules.

[Gentlemanloser]

Edit;

 

Also, take a look at the GK FAQ for NFH.

 

The NFH lets a mini 'strike at +2 Initiative'.

 

The FAQ mentions;

 

Do they still get the +2 Initiative from the Halberd

 

Not do they strike at +2 Steps.

 

Also see my explaination of that FAQ answer above.

 

Now, does a NFH modify Initiative Value, or only Initiative Step?

[puffin]

Gentlemanloser, your problem (still) is that you can't accept that the RAW in this area does NOT stand up to the level of scrutiny you are trying to apply. The rules are quite clear in their intent (especially with the clarifications of the FAQ) yet you are still here trolling with your ultra-RAW interpretations that not only make no sense, are clearly wrong.

 

Hint: Games Workshop don't care if they say Initiative when they mean Initiative Step (or vice versa). This isn't a legal contract or a ruleset that has strict definitions. You need to apply context and reading comprehension to understand which meaning of the word is intended in a given situation.

 

 

Again, the assault section works like this:

 

1. Each miniature fights in one (or more) initiative steps.

 

2. A miniature piles in in the first initiative step they fight at (and no others).

 

3. You determine which step a miniature fights at by looking at their modified initiative (i.e. their Initiative stat +- any initiative modifiers or "strikes at +x" modifiers). However, this can be overridden by a special rule that specifically states which step you fight in (e.g Unwieldy = step 1). This is possible because the Unwieldy advanced rule overrides the rule "determine your initiative step by looking at the model's modified initiative", not by changing the initiative of the model.

 

This was all quite clear from reading the rules in the first place, and even clearer now that they have clarified them using the FAQs.

 

=][= deleted by the Inquisition =][=

[Toasterfree]

=][= deleted by Inquisition =][=

 

while i have been quite for a while on the OR thread, i will add in that everyone else, besides GL is correct in this matter. there is no conflict when striking with a hammer. it will be I 1 even if it had ASF. simply the model has ASL and there is nothing in 40k that says if you have both ASL and ASF then you strike at normal init. you ASL with hammer PERIOD.

[DarkGuard]

Just because we don't agree doesn't mean we're trolling. And when we expect someone to be trolling we report it to the mods, not confront it ourselves. I'm going to close this thread until I have the time to properly review some of the more recent posts.

 

OK, so I've now had the time to read the recent posts, prune those that weren't constructive, and remove the snide and inflammatory remarks from those that were otherwise contributing to the thread. I shouldn't have to remind you guys to not get personal in these debates. Yes we will disagree with each other, but that's no reason to start the snide and rude comments. If you do really disagree with someone else just agree to disagree and stay away. If you think someone is trolling or flaming you, use the REPORT button and let Grey Mage or I deal with it.

 

This thread is now being reopened. Any more snide comments will see this thread locked again and warnings will most likely be issued to those responsible. You've been warned.