Morticon Posted September 26, 2012 Author Share Posted September 26, 2012 Full Tourney Breakdown and results on last post of PG 5. Sorry, didn't notice it on the pictures... It seems like you didn't miss Corbulo (and his re-roll) this tournament, so has this experience changed your view point on him? Jolemai, I believe there are lists I use where they're much more based on finesse and a scalpel like approach to play. In lists like that, he's almost a necessity, because I need stuff to go right when they do. In this list, it wasnt really the case as its just simple weight of numbers. Im not charging, for the most part, so dont have to worry about failed charges. I'm not making crucial break/LD checks, so dont need to worry about that either. Also, I didnt play a wide variety of opponents. Had I played more SM/IG or mech based stuff, those one or two pen rolls, or jink/evade/cover etc could have been very, very crucial. However, that being said, I would have had a much easier game had i been able to reroll a raven in game 4. I think i was fortunate to not "need" him this tourney, though a lot of that I think had to do with the playstyle of the list. 2. Hurricane bolters. This was my biggest surprise. I resent having to pay 30points for these, but wow am I glad that I did. These guys also won me games. The biggest issue I have with the raven I usually use (TLMM, TLLC) is that after the BS missiles are gone, im shooting 2 high S shots a turn, and its almost useless. So, for the first time ever, I decided to try the sponsons. I don't know how i'm going to find the 30points in my list for them from now on - but I will do everything in my power TO do so. I always said so, nice to see you agree now ;) Still despise that 30 points :) but they were really, really good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 More questions! I know you're still waiting on the rankings, but how fared the chap who was at the top with the GK Dragowing list? If he did turn up, how did he fill the holes in his force? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted September 26, 2012 Author Share Posted September 26, 2012 More questions! I know you're still waiting on the rankings, but how fared the chap who was at the top with the GK Dragowing list? If he did turn up, how did he fill the holes in his force? He did turn up! But not with Draigo. He was totally thrown by our last game, and didn't want to play a list with "obvious holes". Personally, I think he would have done REALLY well in this tourney, even with the lack of anti-air. He played a Nurgle Chaos list with Epidemus ally. He got caned sadly. His worst tourney performance ever. (rankings are up now! :) Page 5 last post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Oh right. Thought that was the tournament rankings and not the SA rankings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted September 26, 2012 Author Share Posted September 26, 2012 Oh right. Thought that was the tournament rankings and not the SA rankings... Sorry, maybe getting my wires crossed. The pg5 stuff is the tourney rankings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orogen Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Hey Mort- thanks for chronicling your maulings! Great read and really informative/helpful to those of us who don't have time to playtest much. Two questions for you- After rolling the pure BA list, what are your thoughts on allies? Was there something missing you could fill in? Cheap troops, big guns, etc. Second, did squeezing in 2 ravens hamper your list at this point level? Obviously, the result speak for itself but there's always something to be learned. With you saying quadgun wasn't up to snuff for flyer defense, what are some other good options? Double Raven going the way of Mephiston (ie necessary/just better)? Thanks again, and congrats! -Orogen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zedrenael Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 I did enjoy the read here and it has given me the inspiration in trying to bring back my razorback spam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted September 26, 2012 Author Share Posted September 26, 2012 Two questions for you-After rolling the pure BA list, what are your thoughts on allies? Was there something missing you could fill in? Cheap troops, big guns, etc. Second, did squeezing in 2 ravens hamper your list at this point level? Obviously, the result speak for itself but there's always something to be learned. With you saying quadgun wasn't up to snuff for flyer defense, what are some other good options? Double Raven going the way of Mephiston (ie necessary/just better)? Thanks again, and congrats! -Orogen Ahoy matey. Cheers for the shout out! I think allies are great. I think they're now really a part of 40k, and I believe in the next few years we'll see a move away from people being iffy or precious about allies and also moving away from bemoaning other armies. Just a hunch though. I think at 1750 the list was optimized. If I was playing 1850, I would have put an SM razor in there instead of a BA one along with a nullzone libby. The nice thing about the BA and this list is that for 160points you get a fast, shooty, mobile scoring unit. You cant really cover all those bases elsewhere. Resilient - sure, but then not mobile, and unprotected from daemonic assaults. Also, the second you put in elements, you have to take out other things. So, I really felt I had hit an optimum balance for this particular style. To answer the Raven question- not at all. It was a saving grace in fact. The cost of the ravens + meph was offset by cheap troops that fulfilled a synergised role of shooting support and scoring. The ravens were really stars of the game as they acted as both the delivery system for the dread, or as the gunboats vs. enemy flying creatures. I think the quad is an excellent addition to one's anti-air arsenal, but if it's the only thing a player has to combat air attacks, then they're in trouble. There were loads of lists with 2 or more fliers - many with 3. One guy had 5 Cron fliers, another had 2 Vendettas, 2 ravens, yet another had 3 vendettas and a raven. Then of course there were two daemon armies with four FMCs. I think some options are: IG allies - either hydras, or vendettas. BA Ravens. Dev squads with prescience (but even then, still iffy). The game is SO different now. I think armies that don't factor in this part of the game are going to struggle a lot at mixed tourney play. If you take a look at the standings though in the SA nationals 1st - 2 fliers. 2nd - 3 fliers 3rd - 1 FMC (this was the odd one out, he actually got VERY lucky in his final game) 4th - 4 Fliers 5th - 2 FMCs The thing is that I believe tourney play is going to be opened up a lot more list wise. Finding a balance with BA is actually very, very difficult. I havent considered looking for balance with other Marine lists, but I assume it may be as bad if not worse. Fliers get expensive, and take away from your core list. Especially if theyre allies. As for necessary vs better- i believe too much of the answer to that question relies on local meta. If people arent all flyer nuts, then it wont be that much of an issue. Same with Meph. If people are used to combating him from day one, and build to kill him, then maybe no. But, if I had to do the same tourney again, there's probably nothing beyond a Raven weapon swap I would change. In fact, correction, there is nothing besides that that I would change. Higher/lower points level, different story. I did enjoy the read here and it has given me the inspiration in trying to bring back my razorback spam. Small note on that. I believe that although vehicles can be glance-frakked to death, I think they retain their full capability longer and as a result are actually a little better in some instances. I think we may soon see a strong gravitation towards mixed mech lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Would you drop a Raven, bring in an Ally and go for a Stormtalon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted September 26, 2012 Author Share Posted September 26, 2012 Would you drop a Raven, bring in an Ally and go for a Stormtalon? The reason I poo-pooed the quad earlier is on account of AV12 needing a 6 to pen. With AV11 on the talon, you're looking at 4+ to glance, and then 5 or 6 to pen. Not too tough from 4 hits. Also, the Talon has 2 HP :P Also, the talon is 155 points with decent upgrades. I would never play it with HBs. So, only 45 points cheaper than the Raven. I actually had built a list a short while back with the Talon in it, but once I realised the points difference, and what each thing brought to the table, I couldnt bring myself to pay for it. In short, if I do what you're suggesting, I only free up 45 points. Max 75 points with Hurricane bolters on the Raven. So, i'm left pondering, what can i add to the list for those points that will be more beneficial than the raven? That's what it boiled down to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixestohit Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Tidy result there, well done! Seems razors still work, as ever, in numbers. I think the problem people have been having with transports is that they run 1 or 2 and expect them to survive. Great bat reps though, and enjoy your winnings! (which codex and boxed set is that btw?) James. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted September 26, 2012 Author Share Posted September 26, 2012 Great bat reps though, and enjoy your winnings! (which codex and boxed set is that btw?) Cheers! Was a GK dex, and box of assault marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixestohit Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Very nice! The swords a good one too, something to be proud of! James. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Admetus Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Nice trophy! Now I have sword envy... mine isn't that awesome... +EDIT+ It also worries me that I could recognise that as the GK codex despite not actually owning one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixestohit Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 It worries me that I've played against grey knights about 8 times in the last 6 months and couldn't recognise it... EDIT: As every one of those games has been "memorable" James. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Congratulations!! Great job on all the wins! Rather interesting to see rulebook missions in a Tournament--- Almost never see random-game-length in a tournament setting either. Also rather crazy that you only played against 2 codices haha. I've come to the same conclusion about Ravens--- my original theories about TLLC being better than TLAC has been tempered with playtesting as well. Once the Bloodstrikes are gone, I've really noticed the lack of damage output. Also, by Turn 4 most targets which need Lascannon-attention tend to be taken care of (Meph or Fists or Melta). Once the decision to take TLAC is made, then the Hurricanes become a more attractive option as well to complement the wounding output. As far as the community's comments about 'Blood Angel Mechanized' being excellent... I'd hesitate to make such a quick judgement. GK Mech, IG Mech and even SW Mech will beat BA Mech all day long. BA Mech is now the weakest of the Mech-armies, IMO. The fact that Morticon won with it in 6th Ed is an attribute to his skill, not the List. Also, Mort knew the meta he was going to face and was able to optimize for it. His gut feelings for the meta were correct and so he didn't face any Top-Tier Shooting lists such as Crowe Purifier spam, Coteaz Henchman Psyback spam, IG Plasmavet spam, or LongFangs/Razorbacks spam. 6th Edition has meta-fear for Mech lists, and so Morticon counted on that fact so that he didn't face a 'superior Mech' since no one else thinks it works anymore. If you go back through the thread on the Army List subforum, you'll see that during collaboration Mechanized wasn't even an option until months after 6th edition released--- those months were when meta-fear drove players away from Mech. Mechanized is viable in 6th. But Blood Angels do it the worst, since Assault Squads are now the worst 'Razorback Contents.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Mechanized is viable in 6th. But Blood Angels do it the worst, since Assault Squads are now the worst 'Razorback Contents.' I agree with most points, but not with this. I don't think anything has changed in this regard between 5th and 6th ed. Why no mention of Necrons? They are the (tomb) kings (in space) of medium range shooting, nobody beats them there. Anyways... good job in the tournament Mort! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koyote Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Congrats to my old friend Brin on the big win. ;) With that said, Brin should be ashamed of himself for the way he beat down that kindly old fella who played Orks. For heaven's sake, he's probably someone's grandfather. <_< Brin, you are one cold (S)ister (O)f (B)attle. Are there any other acts of callous indifference you wish to share with us? Kick any puppies lately? http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/10011970/New2/kickpuppy.gif :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 Also, Mort knew the meta he was going to face and was able to optimize for it. His gut feelings for the meta were correct and so he didn't face any Top-Tier Shooting lists such as Crowe Purifier spam, Coteaz Henchman Psyback spam, IG Plasmavet spam, or LongFangs/Razorbacks spam. If you go back through the thread on the Army List subforum, you'll see that during collaboration Mechanized wasn't even an option until months after 6th edition released--- those months were when meta-fear drove players away from Mech. 100% on your observations matey! Cant stress this above point enough!! Congrats to my old friend Brin on the big win. :tu: With that said, Brin should be ashamed of himself for the way he beat down that kindly old fella who played Orks. For heaven's sake, he's probably someone's grandfather. :) Brin, you are one cold (S)ister (O)f (B)attle. Are there any other acts of callous indifference you wish to share with us? Kick any puppies lately? :P :P :P He totally is a granddad :P But, he was above me in the national rankings, and across the table from me in the finals, so...had to give him the puppy treatment. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 Congratulations!! Great job on all the wins! Rather interesting to see rulebook missions in a Tournament--- Almost never see random-game-length in a tournament setting either. I found this very surprising!! I despise fixed turn games, and I think the reason GW did away with them was on account of last turn boosting contestations. I would be gutted to see a return to that. (Though in its defense, I guess it would potentially balance a shooty/alpha strike army?) Also, I am surprised that the tournies you do are non-rulebook. I only know of specialist tournies like Adepticon and Nova doing non-rulebook. The Throne of Skulls/GW affiliated tournies seem to be RB stuff. SA bases its tourney structure on the UK. When they moved to 1750 last year, so did we. (However we liked it so much, we didn't move back to 1500 when they did :blush: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Ah, I finally got around to reading this topic, and I'm sort of glad that it took me so long as some of the analysis has proven insightful. First and foremost, great job and congratulations on the victory! :P I gave you a little something (temporarily) to commemorate the achievement (I'm not going to tell you what it is - but astute members will notice. :P ) I'm surprised by the distribution of armies used, especially since I favor the "under" powered bog-standard Space Marine codex when I play in tournaments (which I never win - maybe there is a correlation). You guys have already provided good observations on the current army balances, far better than I ever could, so I'll just shut my yap about that. What I'd really like to hear about is all of the B&C swag that was instrumental in your victory. While your tactical acumen probably had something to do with you dominating the field of battle, we all know that you had to have some B&C stuff in your game play that really tipped the scales in your favor. :blush: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 Cheers matey!!! Really glad you enjoyed the read :blush: I was totally shocked by the lack of marines in this tourney. And those B&C dice saved my ass!!! *Off to search for this thing* Bro T - any missions, tactics, situations, lists or events that stood out or made you think or reconsider previously held views? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Bro T - any missions, tactics, situations, lists or events that stood out or made you think or reconsider previously held views? To be honest, I don't play enough competitively to really have any "previously held views." After all, I'm the guy that has played tournaments using the 3rd edition Space Marines and Imperial Fists rules (both underpowered) and used the 3rd edition Raven Guard rules to deep strike my entire force behind enemy lines after the rest of my side's players in the megabattle had been wiped out because it was "fluffy." I tend to play for fun/fluff, even when I'm playing in a competitive environment. Don't get me wrong - I'm trying my best to win, but it appears I'm not trying that hard. And while I tend to use the standard Space Marines, I'm not in any way averse to using other armies. However, I won't use any armies that I think are favored by the majority as tactically the "best" since I want any victory to be challenging, so you probably won't see me starting any GK/IG or daemons armies any time soon (though I might take GK as an ally for my Space Marines). I really enjoy reading batreps because I get to live out the playing side of the hobby vicariously through those of you that have (a) time, and (b) completely painted armies (I won't play unless my army is completely painted - I'm kind of a snob that way - so I really need to get my army finished). *Off to search for this thing* Tee hee! :blush: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnightmare Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Entertaining read as always Mort, thanks for sharing :) I have got to echo Brother Tylers comments in that I can't really bring any insightful tactical advice to the thread (like you really need it!)......but I can say your army looks sweet, yo! Congratz again, victory well deserved! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Admetus Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 I bet that poor Ork player can be found in a glass cage of emotion somewhere.... @Brother Tyler: I've spotted it, and I approve :). Lets see how long it takes our fearless leader to find out ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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